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Update Discussion Version 1.47 + Elementals

Pimpy

Conjurer
The numbers I used are solid, yours are somewhat confusing
I am sorry to confuse you, the standard production numbers can be found in Elvenar Wiki ;)

I am now at Halflings, in this chapter tier 3 can be upgraded.
My population is not enough to take all my Gem manu's to lvl 23, so I keep them at lvl 22 for now.
Did not build new houses.

In Elementals you do not have enough population to upgrade all Tier 1 to the lvl you wish?
Keep them at a lower lvl, they will still produce more than lvl 23.

You are going to upgrade all your houses anyway.
Upgrade the manu's to lvl 24.
Upgrade all the other buildings you like to upgrade.
Wait untill end of chapter and see how much pop is left to upgrade the Tier 1 further.

The costs are high?
Is that a problem once you are at the end of the chapter, where you most likely have to wait a while until next guestrace comes along?

I am looking forward to this chapter, with all its challenges. No fashionable grumpy word from me cuz things seem too hard :D
 
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LazyTony

Sorcerer
The problem is Pimpy, with every other factory upgrade tech, you make more per tile after the upgrade than before it (allowing for extra population). With the tier 1 upgrade tech in elementals, you are better off to keep your tier 1 at lev 23. Either way, upgrade or no, you will upgrade residences, and if you need more tier 1 you are better off building a new factory rather than upgrading. This is nonsense.

The above assumes regular residences, if you use 100% magical residences there is a tiny efficiency improvement, but it would take literally months before you made back the cost of the upgrade in sentient goods.
 

Pimpy

Conjurer
23 2320 per 18 tiles=128.88 per tile
24 2800 per 20 tiles=140 per tile
27 3520 per 20 tiles=176 per tile

Upgrade to lvl 24 does not need any sentient goods, so keep m there if you like, but production per tile does increase.
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
You haven't allowed for the extra tiles needed for the population.

I'll use your numbers.

Level 23 to level 24 requires 935 population. A level 29 regular residence has 2800 pop in 16 tiles (175 pop per square).
Level 23 to level 27 requires 3212 population. 3212/175 = 18.3 extra tiles of houses.

23 2320 per 18 tiles=128.88 per tile
24 2800 per 20 tiles (+ 935/175 tiles for pop which equals 5.3 tiles), a total of 25.3 tiles =110.6 per tile
27 3520 per 20 tiles + 18.3 tiles of houses, a total of 38.3 tiles = 91.9 per tile

Even if the cost of upgrading was zero, you are better off with an extra level 23 tier 1 than you are upgrading.
 

Diadal

Alchemist
The problem is Pimpy, with every other factory upgrade tech, you make more per tile after the upgrade than before it (allowing for extra population).
If you compare a level 8 elixer with a level 23 elixer, production is 5 times higher, it needs 11 times the population and requires 13 times the culture (basic, not the extra included to keep a higher bonus).After level 8 the output gets worse with every upgrade (goods/pop and good/square) if you include all space required.Most likely you can't maintain a high culture bonus, so you will need more/higher level workshops as well, also increasing the need for population.
 

Pimpy

Conjurer
That is why I said, you are going to upgrade the houses anyway, no matter where you use the new gained population for.
Imo you should not include -the resicence- tiles info. But that is just my opinion :D
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
Scenario 1: 8 Level 23 plank factories. Total Production is 8 x 2320 = 18560 planks.

Scenario 2: 5 Level 27 plank factories. Total production is 5 x 3520 = 17600 planks.

Scenario 1 space requirements: Factories - 8 x 18 tiles = 144. Population 3317 per factory. 8 x 3317 = 26544. 175 pop per tile from level 29 residence. 26544/175 = 151.68 tiles. Total 295.68 tiles.

Scenario 2 space requirements: Factories - 5 x 20 tiles = 100. Population 6529 per factory. 5 x 6529= 32645. 175 pop per tile from level 29 residence. 32645/175 = 186.5 tiles. Total 286.5 tiles.

In my Scenario 1 city, I make 18560/295.68 = 62.77 planks per tile dedicated to my plank factories and houses needed to support them.

In my Scenario 2 city, I make 17600/286.5 = 61.43 planks per tile dedicated to my plank factories and houses needed to support them.

Now, lets translate this maths into a city design strategy. I need sentient goods to progress through the chapter. I will still need to build lev 24 marble factories (my t4 boost is moonstone).

I will upgrade my houses to level 29, there is an obvious boost is population per square. How should I spend that extra population? The maths tells me I am better off building an extra level 23 plank factory than in upgrading my existing ones to level 27. Pimpy, the alternative to upgrading isn't having a lot of idle population. The alternative is building an extra level 23 plank factory.

@Diadal I'm afraid the calculation is more complicated than that, you need to calculate productivity per square, and I don't have the will do an elixir example :D

I will do the calculation for my last factory upgrade tech, the level 19 to 23 magic dust factory in the halflings chapter, for comparison.

In both scenarios we have level 27 halfling houses, 2200 pop, 15 tiles, 146.67 pop per tile.

Scenario 1: 5 Level 19 dust factories. Total Production is 5 x 6200 = 31000 dust.

Scenario 2: 3 Level 23 dust factories. Total production is 3 x 10096 = 30288 dust.

Scenario 1 space requirements: Factories - 5 x 20 tiles = 100. Population 3328 per factory. 5 x 3328 = 16640. 146.67 pop per tile from level 27 residence. 16640/146.67 = 113.45 tiles. Total 213.45 tiles.

Scenario 2 space requirements: Factories - 3 x 24 tiles = 72. Population 7076 per factory. 3 x 7076= 21228. 146.67 pop per tile from level 27 residence. 21228/146.67 = 144.73 tiles. Total 216.73 tiles.

In my Scenario 1 city, I make 31000/213.45 = 145.23 dust per tile dedicated to my dust factories and houses needed to support them.

In my Scenario 2 city, I make 30288/216.73 = 139.75 dust per tile dedicated to my dust factories and houses needed to support them.

_________________________________________________________________________

This is news to me, it seems (at least in these 2 examples) that we are actually making less per square with each new factory tech. It seems the advantage in upgrading isn't increased efficiency in production, only increased ranking points per square (and I don't care much about ranking). I was shocked when i saw the poor yield gains with elemental tier 1 factories, but perhaps this has been happening the whole time :D

Of course, when the extra pop per square from upgraded residences is included, you are better off than you were before you started the chapter. BUT, it seems taking advantage of the better residences, and keeping the lower level factory is more efficient. All the efficiency gains are from the residence upgrades, the factory upgrades are actually a step backwards.
 
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cwgiii

Necromancer
Of course, all of these calculations could improve with future chapters (tech tree advancements), AW structures, and/or event reward structures. Sometimes you must struggle through the swamp to get to the meadow on the other side.
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
AWs and event reward structures would not change the numbers. The mountain halls boosts a lev 23 factory by the same % as a lev 27 factory. And with event structures that give more population per square, the divisor in the total population required/population per square calculation just goes up for both the lower level and the higher level factory leading to the same answer relative to the alternative factory level.

Future technologies could change this ofc, (another upgrade tech) and I have only done the calculation for the last 2 factory upgrades that were available to me. But I suspect this is a formula used by Inno. The only way to be sure would be to do a a spreadsheet for all available levels. I will do this when I have time :)
 

Killiak

Shaman
Sometimes you must struggle through the swamp to get to the meadow on the other side.
At this point the meadow still has a sign saying "Under Construction", so fingers crossed!



That is why I said, you are going to upgrade the houses anyway, no matter where you use the new gained population for.
Imo you should not include -the resicence- tiles info. But that is just my opinion :D
If you are not going to use the population, then why use the space to build a residence?
Ergo; space and efficiency calculations for upgrading always need to include every tile used, be it production, population or culture
 

Pimpy

Conjurer
If you are not going to use the population, then why use the space to build a residence?
Off course I am going to use the population :D

Anyways for my city and gamestyle I will stick to what I had in mind (as I had planned in the layout of Elementals in the Architect.)
I do like some friendly competition between fellows, so rankingpoints are not useless to me.

Scenario 1: 8 lvl 23 marble factories.
Total production 8*2320=18560

Scenario 2: 8 lvl 24 marble factories
Total production 8*2800=22400

Scenario 1: 144 tiles +151.68=295.68 tiles
Scenario 2: 160 tiles +194.38=354.38 tiles

Scenario 1: 18560/295.68=62.77
Scenario 2: 22400/354.38=63.21

Ranking points
1: 34272 for manu
2: 43640 for manu (+3212 for res)

Increase in coins (for 12.45 res)
304.776 with 100% culture
1110 tier 1 cost in my wholesaler 222k

:D gotta luv dah numberz

cosmetic department.
Plus! I adore the look of the lvl 24 Marble factories ;)
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer

Herodotus

Dreamer
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xK6nX9OocxXUnu3q42GYKerqNqbgmSRq5RIh1Wi1em8/edit?usp=sharing

Elven planks factory at all available levels. As you can see, there is a performance upgrade all the way to level 23, level 24 is almost the same, and then above 24 it goes backwards.

Apologies for the bland presentation, my talents aren't in the cosmetic department. :D

If anyone can point out a mistake, I would appreciate it, because this is very upsetting :(
Excellent spreadsheet, illustrates the point perfectly, I'd guess the Devs hopefully did not MEAN to actively punish us for upgrading ?? (at great expense, too!) maybe some tweaking is in order !
 

Diadal

Alchemist
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xK6nX9OocxXUnu3q42GYKerqNqbgmSRq5RIh1Wi1em8/edit?usp=sharing

Elven planks factory at all available levels. As you can see, there is a performance upgrade all the way to level 23, level 24 is almost the same, and then above 24 it goes backwards.

Apologies for the bland presentation, my talents aren't in the cosmetic department. :D

If anyone can point out a mistake, I would appreciate it, because this is very upsetting :(
If you include culture, Tier 1 drops after level 19 and upgrading from level 15 to level 19 is hardly worth the efford.
Tier 2 drops after level 15 and upgrading from 9 to 15 is also very small.
Tier 3 drops after level 18 but upgrading from 8 to 18 is very small too.
In all cases the problem is the population needed ( production/population dropping to 30%) and the steep increase in culture.

I can run 5 elixer 8 compared to 1 elixer 23, same output, at roughly half the space.

Sometimes the one that created the swamp is the same person selling lifejackets.
 
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Pimpy

Conjurer
Oh Diadel, another nice quote from you too :D

On the other hand, if it comes to advantages.
The high amount of population needed for high lvl manu's give a boost to the working population, which gives a nice advantage to the Mountain Halls and Golden Abyss.
And MM spells are more attractive on larger manu's. (especially nice if your MA is at lvl5 and you produce 3 of those each day)

Glass is half full or half empty. You loose a bit here and gain a bit there, or no?
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
Pimpy, you would have the same working pop, it would just be split between more low level factories instead of fewer high level ones.

The MM point is valid. And pretty powerful, especially if boosted by the trade centre wonder.

As diadal has said, culture would drag it down too though, favouring low levels.

Enough spreadsheets for me today though :D