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Behind the Scenes: Battle Redesign

DeletedUser

Guest
Yup, so I've just tried it with one of my less developed cities where I am right where Inno thinks I should be in terms of provinces and guess what? Yup, still almost impossible to win a fight. 5 units of 24 against 2 units of 20 and I still lost. My units of 24 archers or sword dancers (which are supposed to be strong against sorceresses) kill max 4 sorceresses with each hit, whereas even the 16 remaining sorceresses kill all 24 of my archers in 1 hit!

Just about managed to win 1 battle with 5 units of 24 (archers and sword dancers) against one unit of 33 sorceresses. Again, despite my units in theory being strong against that particular enemy, I was only killing 2-3 with each hit and they were wiping out whole units each time. I *just* managed to win with only 7 troops (out of 120!) surviving.
 

DeletedUser363

Guest
up, so I've just tried it with one of my less developed cities where I am right where Inno thinks I should be in terms of provinces and guess what? Yup, still almost impossible to win a fight. 5 units of 24 against 2 units of 20 and I still lost.

I have an 'alter ego' further down the tech tree than me, who is just where they are supposed to be (in fact probably a bit behind) and they can't win the fights either o_O
 

Valnad

Spellcaster
I like the voice of reason.
But this doesnt make much sense.

The next stages will not do anything for the current problem.
New provinces are at least 3x as hard as they used to be. New units will not solve that.
Especially since they are not intended to do so.

In the end it will all work out. But it will take a VERY long time.

I understand the need for change. No change is bad. But bad change isnt good.

I agree with most of what you wrote, although I seriously doubt that it will all work out well in the end. In order for something to work out, you need to implement a plan and follow up on your key strategy. Go through a whole set of tests, collect data and then verify that data before you start to analyze it and eventually base your decisions from the trial results.

If the intention with this and previous updates was to achieve a better balance in the game, there would certainly have been at least one test run on the beta server where things that didn't work out would have been corrected, bugs would have been addressed and even more tests would have been initiated as a result of the first few failures?

Working with game balance is sort of like dancing. If all you (that would be the developer) ever do is to act on impulse and dash out in sudden bold moves that you've never tried before, then your partner - i.e. the players - will most likely slap you in the face and find someone else to dance with. Someone more intuitive. Because balance is never achieved by luck or impulse, nor is it achieved by one party alone. It is only ever achieved by all participating parties working together and the ones at the helm must have the experience to see what goes sideways and the wisdom to understand how to correct the faults. If a small tweak that you initially thought would do the trick still ends up breaking the game, then you need to have the dignity to roll back and start over, instead of acting on pride and not admitting your mistake. If you never accept that you've made mistakes then you'll never learn from them either.

The main problem with developing a game like Elvenar is the constant shortcomings of the "never ending game" concept. As long as the players' progress never resets, you will eventually always end up with a very loud and demanding crowd of advanced players who have been playing the game since the server launched (i.e for too long). Even if those players are arguably your most loyal consumers, they are also the most vocal and demanding ones. On the other side you will also have to deal with a heterogen group of reasonably new players who are nowhere near the first group, but yet they still need to feel that they might someday stand a chance of catching up with the rest of the community. Experienced and inexperienced players may have contradicting needs in many areas, so try focusing on what combines them. They all want a game that works, a game that provides some kind of enjoyment and interactivity.

However, if you decide to pilot your development ship with a skeleton crew who lacks the time and resources to roll out new content as fast as most players will be able to consume it, your only remaining option is to add more interactivity to the game. Let the players interact more with each other. That usually gives them more things to do and more ways to compete with one another.

I wouldn't mind seeing Elvenar being developed in a direction that pretty much contradicts my own best interests as an individual player. But that would require looking at the bigger picture and finding a light somewhere further down in that dark, long tunnel that we're entrapped in right now. I'm sorry, but I just can't see it. It's pitch black from where I'm standing.

Which brings us to another post I agree with; that it would be a more healthy choice to quit the game rather than staying as a disgruntled player who only complains all the time. That would definitely be the most rational thing to do. But sometimes players have invested themselves in the game so much that they stop acting rational. Some may have bought diamonds and are still unable to face the fact that it turned out to be such a poor investment, while others may have met friends that they fear losing if they quit the game. Or maybe they just invested a lot of time in building their cities and they don't want to give up just yet.

The psychological reasoning for staying in Elvenar can be compared to why some people put up with psychological abuse instead of leaving a destructive relationship (or workplace). You clinge on to hope and you decide to see the good and try as hard as you can to ignore all of the bad. Personally, I see it as an endurement test. A psychological experiement borderlining masochistic behaviour ;)

tl;dr version:

Dear developers,

We don't mind if you decide to kill your darlings, but please try not to murder the entire player community in the process.
 

DeletedUser2688

Guest
I've been playing the game for well over a year and never posted - I've registered specifically to add my voice so that its not just the usual people. The new battle system is hopeless - I know I'm one of those people who is probably far ahead of where Inno intended (277 provinces cleared, all squad sizes up to 26 completed) but any battles now have gone from being tricky to being impossible. I know what I'm doing with the fighting system and I'm fairly good at it which is how I've cleared so many provinces and regularly end up in the top 100 in the tournaments so its not tactics or lack of knowledge. My favourite part of the game has been taken away from me and unless the mercenaries (if and when they ever appear) massively rebalance things, the battling is over for me. Have I been playing too long? So much for loyalty. I'm saddened to see there are no moderator or Inno comments in this thread. It really wouldn't take much to rejig their algorithms to have smaller enemy squad sizes to make it playable again
 

DeletedUser1282

Guest
I've been playing the game for well over a year and never posted - I've registered specifically to add my voice so that its not just the usual people. The new battle system is hopeless ... It really wouldn't take much to rejig their algorithms to have smaller enemy squad sizes to make it playable again

Entirely agreed. In addition, elvenar was one of the few games that did not necessarily make fighting the centre part of the effort. Instead, benign, measured development of the city and trading were the staples of this game.
In my opinion, inno utterly failed. Rejigging the algorithms would indeed help. I have already left my excellent fellowship as I am ready to leave the game.
If this was "The Apprentice", my finger would now go up and state "The absence of any voices from INNO (!) shows your blatant disregard and disrespect for players. You are entirely arrogant and made some bad business decisions. You have failed the task - YOU ARE FIRED!"
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The new battle system is not impossible.
It is difficult, as it is not finished yet, there are 2 further stages.
In the next stage Humans and Elves will have access to the full range of Units that they need, and should find that a proper tactical analysis will improve their chances.

90% of players have never gotten much past the Tutorial, much less involved in the battle system. 90% of the remainder have concerned themselves more with gaining rank than developing their city. Rank is not an important part of this game as far as the developers are concerned, and I applaud them for that choice.

If you are seriously thinking seriously about quitting, please do. Don't just hang around here moaning about how bad it is, dampening the spirits of those who can see how good it is, even in its imperfection.

The new battle IS impossible for many people and is designed to be so until they reach the stage Inno has decided they ought to be at (i.e. stagnate until then). That has been clearly stated by the community managers.
Players that quit before finishing the tutorial don't count as players.
What makes you think the devs do not consider rank important? I highly doubt that or they would a) not have ranks and b) not be frantically imposing changes that progressively force everyone to move at the exact same pace and do the exact same things *unless* they buy diamonds.

If you think people who complain should quit the game, one could equally ask why you don't refrain from reading feedback threads in the forum you know will contain complaints. You can post your positive feedback and ignore the rest, very simple really.
 
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DeletedUser2707

Guest
I too am stuck in the middle unable to win a single fight on my main however I have been able to win ONE battle on the other server on my beginner (first tree) but that was loosing all but a few troops. I also notice that trading is MENTAL now because everyone wants goods to be able to negotiate there way through now instead of fighting, wow rough times ahead for us all. So I guess if this was the intention of the Dev's then you have succeeded at the expense of a few players I would imagine and all of our sanity's to boot.:(
 

DeletedUser2478

Guest
I can still enjoy other aspects of the game, but I feel I am being punished for being successful at combat and progression through the game. I cannot win a single battle. Not one. I read all of the tips and try to choose units that will be successful in the battle, but my units seem to do almost no damage while the enemy kicks my butt--every. single. time. I hope Inno rethinks this horrible change to the battle system or changes quest requirements to reduce the importance of succeeding in encounters.This most recent one, which requires us to"solve 11 encounters or produce Power of Provision 2 times" is just another punishment that unreasonably slows a person's progress.
 

DeletedUser1829

Guest
Below is a chart made by @varron that gives an idea of fight difficulty, the stars relate to the tournaments.

Varron_Province_difficulty_chart.png
 

DeletedUser2478

Guest
That would only be helpful if there were any battles that had any parity at all. There's none.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Out of morbid curiosity, I had a look. I am 151 instead of the 130 I "should" be at. The ratio is 1.8. I have pretty much zero chance, due to the mix of troops of the opponents. Mostly heavies with missile backup. Their missile backup is able to shrug off my missiles, I can't reach them through the heavies. No strategy will get you past that.

So yes, Inno has succeeded in reducing the options people have.
 

DeletedUser1829

Guest
Out of morbid curiosity, I had a look. I am 151 instead of the 130 I "should" be at. The ratio is 1.8. I have pretty much zero chance, due to the mix of troops of the opponents. Mostly heavies with missile backup. Their missile backup is able to shrug off my missiles, I can't reach them through the heavies. No strategy will get you past that.

So yes, Inno has succeeded in reducing the options people have.

Actually you are at the top end of the expected range for skilled fighters, based on posts by marindor. The 1 to 1:8 ratio is what the final tournament stage is at, so in theory we are meant to be able to beat it with skill, etc, etc (theoretical for most of us). Whether they will tweak this in the future I have no idea.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Actually you are at the top end of the expected range for skilled fighters, based on posts by marindor. The 1 to 1:8 ratio is what the final tournament stage is at, so in theory we are meant to be able to beat it with skill, etc, etc (theoretical for most of us). Whether they will tweak this in the future I have no idea.

Yet didn't they say the fighting was supposed to become "easier" and attractive to all. I did perfectly well with my former system of fighting and negotiating together, avoiding battles where I would lose or experience heavy losses. I probably don't count as "skilled", but I expect I was above average at it, especially considering a lot of people relied on autofight or attempted, before orcs, to avoid fighting altogether.

So now we can only reach the rune shard level of tournaments if we are one of the select few who - in a non fighting based game - have spent copious time studying and practicing the battle system in minute detail AND are at the stage of the game as regards expansions Inno desires, and that = the battle system being "more fun" and accessible to all? o_O

Honestly, I think people would complain a lot less if Inno just described things as they actually are instead of trying to use this political gibberish intended to make us believe something other than the truth.

Like having much less room for more buildings is "more fun", when literally almost every single thing you can spend money on in the game is designed to make people have more room or more value for the room they have. Who's going to believe premium content has the sole goal of making people have "less fun"? o_O The only thing you achieve by saying things are "more fun" when actually they are less fun, is that people get annoyed.
 

BekBel

Adventurer
Yet didn't they say the fighting was supposed to become "easier" and attractive to all. I did perfectly well with my former system of fighting and negotiating together, avoiding battles where I would lose or experience heavy losses. I probably don't count as "skilled", but I expect I was above average at it, especially considering a lot of people relied on autofight or attempted, before orcs, to avoid fighting altogether.

So now we can only reach the rune shard level of tournaments if we are one of the select few who - in a non fighting based game - have spent copious time studying and practicing the battle system in minute detail AND are at the stage of the game as regards expansions Inno desires, and that = the battle system being "more fun" and accessible to all? o_O

Honestly, I think people would complain a lot less if Inno just described things as they actually are instead of trying to use this political gibberish intended to make us believe something other than the truth.

Like having much less room for more buildings is "more fun", when literally almost every single thing you can spend money on in the game is designed to make people have more room or more value for the room they have. Who's going to believe premium content has the sole goal of making people have "less fun"? o_O The only thing you achieve by saying things are "more fun" when actually they are less fun, is that people get annoyed.
Well, to be fair, I think they actually said "easier to understand" you know, because of the battle pentagon thingy. Easier to know which unit to use against which enemies. But that doesn't necessarily mean easier to fight.
The "more fun" thing though is a bit grating to read isn't it? If it's more fun now, then I imagine the game was awful a few months ago and that's why everyone left months ago and came back after this battle update. Oh wait. That's not what happened at all.
 
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