Runeshard Changes

[C-Nymph]

[...] causing our players to get locked. It's terribly annoying when our member has posted in the KP swap threads and then cannot be donated to anymore.
Also, it seems that then donating KP elsewhere yourself, to balance out again, has a lesser effect on the balance! [...]

Edit: I just tested it with my fellows:
Receiving KP instants ALSO counts AGAINST your balance! Hunters just got double screwed over by Inno.

[...]So:
- are you very active in KP swap threads and receive multiple chests a day? You are screwed
- are you an active hunter receiving a lot of instants per day? You are screwed
-are you active in the swap threads because you are an active hunter? You are double screwed

@Silmaril Here's feedback for the devs; your system screws over people who play your game actively, and who play by the rules and put in a lot of fair effort to upgrade their AW's. It's a bad system right now, and Inno should remove any received KP instants counting against your balance.

It is indeed highly annoying and seems rather unfair.
And it seems weird too, as they always said hunting was not against the rules and was actually how the system was designed to work.
Yet now they suddenly do decide to change the system...

I bet you they are only doing this because they are receiving too many messages in support about people crying over hunting. Having push accounts is against the rules and they say this change is to prevent pushing, but I can see now that they are just trying to hit multiple birds with one stone, making their job easier and our lives harder...

 

[FieryArien]

- are you very active in KP swap threads and receive multiple chests a day? You are screwed

True. The KP swap threads system is quite unfair, because it doesn’t distribute the rewards evenly between players (I mean in ratio to used KP, not the same amount of KP to each player of course). The most active player gets the most of them and that also gives that player more “fuel” to keep being the most active player and keep getting the most.

But still, even as the most active swap thread participant in your fellowship - is the average daily amount you get from chests minus the average daily amount you give out using your own chests really that big?

 

[Killiak]

True. The KP swap threads system is quite unfair, because it doesn’t distribute the rewards evenly between players (I mean in ratio to used KP, not the same amount of KP to each player of course). The most active player gets the most of them and that also gives that player more “fuel” to keep being the most active player and keep getting the most.

A KP swap system based on threads can be unfair in terms of ratio, yes. However, it is fair in terms of KP given and KP received, because that is a zero sum exchange. As such, any chest you get is a net positive for the swapper. However, no matter which reward you receive, the instants will always count against your balance in this new update from Inno ....

But still, even as the most active swap thread participant in your fellowship - is the average daily amount you get from chests minus the average daily amount you give out using your own chests really that big?

First of, I received a literal 1.000kp from someone, randomly. This is now keeping me in the lock, because any effort I put into KP swapping in our threads puts me over the edge every time. Any hunting I do, puts me over the edge every time.
Secondly; we have a very active fellowship, and as such we have to refresh our swap threads every few days because the mail chain gets silly slow after it hits 200 messages. We actually have 6 mail chains going at any time, split up into 100, 50, 30, 20, 10 and 5 amounts.

So, to answer your question, for me personally; yes, the average daily amount for me actually is that big. I am swimming in thousands of KP I can swap, and give out/receive every day. Basically, anybody giving me anything for free just screws me over in this system.


Problem with the whole thing is.... is it a daily reset to zero? Does it slowly tick down every hour? Or is it a fixed amount every reset, or maybe a percentage based on your current balance? We just don't know.

Edit: What about KP (instants) from event buildings? Do those count against the balance too? @Silmaril we really need answers.

 

[FieryArien]

Problem with the whole thing is.... is it a daily reset to zero? Does it slowly tick down every hour? Or is it a fixed amount every reset, or maybe a percentage based on your current balance? We just don't know.

I try explaining one last time. It’s a system that checks that an account is not fed KP. That’s all. It’s a running balance of KP gained vs. KP given. There is no reset, no tick down every hour, no percentage, nothing complicated.

1) Every KP you give out counts positive to your balance. That includes the chests you “give out” when the KP bar in your wonder is finished.
2) Every KP you receive in your wonders counts negative in your balance. That includes the chests you receive when someone else’s wonder is finished and you scored on some spot with rewards there.
3) Obviously we couldn’t start with 0 balance, because that would be a great mess and a disaster. So everyone got assigned an initial positive balance. It was in order of low thousands and it guaranteed that no one, whose KP income and outcome is balanced, would run into any sort of lock on their account.
4) Also there is some daily allowance each of us accrue every day. Look at it as daily positive bonus placed into your balance every day. That further assures that balanced or just somewhat imbalanced play will never run into lock.

The fact extreme hunters were hit by this anti-pushing measure is a fact. Hunting that on daily average gives a player KP up to the “daily balance bonus” isn’t a problem. Fair KP exchange systems also don’t have problems.

 

[C-Nymph]

The fact extreme hunters were hit by this anti-pushing measure is a fact. Hunting that on daily average gives a player KP up to the “daily balance bonus” isn’t a problem. Fair KP exchange systems also don’t have problems.

The problem is that people are now dumping their kp bombs in random AWs of others in order to restore their balance, thereby causing a block for the other person. This is a very unwanted result, even for non-hunters and especially for people who just want to use the kp swap threads. I am very much looking forward to the day that most people run out of rune shards...

 

[Killiak]

I try explaining one last time. It’s a system that checks that an account is not fed KP. That’s all. It’s a running balance of KP gained vs. KP given. There is no reset, no tick down every hour, no percentage, nothing complicated.

KP instants you receive (from Chest rewards) count against your balance, so it is not just a matter of KP given/KP received. We tested this in my FS, and receiving an instant locked me out. I have no proof yet that chests that come out of my own AW's are good for my balance.

So can you PROVE any of these points? Did a dev tell you this, or did support tell you this? Or are these just assumptions you are making?

Also, assuming I get a daily allowance added to my balance then that is basically the same as a fixed amount reset.

 

[Alcaro]

So can you PROVE any of these points? Did a dev tell you this, or did support tell you this? Or are these just assumptions you are making?

You know very well that no dev. everrrrrr discussed anything with any player in any forum (might be exceptions but I am not aware of existing such)
Are not assumptions, are demonstrated with numbers in Beta forum. If you really want to know the numbers, just check Beta forum.
@FieryArien is trying to explain how this feature works but he doesn't have to prove you anything.

 

[Killiak]

You know very well that no dev. everrrrrr discussed anything with any player in any forum (might be exceptions but I am not aware of existing such)
Are not assumptions, are demonstrated with numbers in Beta forum. If you really want to know the numbers, just check Beta forum.
@FieryArien is trying to explain how this feature works but he doesn't have to prove you anything.

I am not playing on the Beta, I am playing on the EN server and am active on the EN forum. Having to check another forum, having to dig through pages and pages of posts, just to get information is another grand demonstration of Inno's lack of communication.
So if you are going to throw out 'look on beta forum', then at least provide me a link to the post.

And yes, he does. He is making statements in a discussion, therefor the burden of proof lies with him. Otherwise, his statements are nothing but opinion, which means I can't be sure of their validity.

 

[Alcaro]

ahmmm ... don't be so touchy
And NO, he doesn't. Attacking (maybe the word it's a bit strong but that's all what comes into my mind right now) a player who is trying to explain a thing will make him/ her to think twice before trying to help. Then you will have to wait until you'll see devs explanations in En forum.

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/runeshard-changes.17428/

 

[Killiak]

ahmmm ... don't be so touchy
And NO, he doesn't. Attacking (maybe the word it's a bit strong but that's all what comes into my mind right now) a player who is trying to explain a thing will make him/ her to think twice before trying to help. Then you will have to wait until you'll see devs explanations in En forum.

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/runeshard-changes.17428/

It has nothing to do with being touchy, and everything to do with being factual.
Yes, he does. That is how discussions work; Burden of Proof

Thank you for providing the link to said proof.
I have read up and can already tell this will make KP hunter's life miserable and require even MORE work to be able to hunt still.

But, like you yourself are saying in the beta forum; it is utterly insane and not normal that we have to rely on people who are handy with looking at code, and understand dev tools, just to get information on a change.

 

[Alcaro]

@Killiak
The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for its position.

I didn't realize it was a dispute and you and FieryArien are on opposite positions Naive me, I thought he was trying to provide information to En forum for those who can't access Beta forum. So, for the last time, since it's not a dispute, it's an information, he does not have to prove anything to anyone.
Kind regards,
Alcie

 

[Killiak]

@Killiak
The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for its position.

I didn't realize it was a dispute and you and FieryArien are on opposite positions Naive me, I thought he was trying to provide information to En forum for those who can't access Beta forum. So, for the last time, since it's not a dispute, it's an information, he does not have to prove anything to anyone.
Kind regards,
Alcie

You can try and be sarcasstic about it, but he was in fact taking an opposite position to me without explaining where his information was sourced from. Had he just posted the link you provided, the actual burden ya know, there would have been no argument.

So how about you take that patronizing attitude elsewhere? Maybe there is a discussion going on someplace, where you could butt into and act all high and mighty to one side there? Would be great, thanks.

 

[C-Nymph]

Basically, this is the end of hunting. Once you reach your kp receiver limit, it is only restored by 80kp per day. So if you were to use the swap threads and finish someone's AW and get for instance 50kp reward from a chest, that means you would only be able to receive another 30kp that day (that is not from a direct swap) before you are blocked and can no longer receive kp into your own AWs unless you manage to dump a bunch of kp in some other random player's AW to increase your kp credit and restore a bit of the balance. So say goodbye to hunting for more than 80kp in rewards each day, unless you plan on 'gifting' a large sum to someone without kp return, but that makes hunting absolutely useless...

This new system takes away all our freedom and kills the joy of hunting.

 

[Killiak]

This new system takes away all our freedom and kills the joy of hunting.

Yep. There is no longer a point to hunting. Everybody who still has a big positive KP balance just needs to build up an instant stack so they can swap out with people, and it's all equivalent exchanges from there. No point in gaining more KP.
You got a lot of KP from the tournament? Better put it towards your own AW's, because otherwise you run the risk of locking a Fellow (or somebody else)

Swap threads also become a problem, if you are very active, because you will get locked over time.

Play the game like Inno demands it from you, and there is only one way. What a horrible system.


Edit: The only way you can now 'hunt', is to find players who have nearly filled their AW and reliably take the top spot with the exact amount you will get from a Reward Chest, or a bit more if you also get Rune Shards.
The runes you get are now your real reward, and you can only invest them in your own AW's if you want to see a 'net gain'.

A massive cut down on hunting gains.

 

[Alcaro]

We are using Wonder Society system and I think we might be safer when it comes to keep balance between donation and receiving KPs. The Pile On system keeps us safe, but hunting might harm some players on long term and ruin that balance. We are trying to donate at least half from the chests' value (where is place, ofc).
Another situation I had encountered in Beta (where atm we use swap threads) is huge donations from outsiders, like hundred(s) of KPs. I just went to their place and donate the same amount of KPs/ runes. I can't balance donations/ received KP in other way.

 

[Killiak]

We are using Wonder Society system and I think we might be safer when it comes to keep balance between donation and receiving KPs. The Pile On system keeps us safe, but hunting might harm some players on long term and ruin that balance. We are trying to donate at least half from the chests' value (where is place, ofc).
Another situation I had encountered in Beta (where atm we use swap threads) is huge donations from outsiders, like hundred(s) of KPs. I just went to their place and donate the same amount of KPs/ runes. I can't balance donations/ received KP in other way.

We are checking all our Fellows now for their limits, and are setting up a sheet to keep track. If our system looks like it puts people into a danger of a Lock, we will have no choice but to change our system entirely.

I also checked the person who donated over a thousand KP to me.... their balance is nearly +19000!!!
So logically, they did this to a bunch of people. Honestly, I feel like they griefed me in the game.

 

[Sir Derf]

Question - If you are a hunter, have hit the limit on received AWKP, and you continue to hunt, spending small amounts while expecting to receive large returns from chests, what happens to those chest rewards? Do they disappear, or are the backed up and pending? Will you gradually get 80 AWKP a day from previously won chests?

 

[Herodite]

Lets try and keep this on topic guys. It's currently an emotive subject and whilst not everyone will agree, lets still try and keep it polite!

Kind Regards

Herodite.

 

[Sir Derf]

How do you check someone's balance?

 

[Killiak]

How do you check someone's balance?

In the Dev Tools (Ctrl + Shift+ i combo, in a browser), under the json. Either from someone's AW overview in their village, or by clicking the AW button in the fellowship overview.

Spoiler

Question - If you are a hunter, have hit the limit on received AWKP, and you continue to hunt, spending small amounts while expecting to receive large returns from chests, what happens to those chest rewards? Do they disappear, or are the backed up and pending? Will you gradually get 80 AWKP a day from previously won chests?

You still receive them right away, I checked and tested this.
Now that I am locked, my Fellows can no longer see my 'receiverKpLimit'. It's gone from the JSON.

In the meantime, I hunted a boatload, so that I can check tomorrow if I get put back at 80.... or that it secretly stores my negative balance and will lock me for a longer time. I think the Beta forum info said I will be locked for a longer time....