Runeshard Changes

[Skallywag]

It hurts Kp Hunting in the measure that KP hunters would lose their balance in how much KP they give vs how much KP they receive. Many hunters tend to give hundreds of KP every week to many targets, they would obviously lose balance and would see the new KP lock as soon their balance reach the limit.
...

When I posted that I didn't realize that the chests KP hunters earn get counted against their net totals. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying, but given this I can see how this change is also targeting KP hunters.

 

[OldHag]

I'm a bit hmm...grrr that I got locked out of my aws on day 2 of the new feature. I feel like I'm being treated like a cheat.

Day 1 I did a couple of rune shard swaps 100 for 100 - 50 for 50 etc
Day 2 I received 2 separate donations from 2 thoughtful fs mates for a total of 983kps
Day 3 Locked out - In the Red and can't complete my 0 sum upgrade.
Day 4 Back in the black and received 80kps into my upgrade and was put back into the red.

and on day 5, she rested.

That's fine, I can live with the above for a day or two, I understand the need for balance and tried to rectify my situation by donating small amounts of shards/kps to a few people. I didn't want to donate too many to any one person as I don't want to lock up another player.

Having done that, I couldn't tell if I had rectified my situation or not as the aw owner doesn't receive any kind of notification, only donators are notified they can't currently donate.

Why isn't the aw owner notified of their status, I had to ask my fs mates (too many times) to check for me.

Talking of balance, how about a set of scales or a dial or a meter perhaps, something to show us our how off balance we are, without showing actual numbers.

 

[Killiak]

I woke up today, checked my receiver limit.... 4.

So it does keep track of a negative balance. Which means I am still wrecked for days to come, unless I go out now and drop a stupid amount of Abyss and Monastery runes on other players, having to find lots and lots of them so that I at least not screw them over like somebody did me.

What a great system....

 

[Jake65]

I'm a bit hmm...grrr that I got locked out of my aws on day 2 of the new feature. I feel like I'm being treated like a cheat.

Day 1 I did a couple of rune shard swaps 100 for 100 - 50 for 50 etc
Day 2 I received 2 separate donations from 2 thoughtful fs mates for a total of 983kps
Day 3 Locked out - In the Red and can't complete my 0 sum upgrade.
Day 4 Back in the black and received 80kps into my upgrade and was put back into the red.

and on day 5, she rested.

That's fine, I can live with the above for a day or two, I understand the need for balance and tried to rectify my situation by donating small amounts of shards/kps to a few people. I didn't want to donate too many to any one person as I don't want to lock up another player.

Having done that, I couldn't tell if I had rectified my situation or not as the aw owner doesn't receive any kind of notification, only donators are notified they can't currently donate.

Why isn't the aw owner notified of their status, I had to ask my fs mates (too many times) to check for me.

Talking of balance, how about a set of scales or a dial or a meter perhaps, something to show us our how off balance we are, without showing actual numbers.

I definitely agree with some kind of balance bar both on our own "Ancient Wonders" screen and on others "Ancient Wonder Help".
How much must I give to restore my balance and how much can they receive to not throw their balance out too much?

 

[Killiak]

I woke up today, checked my receiver limit.... 4.

I went ahead and put in a massive effort, going through something like 6 fellowships, making sure I didn't reduce anyone's balance by more than a net 100. Also finished a load of Ancient Wonders.

And now I am at:

That was horridly annoying.

 

[MinervaOz]

No Beta players in my FS. So any communication there didn't make it to us in the EN world. However, because you obviously are on the Beta forums, your FS, unlike ours and others, was able to prepare for this change.

.

No need to read the Beta forum, there was extensive discussion in this forum, in the News from Beta section. The information was accessible to everyone.

Though I don't disagree that agree some advance warning would have been helpful

 

[Laurelin]

Since this is a change of [sub]-topic, and for the sake of full disclosure: I'm not a KP hunter myself, and my FS's KP swap system usually means that our AW Chests/Runes go to other members of the FS in any case - so neither my own FS nor I are directly affected by the problems which the new system seems to be causing for those who are active KP hunters. However, I do have in-game friends who are hunters (and/or 'fishers'), so I can see both sides of the KP-hunting argument (while not taking either side), although I can see how this change could certainly disadvantage more active hunters.

That said, though, I definitely agree with others in that InnoGames really should (better late than never?) provide a full and easily comprehensible explanation of the new system, ideally via the in-game 'Post Horn' which all players can readily access, since so much confusion surrounds the topic - as indeed it initially did on the Beta Server, too (and still does for some, I would imagine), and also because this new system really isn't at all intuitive, to say the least. I've always been of the opinion that any notable changes to any computer game should be communicated clearly and transparently to all of its players by the developers, especially in the case of quite major changes like the one we're discussing here, so I don't agree that any player on any Live Server should need to check the Beta Forum for any reason at all, not least because (in Elvenar's particular case):

(a) Beta players are volunteers - albeit usually well-informed ones - who are not always given any more information about incoming changes than are Live Forum readers. Not being official Inno representatives, they may therefore have differing understandings of, or views upon, any given changes;

(b) Inno always accompanies all game changes/additions which appear on the Beta Server with a clear statement that everything on the Beta Server is subject to change (whether with or without notice) when released to Live - if it is even released at all; and

(c) Inno themselves have stated, in the past, that fewer than 0.2% of the playerbase ever visits even Elvenar's Live Forums, with even fewer than that, of course, visiting - and fewer still contributing to - the Beta Forum (and I'd say that 0.2% is an over-estimation, especially for mobile-only players).

ETA (sorry, missed this post at first):

No need to read the Beta forum, there was extensive discussion in this forum, in the News from Beta section. The information was accessible to everyone.

True, although the same caveat applies regarding whether or not even well-informed Beta players may either not fully understand (no insult meant!) or, more probably, not all agree upon incoming changes to the game, as does my point above about the possible mutability of Beta game content; and in addition, an unknown percentage of players will also avoid the 'News from Beta' section because it carries a 'spoilers' warning.

On a second point already made above - I'm also very much in favour of an in-game 'meter' of some kind being added to AWs, so that all of us have a quick and easily understood reference point when it comes to our AW KP in/out donations 'balance' - rather than leaving the situation as it is, whereby only those few who are tech-savvy enough to use their browser's development tools have any kind of useful knowledge as to their 'balance' (although much respect to those who can do so!).

* * * * * * * *

In addition to the above, I can foresee a few potentially detrimental but more long-term effects which this new system may cause but which have yet to be discussed in this thread, but since I tend to write at length when I actually have something to say which matters - at least to me! - and since the possible problems I anticipate may or may not even actually materialise, I'll save all that for a future post; both more data and more time are needed.

 

[schadenfreude]

It is weird that it took a lot of hardcore committed tourneying for 2yrs to get my wonders over 20 and overnight, the smaller cities all have really high wonders. It's good for the group, I suppose, but I get a vibe this will come at a price of some "rebalancing" down the road if chap 4 cities can have maxed out wonders almost overnight.

 

[Giraffi]

Chapter 4 cities with maxed out AWs will have a horrible time playing. I hope others are sensitive to this and don’t take them to a place they should ideally only achieve in later chapters when their armies are bigger and stronger.

 

[Skallywag]

No need to read the Beta forum, there was extensive discussion in this forum, in the News from Beta section. The information was accessible to everyone.

Though I don't disagree that agree some advance warning would have been helpful

Good point, I could have read that section had I known about it.

Or...Inno could have just made an in-game announcement.

 

[Skallywag]

Chapter 4 cities with maxed out AWs will have a horrible time playing. I hope others are sensitive to this and don’t take them to a place they should ideally only achieve in later chapters when their armies are bigger and stronger.

New players won't know the ramifications of that, they will max out their AW's, then wonder why their tournament play is so hard, get frustrated and not do the tourneys or just quit.

 

[Skallywag]

...That said, though, I definitely agree with others in that InnoGames really should (better late than never?) provide a full and easily comprehensible explanation of the new system, ideally via the in-game 'Post Horn' which all players can readily access, since so much confusion surrounds the topic - as indeed it initially did on the Beta Server, too (and still does for some, I would imagine), and also because this new system really isn't at all intuitive, to say the least.

I completely agree with your post. They don't have to give out the exact formula, but they owe it to players to explain at least at a high level how this system is working.

On a related note, a member from my FS opened a ticket with support with questions about this system. The response from support included this line:
"The points that you are getting from the Ancient Wonder chests are not in play here, only the ones that you are physically donating to another or having donated to you."

I believe that statement is incorrect, based on testing @Killiak did. Following what he did with the browser to determine the receiverKpLimit, I finished off an AW of another player and checked before and after values. The numbers matched exactly with what @Killiak predicted - the AW KP rewards you receive into your inventory count against you.

My point being, back to communication. It seems the communication isn't even clear with the support folks.

 

[Killiak]

New players won't know the ramifications of that, they will max out their AW's, then wonder why their tournament play is so hard, get frustrated and not do the tourneys or just quit.

Depends on the AW's they placed. It's just too bad Inno doesn't tell them this. Secret formula's and systems you know.

When I started, years ago, various strategies were still possible. You could be full military, or go for being a merchant, or even mix it up and it all would work. This was before Orcs even popped up as a barrier to stop people from playing small villages but scouting a lot.
Slowly, but surely, the game has turned into a 'one way to play' type system. You deviate from this course, and a newer player will unknowingly make their game a lot harder for themselves.

I don't feel that it has been a positive development, and this just adds to that. For me personally, anyway, as I can't speak for others.

I believe that statement is incorrect, based on testing @Killiak did. Following what he did with the browser to determine the receiverKpLimit, I finished off an AW of another player and checked before and after values. The numbers matched exactly with what @Killiak predicted - the AW KP rewards you receive into your inventory count against you.

My point being, back to communication. It seems the communication isn't even clear with the support folks.

That statement is indeed incorrect, and the Beta findings also confirm this.

I can, however, inform you that event building KP does not count against you, no matter if it is instant or bar-KP. So rejoice, because it could have been worse.

 

[Herodite]

@Skallywag Im not entirely sure about the KP in your Inventory counting towards this. I've also asked the question and been assured that the KP in ones inventory does not create any imbalance. I have an inventory full of KP, and with what you are saying, it should therefore place me at an immediate disadvantage however, I haven't met any restrictions...

Kind Regards

Herodite.

 

[schadenfreude]

Chapter 4 cities with maxed out AWs will have a horrible time playing. I hope others are sensitive to this and don’t take them to a place they should ideally only achieve in later chapters when their armies are bigger and stronger.

I agree with @Killiak. It's going to depend on the wonders you put. GA and Needles can only help you.

 

[Killiak]

@Skallywag Im not entirely sure about the KP in your Inventory counting towards this. I've also asked the question and been assured that the KP in ones inventory does not create any imbalance. I have an inventory full of KP, and with what you are saying, it should therefore place me at an immediate disadvantage however, I haven't met any restrictions...

Kind Regards

Herodite.

No no, he means the KP Instants you receive from Ancient Wonders and those that are given in reward to others when one of your own Ancient Wonders research bar is filled up.

The first counts against your balance, the second increase your balance. This is why this update pretty much destroys active KP hunting.

 

[C-Nymph]

This is why this update pretty much destroys active KP hunting.

And in the long run will put an end to the very usefull kp swap threads, because if you actively use those (which is a FAIR system because you give as much as you receive, with a chance of a little extra from a chest), you could end up decreasing your balance to zero over time.

 

[C-Nymph]

I am just very saddened because this new balancing system is a very anti-social development...

I remember we had a fellow who had accidentally deleted a high level AW and we helped rebuild it for them by donating thousands of kp's, every fellow chimed in! Well, that is history, because we would now run into the receiverKpLimit-cap!
Also no more handing out rewards in the form of KPs for fellows who do something extra for the fellowship, because in the long run it will only hurt them...
No more giving away free KP to fellows because you created some kind of fun contest within the fellowship... Those fun prizes will only hurt their balance in the long run, so you just stop doing that altogether...

In the end, we will all end up just filling our own AWs, because at least there's no limit to adding kp into your own AWs... But how is that in any way social? Isn't this game supposed to be a fun collaborative game??!

How on earth does Inno think this insane balancing horror of a rule is a good and positive development??

 

[schadenfreude]

I am just very saddened because this new balancing system is a very anti-social development...

I remember we had a fellow who had accidentally deleted a high level AW and we helped rebuild it for them by donating thousands of kp's, every fellow chimed in! Well, that is history, because we would now run into the receiverKpLimit-cap!
Also no more handing out rewards in the form of KPs for fellows who do something extra for the fellowship, because in the long run it will only hurt them...
No more giving away free KP to fellows because you created some kind of fun contest within the fellowship... Those fun prizes will only hurt their balance in the long run, so you just stop doing that altogether...

In the end, we will all end up just filling our own AWs, because at least there's no limit to adding kp into your own AWs... But how is that in any way social? Isn't this game supposed to be a fun collaborative game??!

How on earth does Inno think this insane balancing horror of a rule is a good and positive development??

Not necessarily. It will be up to the nature of individual players in the FS. Part of our wonder building frenzy is because some cities gave away their runes without asking for a single KP back. 100% free KPs with no strings attached. They might be large cities with maxed out wonders already so have no need for those runes or cities that have no intention of building a certain wonder. They see the benefit of helping our smaller cities along to fight better and gain more pop, etc., which would overall benefit the entire FS if they are able to go deeper in tourney or Spire, etc. Others chose to use theirs in the pile-on system, which we track and credit.

 

[C-Nymph]

Not necessarily. It will be up to the nature of individual players in the FS. Part of our wonder building frenzy is because some cities gave away their runes without asking for a single KP back. 100% free KPs with no strings attached. They might be large cities with maxed out wonders already so have no need for those runes or cities that have no intention of building a certain wonder. They see the benefit of helping our smaller cities along to fight better and gain more pop, etc., which would overall benefit the entire FS if they are able to go deeper in tourney or Spire, etc. Others chose to use theirs in the pile-on system, which we track and credit.

Yes but large cities "helping out smaller cities" by donating large amounts of free kps, they are actually screwing over those small cities because their balance will go down very fast and soon those small cities will no longer be able to receive any more help from other people because their AWs will be blocked from receiving more kp. So much for 'helping' smaller cities... Donating rune shards as kp count just as much towards destroying the balance as do kp instants!