Paladestar
Enchanter
Multiple Fire Phoenixes is so broken. Totally unfair. Inno should have limited all evolving buildings with a feeding effect to one of each type in the interests of balance/fair play.
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Discussion News from Beta (may contain spoilers!)
- Thread starter Muf-Muf
- Start date
Multiple Fire Phoenixes is so broken. Totally unfair. Inno should have limited all evolving buildings with a feeding effect to one of each type in the interests of balance/fair play.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
Only if you combine his beta and his main city together lol.
It's only 2 per city but yeah it's broken. just like multiple bears are.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
It't not in there interest, getting 2 fire phoenixes costed a lot and a lot of diamonds.
and we are not talking about 10 euro, more like 100-200 euro.
Bears was a different story with the unlimited quests issue, but they learned from that
what about coldifre phoenix, moonbear, and the snow owl for example would you really care if anyone had 4 of those?
What about those who do not care and just want a nice big zoo, and are willing to pay for it should they be stopped?
I have said many times before, the best way is to flood the servers with pets, at some point the limit is not how many and which pets you havem, but how many pet food you can aquire and use.
On the other hand I would hate that, I like my bears that I have more then the competition, since the new tournament changes my city needs
the bears are my only advantage left to survive in this field of carnage right now. haveing that advantage eliminated by to many good pets would really destroy my last foothold.
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Gargon667
Mentor
Are you sure about that? 100-200 sounds far to cheap, i would add another 0 to that. We just had a Black Friday special for a Mermaid at 100 Euro lol, a fire Phoenix for the same prize? What a steal!
But a bit more serious, I am not quite sure anymore how the mechanics for extra birds worked, but I think the only way was to actually but more event currency? Then use that currency through the chests and move the 20 steps to the next grand prize. And actually the 20 was increased to 30 after the first round. Unless there was an alternative way to pay for artifacts directly I think there is no way you could have gotten enough artifacts through the event by simply purchasing 100-200 Euros worth of currency. If last years Black Friday sale is any indication, i think 1 artifact went for 100 Euros (right?), so 1 extra bird 900 Euros...
Bears was a different story with the unlimited quests issue, but they learned from that
what about coldifre phoenix, moonbear, and the snow owl for example would you really care if anyone had 4 of those?
What about those who do not care and just want a nice big zoo, and are willing to pay for it should they be stopped?
I have said many times before, the best way is to flood the servers with pets, at some point the limit is not how many and which pets you havem, but how many pet food you can aquire and use.
They did learn from the mistake with unlimited bear, but unfortunately made the wrong choice. Instead of limiting the quest line, they should have limited the number of bases to 1.
I was previously also thinking that the option of flooding the server with pets would work to make Pet Food the limiting factor. However I do not believe anymore it would work. The Pets are too powerful, everyone who knows how to use them would be playing a completely different game from everyone who does not. The game would have to be balanced for one of these groups. If it is balanced for people that know what they are doing would result in the other group never getting any pet food at all. If the game was balanced for people that don´t know, would mean near unlimited pet food for players that do know. Unlimited Pet Food and unlimited Pets would lead instantly to far higher tourney scores than we ever had in the old tourneys.
I take my city as an example, I have between 200 and 300 Pet Food in the inventory right now (add a bunch of Pet Foods that I just waste for the fun of it on occasion). I need 1 Pet Food per week for my Firebird, so without creating a single more Pet Food I can feed 5 Firebirds for a year! I am sure I can make another 250 Pet Food in a year, so that would be sustainable. Trying to balance that is basically impossible unless you seriously reduce the amount of Pet Food handed out by the game, and you know how much people already now complain about not getting enough lol.
So no I think that will not work, it would be much easier to reduce the number of bases to 1. On top of that making it easy for everybody to get the artifact to upgrade them would make this the easiest way of balancing the game.
One step further would be to only allow 1 pet to be fed at any given time. I personally would be happy to give up my multi bear feedings for the sake of fairness to future players, but I don´t think this will happen, because of people who payed for getting those multiple pets.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
Well such a change would be the instant end of my elvenar career, as said, the only way I survive atm are my multiple pets. if thats take away, everyone will pass me left and right in the tournaments and I would have a hard time reach top 50 and over time fade out of the t100.
I could live with such a change if the reversed the tournament formula madness they created.
Gargon667
Mentor
As I said it won´t happen... too many people payed money for multiple birds.
The dumb tourney formula should be changed in any case, but if it can be used to convince all the multibird people, that would be killing 2 birds with 2 stones lol. Oh my how awesome Elvenar could be just thinking about that
Far Reach
Conjurer
By "people who know what they are doing" I assume you mean people who are prepared to spend diamonds flipping the Magic Academy crafter. I can think of a few ways of balancing that, although Inno would presumably want to be careful not to reduce a revenue stream.
One option to be to prevent certain key options (specifically pet food and military boost buildings) from appearing when the player uses diamonds to trigger a reset.
Another (probably more reasonable) option would be to dramatically reduce the probability of such buildings appearing if they've come up within (say) the previous 48 hours. This would mean that a player can always use diamonds to give themselves an edge, but not to obtain an overwhelming advantage.
Deleted User - 1759805
Guest
LOL, I am sure people are spending diamonds to see more Winter Shrines or 5x relics packs. This will basically kill diamond refresh -> no spending on this feature.
Similar to the above. If someone wants to buy themselves the first place, let them. They can do it today, but this is extremely expensive and there are no indications that this is happening in the real world. I mean, someone could have bought 100x Armorers on sale at 800 diamonds, or keep flipping MA and getting 10x UUU per week etc. You can buy enough boosts to get in the first place if you have unlimited resources. This is unlikely to change, and I don't see a reason why Inno should prevent it. The cost is prohibitive enough factor.
Gargon667
Mentor
I am flipping the MA over occasionally yes (mostly during the FA for badges), but I have done it occasionally as well because there are not many uses for diamonds nowadays. But that is not really what i meant with people that know what they are doing.
I think you generally overestimate what people know about the game, just because 25 people in 5 tourney oriented FS per server know that the firebird is a hundred times more powerful than the other 2 birds, doesn´t mean everybody does. And even in those FS you find people that have no firebird for one reason or another. And what´s that? the top percentile? Then add the odd top players in other FS to that and you have basically everybody. But the fact that let´s be generous 5% of players know how good the firebird really is does not change the fact that it would be completely imbalancing the game if I had 5 birds. 95% of people would not have 5 birds. and either the game becomes unplayable difficult for them or ridiculously easy to become pointless for the 5%. Maybe yes after a while 50% of people get the point and would get 5 firebirds, they probably still would not be active enough to feed them, yet they would still have to compete in the same tourney. Impossible to balance.
What i am saying is, the only way to balance the firebird (or brown bear or any future powerful pet) is to limit the number possible to have, not the number of pet food for feeding them.
Pauly7
Magus
I don't think getting a second Fire Phoenix would have to have been as massive a financial outlay as you think. If I could go back and do it again, knowing what I know about the impact, I would have gone all out for the second one. If I recall rightly, back then event currency was given out in the mystical object chests. OK, this would take a lot of hindsight, but anyone who had enough of those collected up could have given themselves a big advantage. I think people were going beyond 20 artefacts with normal play and a bit of luck. If you'd collected several event currency packages from the MO, then perhaps spent £20 when the offer of event currency appeared towards the end of the event... then maybe you could have made your way towards 30 artefacts. Then it would just be a matter of collecting the second base and you're set.
Well, quite a few people found out how this was done, and I'm sure they didn't all spend the hundreds (or thousands?) that has been suggested to get there.
Well, quite a few people found out how this was done, and I'm sure they didn't all spend the hundreds (or thousands?) that has been suggested to get there.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
You could with normal play get ~1 phoenix. thats 9 artefacts
For 2 firebirds you need 27 artefacts + 1 prize.
the questline gave 5351 essence
the daily quests 980
And with the outpost you could get ~55 with 28 days = 1540
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7871 essente tops
This rewarded you ~8-13 artefacts depending on your luck.
But we need 27+1 grand prize to unlock a second firebird.
This means to get another fire bird base plate you need at least to double that.
which means openenin 185 chests or more. remember this was the first event we got bonus event currency in chests.
Spire did not exist so people where starving for spell fragments, and CC was less common. since no bonus CC nor spire libraries, and crafting itself was only ~6 months old, remember the time when people asked innogames to improve the spell fragment gain from the spire, and they did remove some coin and supply boosters in favor of spell fragments.
So I think we can a live world 2 fire birds without spending money "busted"
For beta it's a different thing, at the introduction at beta's coldfire event there was a bug, this allowed to get 2 fire bird base plate recipes in the academy at the same time. So it was an option to destroy your bird, cycle for 2 plates, use some spare artefacts from the previous year. en waste 300 chests you saved, and all free diamonds including the spire to get enough artefacts for 2 phoenixes.
but this was fixed in 2 days or so and never saw live as far as I know.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
I have seen people flipping the recipes for unit and time boosters to win the tournaments more than once.
It surely happens and will happen.
As for the 800 diamond offer for a dwarven armorer, that one was accompanied by a 1/1 so you could only buy one. only time boosters and the other prize in the right corner was "unlimited" all the others has a 1 time purchase limit.
Gargon667
Mentor
Of course it happens and why not? There has to be some use in having diamonds after all?
If everything else you can do with your diamonds makes you worse at tourneys at least have a chance to make up for it lol...
I didn´t know the 800 diamond offer was a 1 only offer, guess it´s not a bad idea, but at 800 I find it too expensive anyway. MA flipping looks like a better deal to me. Of course overall the diamond price of MA flipping can be discussed, but I personally find it rather acceptable, not too cheap not too expensive.
As @MinMax Gamer said, if you make the option much worse (no matter if by lowering the probability of getting good stuff or by raising the price too much) it is the same as simply removing the option. Sure I can live without it, but what on earth am I going to spend diamonds on then? Pointless Premium Culture buildings? Expansions that make my tourney worse? I cannot upgrade Magic buildings (or event building through RR spells) any more, because I don´t play chapters, because they make my tourney worse. For the same reason I do not need more Magic buildings at all (I keep them in the inventory already). if you take away the MA option, I have absolutely no more use for diamonds at all, except for maybe buying badges in the FA directly, what a horrible waste of diamonds and you know how much people are going to complain about pay-to-win then. Even though I only spend diamonds that the game constantly throws at me lol.
Gargon667
Mentor
I´d say those numbers are way off. 20 artefacts with normal play? not even close. If that was the case everybody would have built 2 birds! 1 Fire and 1 other. Nobody I know has built more than 1 bird before the second phoenix event. Are you suggesting everybody has kept 10+ Artifacts in their inventory? I bet you that is not the case.
On my server I know exactly 1 town with more than 1 bird (before coldfire), this town has had 5 fully upgraded birds 2 fire, 2 storm and 1 gold, which means minimum 45 artifacts, i would bet you any amount of KP or diamonds you want that this was not achievable with triple digits.
MO were not a thing back then, nobody had any saved up because it was the first ever evolving building where such a thing would have made sense. Saving MOs has only become a thing rather recently when all the prizes had become mediocre. And now they never offer the option anymore...
CrazyWizard
Shaman
I thought 800 was a fine price, and if it was possible to buy dozens of them I am sure some would have pulled the trigger.
+HP is the most powerfull unit boost as it boosts everything, and 16 flips will never guarantee you 2 UUU or anything close.
As for the game, I feel with you.
Because I to am stuck right now, I did unlock the new chapter yesterday, but that was because in update 1.18 they unlocked premium buildings on the very first research. and that actually did make sense to unlock. it's a very small pain if you do own blue buildings to unlock and create a lot more room in your town because of improved magic buildings. this allows me to place more armouries which in turn allow me to use my brown bears more effective.
But thats how far i'll go in the current format.
Gargon667
Mentor
remember that after the first 9 (or so) artefacts the requirement for every grand prize went up from 20 to 30 feathers (or whatever secondary unit it was).
also the outpost already costs money to buy. So that is already paying part, even though it is the best value for money. Buying additional primary currency, would have been a much worse deal. I fI remember correctly you got dozens or hundred of them, not thousands, but I might be off there.
Gargon667
Mentor
Of course! I have done the same in chapter 16. It´s not about what chapter you are, but how many techs you do, so doing 1 additional tech for tons of useful upgrades is a good idea. The only downside is quest requirements, but since you don´t do FAs, that is of no interest to you.
If I could though I would go back to half way through chapter 15...
Pauly7
Magus
Yeah that's true. I forgot that part.
Just buying the currency is a horrific deal, but there's always that special offer that comes in during the last couple of days of the event. I can't remember what it would have been, but much better. It may even have been extra event currency whilst purchasing diamonds.
I didn't imagine you could have done this without spending diamonds, but I didn't think the outlay would be so massive, but perhaps you guys are right. Still... if we are saying you would need an extra 7,800 event currency to get over the line, I'm sure you could've made a dent in this with the MO free currency.
Hmm, 30 feathers instead of 20 does make it another 33% more expensive than I was thinking.
The other element is what was coming out of the three chests. I know the quests weren't unlimited, but things could change in a hurry if you got lucky with the 500 extra currency prize.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
I forgot about the increase in price indeed, so it's even worse lol.
you are talking about impossible odd, like 1 in a billion or worse.
Is it possible? off course but does it make sense to assume that person was a 1 in a billion or worse person?
not really.
Some people who claim to be "play free" are often not. for some reason they hide the fact that they spend hundreds of whatever currency like the plague. to them it's all luck. I have seen other people being really down because of such claims as they felt they were unlucky.
btw karvest informed me there was another bug on beta that allowed you to get more base plates of the fire phoenix. but that did not went live.
you are talking about impossible odd, like 1 in a billion or worse.
Is it possible? off course but does it make sense to assume that person was a 1 in a billion or worse person?
not really.
Some people who claim to be "play free" are often not. for some reason they hide the fact that they spend hundreds of whatever currency like the plague. to them it's all luck. I have seen other people being really down because of such claims as they felt they were unlucky.
btw karvest informed me there was another bug on beta that allowed you to get more base plates of the fire phoenix. but that did not went live.
Laurelin
Sorcerer
... and this is the most likely reason why Event Currency no longer appears in the Mystical Object - rather than that decision being related, as has been suggested, to the complaints of [some] players who felt/still feel that the MO presence of Event Currency reduced their chances of winning Diamonds. Assuming that Elvenar follows the pattern of most similar F2P games, it is very probable that Events are InnoGames' best source of revenue (closely followed by the game's competitive elements), and the total value of purchases which would not be made due to some players winning even modest amounts of Event Currency (let alone as much as 500 at once!) is likely to be significantly greater, overall, than may be immediately apparent.
There are three main reasons for this, founded upon on the same 'rules' of psychology and human behaviour, which apply to almost all F2P games:
1. Many players who are fairly new to (and/or not familiar with the dynamics of) F2P gaming often do not realise - until after they have spent money in order to achieve X or Y in-game advantage, which they had thought would be at least reasonably permanent - that the revenue model of most such games relies on the fact that there will never be a point where one's investment can be considered 'finished' and/or one's advantage 'permanent' - and some people, depending on their disposition, find this unexpected realisation difficult to admit to themselves and/or others;
2. Those players who do understand that 'paid advantage' in F2P games is maintained through repeating, open-ended investment, rather than one-off or at least limited finite payment(s), are often not willing to admit (again, to themselves or others) how much they have spent on something which will, by its nature, always be intangible, and will eventually cease to exist altogether when the game reaches the end of its profitable life; and
3. Competitive [paying] players who maintain the image of winning through skill and dedication alone are (quite obviously) very unlikely to admit that their achievements are - at least partly - financially assisted, much as athletes will never voluntarily admit to using performance-enhancing drugs.
Most F2P gamers who will happily agree that they spend moderate sums of money are those whose rationale (whether stated or not) is either 'in order to support the game/company/developers' or 'because it's my hobby, and most hobbies usually cost money'... although [virtually] the only players who will overtly state that they spend a lot of money are those who particularly admire the game's graphics/lore (as opposed to its mechanics or competitive elements) and/or so-called 'completionists', who will sometimes even make a self-deprecating joke out of the fact that although such things are intangible and impermanent, they cheerfully spend money in order to satisfy their 'collector's urge' to acquire everything in-game which is available - or at least everything of X or Y category. An obvious example of this in Elvenar would be those players who 'collect' all of the Unicorn-themed buildings and/or, less often, other 'sets' of buildings such as the various coloured Frozen Flames or Codexes - and/or those who construct their City/ies in order to be aesthetically pleasing rather than mathematically efficient.
These motivations are so commonly reliable that there are almost no F2P games which do not employ them, albeit to varying degrees depending upon the type of game - and whether or not the game concerned also relies upon other revenue drivers - since this list is not exhaustive, of course.
... not only this, but also: I have seen many people become very surprised when they discover how much money a 'Free' to Play game can make, because, as you say, they meet a majority of players who insist that they do not contribute any money to the game, when in fact the opposite is true - often to quite a large extent. But in this, there is little, if any, more dishonesty than is seen in much of Humanity's everyday interaction with itself.