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Traveling Merchant and its Benefits

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SoggyShorts, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Sir Derf

    Sir Derf Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2018
    Just discovered, on Elven Calculator, if you hover over the "spaces used" number, it documents how it arrived at that number. I compute in a slightly different order, but it looks like I'm trying to do all the same things.

    My newest numbers don't match Elven Calculator. Typing as I try to analyze why...


    Hmmm, it appears that it thinks it requires 2.64 W-17 to support an Elixir 9-3-3-3-3-3, where I think it takes 3.97 W-17.

    I compute 9-3-3-3-3-3 W-17 produces 15,080 Supplies/d (3,880 + 5*2,240), it shows 15,086, which while different, isn't big enough.

    Ah, this must be my error. I computed using 17,200 Supplies/9 hour EM-15 production instead of 10,700 Supplies/9 hour. Looks like my eyes drifted and plucked a value from EM-14 24 hour. this is why you show your work...

    Reworking real-world numbers...

    Chapter VI (Dwarves)
    1,243 Elixir/day (9-3-3-3-3-3 EM and W) using 1 EM-15 = 159.57 effective squares (ElvenEfficiency says 160, we match)
    1,243 Elixir/day (9-3-3-3-3-3) using 2.46 TM3-6s at 17.22 effective squares (and 120.54 excess Culture)
    TM3 927% effective

    Computed at End stage Chapter VI (Dwarves)

    An unboosted Level 15 Elixir Manufactory takes up 4x5 (20) squares, requires 2,087 Population, 417 Culture and ½ of 4 Road squares, and can produce 182 Elixir/3 hours at a cost of 58,200 Gold/3 hour and 5,820 Supplies/3 hour and 333 Elixir/9 hours at a cost of 107,000 Gold/9 hours and 10,700 Supplies/9 hours. Collecting 1 9 and 5 3 hour productions, it can produce 1,243 Elixir/day at a cost of 398,000 Gold/day and 39,800 Supplies/day.

    A Level 17 Workshop produces 2,240 Supplies/3 hours and 3,880 Supplies/9 hours, taking up 5x3 (15) squares, requires 660 Population, 325 Culture and ½ of 3 Road squares. Collecting 1 9 and 5 3 hour productions, it can produce 15,080 Supplies/day. To produce 39,800 Supplies/day requires 2.64 Level 17 Workshops, taking up 39.6 squares and requiring 1742.4 Population, 858 Culture and 3.96 Road squares.

    A Level 17 Residence provides 470 Population taking up 2x4 (8) squares and requires 172 Culture and ½ of 2 Road squares. 3,829.4 (2,087+1,742.4) Population requires 8.14 Level 17 Residences, taking up 65.12 squares and requires 1,400.08 Culture and 8.14 Road squares.

    Dwarven Street squares provide 49 Culture. 14.1 (2+3.96+8.14) Road squares provide 690.9 Culture.

    A Temple of the Holy Fire provides 2400 Culture taking up 5x5 (25) squares and requires no Road squares. 1,984.18 (417+858+1,400.08-690.9) Culture requires 0.83 Temples of the Holy Fire, taking up 20.75 squares.


    In total, a Level 15 Elixir Manufactory can produce 1,243 Elixir/day (collecting 1 9 and 5 3 hour productions) using a total of 159.57 squares (20 Manufactory + 39.6 Workshop + 65.12 Residence + 14.1 Road + 20.75 Culture).

    In contrast, a Chapter 6 Traveling Merchant III can produce 69 Elixir/3 hours and 161 Elixir/9 hour using a total of 2x3 (6) squares, requiring 0 Population, 0 Culture, 1/2 of 2 Road squares and 0 Supplies. Collecting 1 9 and 5 3 hour productions, it can produce 506 Elixir/day. To produce 1,243 Elixir/day would require 2.46 Chapter 6 Traveling Merchant IIIs, taking up 17.22 (14.76+2.46) squares of Chapter 6 Traveling Merchant IIIs and Road, and produces 120.54 excess Culture.
     
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  2. FieryArien

    FieryArien Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    There you’ve done it. Once I get rid of the enchantements already waiting in my Magic Academy for the event (I need to pass through many quests to be able to seriously try for the set building on the second day), I’ll start looking for few TM3s to craft! ;-)

    PS: I’d like to point out, that manufactories don’t necessary go always up in efficiency as you upgrade them. Especially past superior level. The link to the comparison page provided earlier by SoggyShorts will show you more info.
     
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  3. Sir Derf

    Sir Derf Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2018
    Typing while I think...

    I think you're reading a single table, looking at updating an EM while holding the Specific Parameters constant (not updating Residences, Workshops, Roads or Culture.)

    9-3-3-3-3-3 Collection

    Chapter 5 - W-15, R-15, Ornate Street and Garden of Harmony

    Reading from the same table

    EM-15 (Chapter 5) produces 2,487 Elixir in 193 effective squares, 12.89 E/sq.
    EM-23 (Chapter 11) produces 5,497 Elixir in 492 effective spaces, 11.17 E/sq.

    Efficiency drops slightly.

    Chapter 11 - W-27, R-27, Country Lane and Pole of Donations

    EM-23 (Chapter 11) produces 5,497 Elixir in 200 effective squares, 27.49 E/sq.

    Efficiency more than doubles.
     
  4. FieryArien

    FieryArien Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    The list in your post shows only 3 out of 4 options for comparison. It’s missing EM-15 efficiency in chapter 11. (Also, having EM-23 in a city with pop&cult buildings from chapter 5 is obvious nonsense, while having EM-15 in a city with pop&cult buildings from chapter 11 might make some sense.)

    EDIT: I’m not sure we understand each other in this derived topic. Just take the Elvenar Calculator, select Chapter 5 and Elixir manufactory (that’s where the superior upgrade is available) and look at the efficiency of the available Elixir manufactory upgrades. Not upgrades from the future chapters! Then choose Chapter 6 and again look at the efficiency of the available Elixir manufactory upgrades. And so on. You’ll see that surprisingly often the immediate upgrades to max manufactory level is simply not the most efficient approach.

    ONE MORE EDIT: If I’m doing something wrong and my mistake is shown to me, I’ll be very glad. It would simplify my city development strategy. ;-)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  5. Sir Derf

    Sir Derf Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2018
    My example was based on, I think now, misunderstanding, why you think "manufactories don’t necessary go always up in efficiency as you upgrade them".

    Let's see if I understand your expanded explanation...

    Elven Calculator - Check
    Chapter 5 - Check
    Elixir Manufactory - Check
    (Accept default C-60, R-15, W-15, Ornate St., set to 100% for unboosted T3)
    EM-1 through EM-15 efficiency humps from 8.39 to 13.1 peaking 13.5 at EM-9 through EM-11

    Chapter 6 - Check
    Elixir Manufactory - Check
    (Accept default C-85, R-17, W-17, Dwarven St., set to 100% for unboosted T3)
    EM-1 through EM-15 efficiency humps from 9.33 to 15.3 peaking at 15.9 at EM-11.

    So, are you pointing out the parabolic nature of the above two trends, that in both Chapter 5 and 6 they both have declining efficiency in EM-12 and higher?
     
  6. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    @Sir Derf
    Just using the calculator
    A level 18 planker is 63 per square and a level 19 is 61.
    I think that is what @FieryArien is saying.
     
  7. FieryArien

    FieryArien Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    Yes, now we understand each other. That PS I wrote was too condensed and left too much unsaid. Sorry about that. :-( My motivation to say it in relation to Traveling Merchant was that the compared effectiveness (within chapter) can be lower depending on the level of manufactury one chooses (unintuitive: by choosing lower than maximum level).

    It doesn’t in any way make TM not worth it. It’s great building. It’s just very complicated to truly compare best-for-best options and I’m not really suggesting to include this viewpoint into the counting. But it is interesting. :)
     
  8. Sir Derf

    Sir Derf Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2018
    Response to your PS point...

    As an Elvish Doc Brown might say, "Marty, you're not thinking three-dimensionally."

    Efficiency in (2-D) space isn't everything. Don't forget that improving your Manufactories increases your efficiency in time (the Elvenar third dimension) as well.

    From my earlier example, while a Chapter 6 EM-11 is 15.9 and an EM-15 is 15.3, increasing space by 44 squares and decreasing efficiency in Space by 4%, they respectively produce 1,873 and 2,487 Elixir in 24 hours, increasing efficiency in Time by 33%.
     
    m4rt1n likes this.
  9. FieryArien

    FieryArien Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    Space and time are the joined vessels in Elvenar. What is better (simplified example)?
    A) manufactory producing X amount of goods in Y time while taking Z space? Or
    B) two manufactories each producing X/2 amount of goods in Y time taking Z/2 space?

    We would probably say that A) is better, because it requires less clicks per day and can be enchanted by one spell (if you use spells). ;-) However, in terms of production it’s just the same. And if the smaller manufactory is actually more per square effective than the bigger one, player just needs to build more of the small ones to reach the same output as with less of the big ones. Player saves a bit of space and the goods output is similar.
     
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  10. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Where reality and theory split is when you want to increase production by less than a full factory.
    Sure, a level 18 planker is 1% more efficient than a level 19, but if you want more planks, adding a portion of another level 18 isn't possible.

    That's part of what makes the TM useful- it's a portion of a factory and (as demonstrated) a very efficient one too.

    My problem with the tm in crafting is the pricing of tm123. Based on feedback they did tweak it a little, but not enough to make the tm1 or tm2 a logical choice.
    If T2 is really worth 4x T1 then the TM1 should be 1/4 the price, no?
    Even at more "fair" cross tier exchange rates, the tm1 should be no more than half the price of a tm2.
     
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  11. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Necromancer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Guy's you really take these calculations seriously, and I have been following.
    I have decided that if a T3 Merchant comes into my crafting choices, I'll build it but the T1 and T2 versions are not worth it.

    I do admire your Math skills, it takes me back 30 years to my A level Pure and Applied days. :p
     

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