Spire Specialist City

[BlueBlou]

No, there are no Main Hall upgrades and that will also play a role if you ever place the Golden Abyss for the coins it generates. The only thing that changes is that your scouting costs comes down if you do an Advanced Scout research and that will enable you to do more scouting rings until you hit the orc wall.

 

[gathsdell]

the thing is -that as I was rudely LOL awakened to is that the only way to have a spire city is to have a spire FS.There is no point to a spire city if one does not have a spire FS,as the cost FAR,FAR exceeds the rewards.

 

[Pauly7]

the thing is -that as I was rudely LOL awakened to is that the only way to have a spire city is to have a spire FS.There is no point to a spire city if one does not have a spire FS,as the cost FAR,FAR exceeds the rewards.

Oh yeah, you need to be in a team that's getting you those spire golds or there isn't much point.

With the impending spire change now I'm starting to wonder where it's worth building an Aureate Phoenix in my little city. I suspect it probably is.

 

[Gargon667]

So I've been thinking about this again.

Without breaking the "Orc Wall" we can clear 220 provinces, which says to me that it should be possible to get 6,500 tournament scores without having to go that far.

So now I'm mulling over the idea of stopping the storyline progress earlier again - which most of you were advising anyway. What I would be interested to work out now, though, is how much goods you would need to produce in order to cater a 24 province tournament to six stars.

I know there isn't an easy answer to this as it depends on so many factors, but I am guessing that there is absolutely no way to do that with the small city footprint that I currently have (16 squares.) Right now I'm about to unlock Superior Residences in chapter 3. I'm thinking that I would be well served to at least open chapter 4, in order to get the vastly improved Magic Residences, but then would I go on and unlock "Superior Marble Manus" (they are the 4x3 size ones in a Human city).

Then there is the question of T3 in negotiations. Does that kick in from chapter 4? I'm still thinking of stopping in chapter 3, but laying down a bigger space to dramatically increase goods production.

As you said yourself that is impossible to say, but having 0 AWs, and no research past the T2 upgrades in chapter 4 is a good start to keep it down. Also it will take you a very long time to get all those provinces explored, so no need to increase your footprint now. Every expansion you add will make it more expensive as well, so I wouldn´t do that until I absolutely had to.

Another major factor is how you produce goods. All the event buildings that in later chapter make Orcs/Mana/Seeds/sentients make regular goods in lower chapters, not sure though if they make supplies in even earlier chapters? but if you can find a building that offers population and goods you may have a winner there Unfortunately for you the Spire set is being discontinued. So I hope you get lucky while it lasts After that I would guess evolving buildings are most likely good for you as well, since you can use all things they give which in sum tends to make them far better than standard buildings.

 

[Pauly7]

As you said yourself that is impossible to say, but having 0 AWs, and no research past the T2 upgrades in chapter 4 is a good start to keep it down

There aren't any T2 upgrades in chapter 4. At the moment my current thinking is to get into chapter 4 (for the better Magic Residences) and then move on as far as T1 upgrades, then stop.

It's going OK so far. I went straight to the top of the Spire today and it didn't really even dent my coins and supplies reserves. I did burn through the majority of my T2 stock though and, as I've calculated all the numbers now I can see that right now I'm not making quite enough T2 to get through that Spire run, plus the 2,100 point tournament I just had... So T2 production could be the next problem to address.

The new curveball now, though, is that I may be able to build an Aureate Phoenix. I wonder if this would be worth it and if this would mean that I shouldn't press on to the third stage of T1 factories.

 

[Pauly7]

The new curveball now, though, is that I may be able to build an Aureate Phoenix. I wonder if this would be worth it and if this would mean that I shouldn't press on to the third stage of T1 factories.

I've just looked at the stats. Yeah, of course it's worth it. A level 10 chapter 4 Aureate would add about 22k of T1 goods a week which is about two thirds as much as my existing T1 from manus. It would pay out coins - probably about half as much as my level 2 GA is doing right now, but I get the feeling coins are going to be no issue at all. I'm already very close to blowing up the GA.

On top of that I would have a reason to craft pet foods and 300% goods boosts will prove very handy.

 

[BlueBlou]

Yeah, of course it's worth it.

I like to look at multiple functions for cities. Yellow bird is very good for FAs too. Only challenge perhaps, it is fairly big to place in a micro city.

 

[Pauly7]

I like to look at multiple functions for cities. Yellow bird is very good for FAs too. Only challenge perhaps, it is fairly big to place in a micro city.

Quite big, but when you consider that it will give me 65% as many T1 goods as my marble manus, then it's actually pretty small, plus culture and population gain rather than deficit, plus a healthy supply of coins. No brainer.

 

[Gargon667]

There aren't any T2 upgrades in chapter 4. At the moment my current thinking is to get into chapter 4 (for the better Magic Residences) and then move on as far as T1 upgrades, then stop.

It's going OK so far. I went straight to the top of the Spire today and it didn't really even dent my coins and supplies reserves. I did burn through the majority of my T2 stock though and, as I've calculated all the numbers now I can see that right now I'm not making quite enough T2 to get through that Spire run, plus the 2,100 point tournament I just had... So T2 production could be the next problem to address.

The new curveball now, though, is that I may be able to build an Aureate Phoenix. I wonder if this would be worth it and if this would mean that I shouldn't press on to the third stage of T1 factories.

Ah right sorry they were in chapter 5, you only get T1 and T3 in chapter 4. I guess the T1 is worth it. Not much in chap 4 after that. A good question if going into chapter 4 is worth it at all. Since spire and tourney don´t go by chapter, but by tech I would say definitely get the advanced scout, since that is right after the MH anyway. Of course that is bad for FAs, but given all the other advantages, I would say yes. If you want to continue on to the T1 upgrades is more difficult. Possibly you can produce T2 only and then cross-tier trade? In case T2 production is more efficient than T1 production. I am honestly not sure what level factories are best early on, needs a whole bunch of calculating with Pop, space and production. Once you have all Magic pop you should certainly max them though, whatever max is of course.

The Aureate is defintitely great! Even the Storm might be. Not sure what and how much it would produce in chap 4. But with the pop and culture bonus it doesn´t need much to be better than factories. But I guess it would be a while before you get 18 artifacts Aureate first for sure.

 

[Pauly7]

Ah right sorry they were in chapter 5, you only get T1 and T3 in chapter 4. I guess the T1 is worth it. Not much in chap 4 after that. A good question if going into chapter 4 is worth it at all. Since spire and tourney don´t go by chapter, but by tech I would say definitely get the advanced scout, since that is right after the MH anyway. Of course that is bad for FAs, but given all the other advantages, I would say yes. If you want to continue on to the T1 upgrades is more difficult. Possibly you can produce T2 only and then cross-tier trade? In case T2 production is more efficient than T1 production. I am honestly not sure what level factories are best early on, needs a whole bunch of calculating with Pop, space and production. Once you have all Magic pop you should certainly max them though, whatever max is of course.

I am still hesitant, but one way or the other I don't intend on producing T3 to get me through those techs in chapter 4. I really want to be in chapter 4 because the Magic Residences get twice as good. I have 5 chapter 3 MRs, most of them bought with diamonds as the cost is so low in this chapter. As soon as I open chapter 4 I will slap blueprints on them all.

FA causes me an issue because I want to at least be able to do some to help the team. From chapter 3 to chapter 4 the cost of a bracelet goes up from about 1,250 to about 4,725. Should I be able to get a chapter 4 level 10 Aureate then I may only end up having 2 or 3 chapter level marble manus... and I question whether they will be worth it. The Aureate itself won't be used to its fullest in FA unless I have several manus to benefit from the feeding effect.

 

[BlueBlou]

Do not let the MR swing your decisions. A top level normal residence at chapter 3 level is potent enough and far better than a chapter 3 magic residence. Not that big an increase when you get a chapter 4 magic residence from a normal residence. Your t1 footprint and population needs changes significantly. You will have to check if the increased output is worth all that needs to go in it.

 

[CrazyWizard]

So I've been thinking about this again.

Without breaking the "Orc Wall" we can clear 220 provinces, which says to me that it should be possible to get 6,500 tournament scores without having to go that far.

So now I'm mulling over the idea of stopping the storyline progress earlier again - which most of you were advising anyway. What I would be interested to work out now, though, is how much goods you would need to produce in order to cater a 24 province tournament to six stars.

I know there isn't an easy answer to this as it depends on so many factors, but I am guessing that there is absolutely no way to do that with the small city footprint that I currently have (16 squares.) Right now I'm about to unlock Superior Residences in chapter 3. I'm thinking that I would be well served to at least open chapter 4, in order to get the vastly improved Magic Residences, but then would I go on and unlock "Superior Marble Manus" (they are the 4x3 size ones in a Human city).

Then there is the question of T3 in negotiations. Does that kick in from chapter 4? I'm still thinking of stopping in chapter 3, but laying down a bigger space to dramatically increase goods production.

7020 points in 7 of the 9 tournaments, 5400 points in theother 2.
Which 7 and which 2 depends on your bonus production.

 

[Pauly7]

Do not let the MR swing your decisions. A top level normal residence at chapter 3 level is potent enough and far better than a chapter 3 magic residence. Not that big an increase when you get a chapter 4 magic residence from a normal residence. Your t1 footprint and population needs changes significantly. You will have to check if the increased output is worth all that needs to go in it.

This isn't a straightforward equation. Manus at lower levels are more resource efficient. A level 8 marble manu costs 23 population per square and a level 15 marble manu costs 2 and a half times more than that. This isn't matched by the extra efficiency of a chapter 4 magic residence over a level 15 regular residence... but I also have to consider the goods production and whether I am satisfied with the amount of goods I am receiving from the level 8 marble manus. The answer is no, I'm not, therefore progressing to chapter 4 seems to be the only option. Then I will add more residences, manus and expansions until I have found that comfortable spot.

 

[Pauly7]

Of course the other option is to place more expansions, stay in chapter 3, and place more low level manus... it's all pretty advanced maths for me, because then I'm comparing extra marble production against the weighting of those extra expansions on the spire formula.

 

[Gargon667]

I guess one way to do it is to stay in chapter 3 and see how it all turns out. You can still move into chapter 4 later, but you can´t go the opposite way. As Blue said Main Hall Gold capacity may turn into a problem at some point. Then you may need to do another advanced scout to proceed exploring... I am not sure... there is a formula how to calculate exploration costs, but I don´t remember it.

 

[Pauly7]

I guess one way to do it is to stay in chapter 3 and see how it all turns out. You can still move into chapter 4 later, but you can´t go the opposite way. As Blue said Main Hall Gold capacity may turn into a problem at some point. Then you may need to do another advanced scout to proceed exploring... I am not sure... there is a formula how to calculate exploration costs, but I don´t remember it.

The problem is that the only way I can see of staying in chapter 3 would be to place more expansions - maybe 3 more - to provide enough extra T1 to be able to get my tournament scores higher. The expansions can't be undone any more than the researches.

Of course, a compromise could be to resign myself to placing the expansions without yet deciding if I want to be in chapter 3 or chapter 4. If I went to chapter 4 still I'd just have to utilise all that extra space.

 

[Pauly7]

Something else that's troubling me now is my impending gems production boost. I may be able to live with the T1 and T2 production boost increasing, because it allows me to produce more of the goods that I need to use, but... presumably the moment I unlock gems production boost towards the end of chapter 3 then I am immediately going to be whacked with an extra catering cost and if I am intending to never use T3, then that is going to be difficult to live with.

I have seen already that moving from one tournament week to the next, the only changes that have happened are a) I've completed 4 more researches and b) my marble production boost jumped quite significantly. My catering cost in round 1 of the tournament has gone up by over 30%. I already have 164 gems relics. There is no (that I know of) practical way to burn them without going all the way to the end of chapter 4 and producing a lot of T3.

Now I'm thinking of putting on the progress breaks right now... but, as I say, that means I am going to need to place quite a few expansions in order to allow me to produce enough T1 and T2 to progress in tournaments. Maybe that's the answer though. I will also have 5 chapter 3 magic residences to delete. That's my own fault, but I don't like the idea nonetheless.

What I am learning from this process is that to keep a small micro-city more tournament/spire efficient than one that grows as intended (within the correct parameters, of course) is no gimme. Having a chapter 3 city that can go to the top of the spire and score 1,600 tournament points, (with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back), is very easy. When trying to decide how to push for much more than that, it keeps on looking like it would be better to progress.

For each extra layer you add, then it seems there is also another extra layer that is needed.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Something else that's troubling me now is my impending gems production boost. I may be able to live with the T1 and T2 production boost increasing, because it allows me to produce more of the goods that I need to use, but... presumably the moment I unlock gems production boost towards the end of chapter 3 then I am immediately going to be whacked with an extra catering cost and if I am intending to never use T3, then that is going to be difficult to live with.

I have seen already that moving from one tournament week to the next, the only changes that have happened are a) I've completed 4 more researches and b) my marble production boost jumped quite significantly. My catering cost in round 1 of the tournament has gone up by over 30%. I already have 164 gems relics. There is no (that I know of) practical way to burn them without going all the way to the end of chapter 4 and producing a lot of T3.

Now I'm thinking of putting on the progress breaks right now... but, as I say, that means I am going to need to place quite a few expansions in order to allow me to produce enough T1 and T2 to progress in tournaments. Maybe that's the answer though. I will also have 5 chapter 3 magic residences to delete. That's my own fault, but I don't like the idea nonetheless.

What I am learning from this process is that to keep a small micro-city more tournament/spire efficient than one that grows as intended (within the correct parameters, of course) is no gimme. Having a chapter 3 city that can go to the top of the spire and score 1,600 tournament points, (with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back), is very easy. When trying to decide how to push for much more than that, it keeps on looking like it would be better to progress.

For each extra layer you add, then it seems there is also another extra layer that is needed.

gems is unlocked in the first chapter after the unlock (aka chapter 5)

 

[BlueBlou]

I am struggling a bit with why the t3 boost is going to matter. As I understand the formula, whichever of the three t’s are highest, or maxed, that is the number that will be used. If one does well in tourneys, or your fs does well, your relic count quickly increases. No way to get rid of boosted relics through producing enchantments in MA, so those will start adding up till you hit 700%. Building wonders and then delete them might lower some of your boosted relic numbers, but I do not think it is effective in the long run. I am not even sure when you get the first AW that needs t3 relics. So this makes me think that one will eventually end up in the situation where one of the t’s will be 700% and that it might just make life easier to accept this and plan whatever you need to do with your city around this.

 

[Heymrdiedier]

It's a challenge for a reason. You don't do the provinces or tournaments of your boosts, unless you have a direct way to get rid of those relics again.
first wonders that need T3 relics, are the human/elf wonders on the end of chapter 4. but T3 is the easiest to get down, since there are also pet food recipes that require those. So those can help you a little bit more then the other boosts.

Im making 2 of these citys, without overlapping boosts, just to be sure that if it works, I can swap 1 account for the other when the tournament of my boost is up.
In my head its very important to keep those relic boosts down, in order to compensate for having to go to orc chapter and do all that mandatory research. But who knows, maybe once I'm in that orc chapter, I might think i can ignore that relic boost anyway...

My main priority right now, is however, to try and get as many pieces of the spire set as i can before they are gone. They were supposed to be my main income of goods.... since manufactories are useless without the boosts.