Discussion Fellowship Adventures coming again - with changes!

[Gargon667]

Out of curiousity, Swags did extremely well last FA (scoring close to 120k I think). Do you have any stats on how many diamonds you spent and Workshops you built etc. ?

I can´t speak for the whole FS, we don´t keep track of that, but I personally used rougly 4k diamonds and 400 CC to make VV badges (say give or take 25%) also I think I must have gained about 2k diamonds from MOs in that time so add those as well. I am very wasteful with diamonds (as I said it is the CC that limit my VV badges not the diamonds), so I flip over the MA if there is nothing I like, even though they may make 9 VV. I only craft stuff that is useful in gameplay.
Space is something I did not predict would be trouble, so I made less than I could have, We´ll see how it goes if I actually try, I think this time I hade 15 max T1 and 200+ WS for space.

That is good for you of course, but I very much doubt that this is typical of the player-base as a whole. Most Fellowships aren't getting Gold in the Spire every week, and even in the few that are, I strongly suspect that the large majority of players have other priorities for their diamonds (particularly expansions which are important for City Progression generally).

I would say gold medals are typical for any FS that is anywhere close to winning an FA. The spire is just as important for the FA as it is for the tourneys. If they typically spend diamonds on flipping MAs or not is hardly important though. They can do it and be happy about the rewards or do it while complaining about it lol, the result is the same.
It of course is a different story for FS that only want to finish the maps. Completely different game that I don´t know much about. The limiting factor in all cases is effort put into the game I would argue, no matter at what level . But where the effort has to be directed may differ.
As it is right now, premium expansions are the split between ranking towns and towns interested in team events. They have benefit only for towns primarily focused on rankings. For team events they are detrimental in most cases. The only exception might be breaking the bank in FAs, but not even that I am sure will be the case... In 1 tourney FAs I doubt space will be an issue at all, and I am guessing it was an accident with the 2 tourney FA this time (the delay due to the beta bug pushed a different start day). Inno may be planning 1 tourney FAs as the standard... So i don´t see myself purchasing any premium expansion any time soon.

 

[Far Reach]

I can´t speak for the whole FS, we don´t keep track of that, but I personally used rougly 4k diamonds and 400 CC to make VV badges (say give or take 25%) also I think I must have gained about 2k diamonds from MOs in that time so add those as well.

Thank you for the detailed and interesting numbers. Since 1 CC roughly corresponds to 3 VV I guessing that you made about 12 mystic objects and a little over 100 badges. A FW would need a small bunch of players doing that to score highly, but I'm sure that Swags have them. (You were pretty lucky to get 2k diamonds back from MOs though - the expected number is around 500).

I would say gold medals are typical for any FS that is anywhere close to winning an FA.

The Arendyll winners (MAYHEM) with a very respectable 88k have (according to their FW page) only ever once got Spire gold. Their best ever Tournament was 73k. Swags are strong in all the team events, but it doesn't necessarily follow that your FA performance follows from this. Perhaps this just bears out @Paulys point about the top FWs being the ones prepared to spend the most resources (alongside their ShantyTowns).

As it is right now, premium expansions are the split between ranking towns and towns interested in team events. They have benefit only for towns primarily focused on rankings. For team events they are detrimental in most cases. The only exception might be breaking the bank in FAs, but not even that I am sure will be the case...

I'm sure that we'll continue to disagree on this, but I do think that you are grossly under-estimating the benefits and over-estimating the penalties which premium expansions provide. Expansions help hugely with Settlements when progressing a city and also provide lots of extra flexibility. For an endgame player adding 10 expansions will increase tournament and spire costs by about 5%. That is tiny when compared to some other effects (e.g. having many Wonders levels). Also even players with very large tournament cost penalties (such as myself) are capable of consistently producing scores worthy of a place in any tourney orientated FW.

 

[Gargon667]

Thank you for the detailed and interesting numbers. Since 1 CC roughly corresponds to 3 VV I guessing that you made about 12 mystic objects and a little over 100 badges. A FW would need a small bunch of players doing that to score highly, but I'm sure that Swags have them. (You were pretty lucky to get 2k diamonds back from MOs though - the expected number is around 500).

Sounds reasonable. Unfortunately i didn´t pay enough attention.

The Arendyll winners (MAYHEM) with a very respectable 88k have (according to their FW page) only ever once got Spire gold. Their best ever Tournament was 73k. Swags are strong in all the team events, but it doesn't necessarily follow that your FA performance follows from this. Perhaps this just bears out @Paulys point about the top FWs being the ones prepared to spend the most resources (alongside their ShantyTowns).

That is quite impressive, but I suppose it is correct, you don´t really need time boosts in huge quantities for 90k points, the only thing that needs them is the VV badge and it is rather benign on time boosts. But playing only 2 small tourneys would mean that hats would need boosting, as well, if there are no Spire libraries, then CC will need time boosting, so depending on circumstances it varies...
I would suppose though that it cost them a rather larger percentage of their timeboost resources to score 90 k than it cost us to score 120k.

As always if the will to put in an effort is big, there will be a way to do a big score.

I'm sure that we'll continue to disagree on this, but I do think that you are grossly under-estimating the benefits and over-estimating the penalties which premium expansions provide. Expansions help hugely with Settlements when progressing a city and also provide lots of extra flexibility. For an endgame player adding 10 expansions will increase tournament and spire costs by about 5%. That is tiny when compared to some other effects (e.g. having many Wonders levels). Also even players with very large tournament cost penalties (such as myself) are capable of consistently producing scores worthy of a place in any tourney orientated FW.

I can only speak for myself, but in my city there is 0 benefit for premium expansions, i am not even using the space I already have (what´s the use of buying another expansion if I put nothing on it?), I don´t know how many expansions in my town have nothing on it, I am just too lazy to put stuff on that has such marginally small advantage. Not worth the effort, until I get bored seeing empty space then I´ll fill it with something until next FA lol. I agree 5% is nobig deal compared to the others, but it is still 5% more than 0. And as you know I also don´t do any more research and I limit my AW progression to a net 0 (or close to it) as well.

 

[Pauly7]

That is quite impressive, but I suppose it is correct, you don´t really need time boosts in huge quantities for 90k points, the only thing that needs them is the VV badge and it is rather benign on time boosts. But playing only 2 small tourneys would mean that hats would need boosting, as well, if there are no Spire libraries, then CC will need time boosting, so depending on circumstances it varies...

I think if a FS has 25 committed FA players who are all doing exactly the right thing for max points... and so long as plenty of the cities are large enough to make shanty town room... Then I don't think 90k should be too out of reach for a team to get without spending many diamonds. They will probably need time boosters, but so long as you are getting one or two crystals from the top of the spire then you are getting most, or all, of the instants.

 

[Pauly7]

Just today's musing...

It occurs to me, by my calculations, that when planning Fellowship Adventure shanty towns, over 75% of a team's space and time needs to be devoted to workshops over manufactories. It always was workshop heavy, but since the latest iteration of FA came out it's doubly so. This is probably partly because they doubled the requirement for a Farmers badge, even though they removed the bakers and treants. As I see it, though, the biggest reason is the new bracelet badge, which is made by producing T1 in big manus, rather than being dependent on the shanty town.

So the thing I was musing is: I wonder why they did this, but didn't bring out an equivalent badge that asks people to gather large amounts of supplies. They could have followed the same pattern and called it a Bakers or a Treant badge, but it would seem logical that they would have done this and then reduced the need for so many Blacksmiths or Farmers.

 

[Far Reach]

So the thing I was musing is: I wonder why they did this, but didn't bring out an equivalent badge that asks people to gather large amounts of supplies. They could have followed the same pattern and called it a Bakers or a Treant badge, but it would seem logical that they would have done this and then reduced the need for so many Blacksmiths or Farmers.

Personally I wouldn't mind such a badge, but it would favour advanced cities a lot (especially tournament players). They are likely to have already committed to maximising supply production, and the combination of Magic Workshops, PoP spells from tournaments and the Prosperity AW make a huge difference.

 

[Pauly7]

but it would favour advanced cities a lot (especially tournament players).

Would it though? Currently it's the smaller cities that are much more powerful at making bracelets and sacks of coins. I would go so far as to say that you're at a disadvantage in FAs if your team is made up of later chapter players. In my chapter 4 city I've made nearly 200 bracelets this week so far. There is no chance I would have got a quarter of that in my main city in three days. Of course it all depends how they set the collection amounts for each chapter.

 

[Far Reach]

Would it though? Currently it's the smaller cities that are much more powerful at making bracelets and sacks of coins. I would go so far as to say that you're at a disadvantage in FAs if your team is made up of later chapter players. In my chapter 4 city I've made nearly 200 bracelets this week so far. There is no chance I would have got a quarter of that in my main city in three days. Of course it all depends how they set the collection amounts for each chapter.

I was thinking in part about differences even between cities in the same chapter though. As an example, my main city (C17) has 6 Magic Workshops, constant PoP spells on all of them from the tournament, and a Level 31 Prosperity Towers. That gives me 5 to 6 times the supply production of an end game player with the same number of regular (fully levelled) workshops without spells.

You make a strong point about the some of the current imbalances though (200 is a lot of bracelets !).

 

[Pauly7]

I was thinking in part about differences even between cities in the same chapter though. As an example, my main city (C17) has 6 Magic Workshops, constant PoP spells on all of them from the tournament, and a Level 31 Prosperity Towers. That gives me 5 to 6 times the supply production of an end game player with the same number of regular (fully levelled) workshops without spells.

You make a strong point about the some of the current imbalances though (200 is a lot of bracelets !).

However it worked out some people would be stronger than others, so you then get to decide who concentrates on keeping their big workshops out, who does the big manus and who sticks to shanty towns.

In the spirit of reducing the dependency on the shanty town, as I thought they were trying to do, you would just think this would have been a logical move. As they already had the one idea I'm surprised they didn't do that too.

 

[Sir Derf]

I made a similar musing back when the first introduced the new style FA.

 

[Silvermaiden]

If Inno would carry over excess VV to the next Residue badge that would make it easier - but I suppose less profitable. Some compromise is needed though - diamond bottlenecks are a bit tough. Winning then depends less on team effort and strategy.

 

[Pauly7]

If Inno would carry over excess VV to the next Residue badge that would make it easier - but I suppose less profitable. Some compromise is needed though - diamond bottlenecks are a bit tough. Winning then depends less on team effort and strategy.

Yeah definitely. The Arcane Residue badge is still practically game-breaking for the FA. If you have a team of 25 people all picking up all available crafting rotations without missing any for 6 days and 8 hours. Then, if those people all craft every single recipe (obviously time boosted and half of the items being useless to them), then you still might not be able to get enough points by the end to come first, depending on the server. This is also bearing in mind that you would need 25 players all 100% committed to it, which 99.9% of teams don't have.

So success at the very top end will usually come down to which team is willing or able to spend the most diamonds. It's probably what they want and it is, of course, only driven by competition as no one needs to do it. It's a pity though.

 

[Pauly7]

It's occurred to me that I haven't seen a single recipe appear, for the duration of this FA, for either 10KP or 15KP that doesn't require CCs. This is on either of the worlds that I play on. Have I been having bad luck, or have these been quietly removed from the crafting rotation?

 

[DeletedUser]

It's occurred to me that I haven't seen a single recipe appear, for the duration of this FA, for either 10KP or 15KP that doesn't require CCs. This is on either of the worlds that I play on. Have I been having bad luck, or have these been quietly removed from the crafting rotation?

Well, i have 1 right now for 6 shards and 300 fragments. So they are around ;-)

EDIT: 10 KP that is.

 

[Gargon667]

However it worked out some people would be stronger than others, so you then get to decide who concentrates on keeping their big workshops out, who does the big manus and who sticks to shanty towns.

In the spirit of reducing the dependency on the shanty town, as I thought they were trying to do, you would just think this would have been a logical move. As they already had the one idea I'm surprised they didn't do that too.

From a logical point of view i agree, or for completeness sake.
Sure they could do such a badge, but it would be entirely pointless for any town below chapter 15 to make these badges. Of course they could work around that by tripling the requirements for the badge in chapter 15 compared to 14 (just like the WS efficiency triples then), but then they´d have all the folks complaining about it instantly, because they don´t understand how WS work. In the end it would lead to having zillions of useless upgraded WS (instead of lvl 1 WS) until you reach chapter 15. From that point onward it would be a viable badge option, but before that I see more trouble than use.
So I personally would understand it if that´s how they think. Not sure though.

It would be a case far more extreme than the bracelets. Yes better to do bracelets in a low chapter, but not impossible later on. Also being in a low chapter has other drawback in badge making. So I see the bracelets (and money bags) as a way of making small towns a bit more valuable and that´s a good thing. The supply badge would counteract that as well.

 

[Pauly7]

Of course they could work around that by tripling the requirements for the badge in chapter 15 compared to 14 (just like the WS efficiency triples then), but then they´d have all the folks complaining about it instantly, because they don´t understand how WS work.

That's what they'd have to do. It would have to be some way dependent on what the max workshop production is in a given chapter. I am presuming that's what they did for bracelet calculations, though maybe not because it gets much tougher in later chapters, which doesn't make sense.

It would be a case far more extreme than the bracelets. Yes better to do bracelets in a low chapter, but not impossible later on.

The supplies badge could be worse, but not necessarily, depending on how the requirements are set. Also I'm not sure if you appreciate how much of a gulf there is in bracelet production between higher and lower chapters. In this FA just gone I made the better part of 400 bracelets in my chapter 4 city without breaking a sweat. That wasn't done by dumping thousands of hours of instants on it. It is considerably more effort for me to make 40 bracelets in my chapter 15 city. That difference is huge.

Anyway, I should point out that I'm not fussed about this either way. I'm not saying I think their should be an extra workshop badge. Just that I am surprised there isn't, especially as the FA has a necessity to use about 5 times the space and time with L1 workshops compared to L1 manus.

 

[Laurelin]

In the spirit of reducing the dependency on the shanty town, as I thought they were trying to do [...]

Just out of interest, and because my memory frequently fails me - did InnoGames themselves actually say that reducing the FA's dependence upon shanty towns was one of their objectives in altering the FA structure? Or was it more a case that we players, while wondering why the FA had been changed, came to that conclusion by ourselves - not least because, again as far as I recall (which isn't saying much!), there was no particular reason given by Inno as to why [it seems, so far] all of the 'old-style' FAs appear now to have been replaced by only one 'new-style' version?

And if I am indeed just suffering from yet another 'senior moment', and have either forgotten or failed to notice that Inno have officially stated that the new-style FA is (at least partially) designed to reduce the need for shanty towns, was this announcement made in a Forum post at some point, or perhaps somewhere else where I'm unlikely to have seen it - such as on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube...?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can advise!

 

[Pauly7]

did InnoGames themselves actually say that reducing the FA's dependence upon shanty towns was one of their objectives in altering the FA structure? Or was it more a case that we players, while wondering why the FA had been changed, came to that conclusion by ourselves

No I don't think they did actually say that. Well... they perhaps hinted at it previously, but when the new style was implemented I think they just did it without explanation. That's much like a lot of stuff though. They don't often say "We're doing this because of X".

 

[Gargon667]

Just out of interest, and because my memory frequently fails me - did InnoGames themselves actually say that reducing the FA's dependence upon shanty towns was one of their objectives in altering the FA structure? Or was it more a case that we players, while wondering why the FA had been changed, came to that conclusion by ourselves - not least because, again as far as I recall (which isn't saying much!), there was no particular reason given by Inno as to why [it seems, so far] all of the 'old-style' FAs appear now to have been replaced by only one 'new-style' version?

And if I am indeed just suffering from yet another 'senior moment', and have either forgotten or failed to notice that Inno have officially stated that the new-style FA is (at least partially) designed to reduce the need for shanty towns, was this announcement made in a Forum post at some point, or perhaps somewhere else where I'm unlikely to have seen it - such as on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube...?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can advise!

If I remember correctly the official reason was something along the lines of "to make the FA less intrusive and more in line with general gameplay" not explicitly less shanty towns, but that would of course be implied...but I may be wrong. Should be in the announcement from back then? Not that I remember when that was exactly...

 

[Gargon667]

Anyway, I should point out that I'm not fussed about this either way. I'm not saying I think their should be an extra workshop badge. Just that I am surprised there isn't, especially as the FA has a necessity to use about 5 times the space and time with L1 workshops compared to L1 manus.

Adding a supply badge would only change that ratio if they took away one of the long WS production badge instead. Anyway i am happy the ratio is skewed towards WS, It is a real pain to build the factories, while WS are quickly built and also the factories are even small, making collections more tricky as well as slowing the game down even more, because of double the animated buildings... Not that I am running graphics details as it is...