Discussion Fellowship Adventures coming again - with changes!

[DeletedUser]

If InnoGames seriously wishes the FA to become a 'team-building' exercise, as it is promoted to be, then the game should incorporate the necessary tools and player management structure required, since very few players of online games are willing to commit themselves to using outside tools, such as spreadsheets (or anything else), in order merely to participate in a game - which should be, after all, a relaxing amusement, not a job of work.

Speaking from my own quite considerable experience as a member of several Fellowships (which have done everything from single-path completions [and failed attempts at same] to highly competitive Top 20 finishes including many Pit Rounds), the best that can be said of the 'team-building' nature of the FA, as it stands, is that for every FS which finds the exercise rewarding and inter-personally 'bonding', there are many more which have trouble avoiding outright arguments breaking out between players and/or some FS members even leaving as a result. As for the placement of Badges on the Maps, this has been at best somewhat chaotic and wasteful, and at worst pretty much disastrous (and sometimes infuriating, to be honest), due to the complete absence of any in-game method [beyond the poor Inbox message system] of controlling - or even knowing! - which and how many Badges each FS member is making and/or placing - and that's been true of every FA I have ever completed, which is all of them over the past 2½ years.

It is, of course, evident from reading these Forums (bearing in mind that the enormous majority of players never even visit, let alone post, here) that there are, as there will be in any online game, a few Fellowships which have the shared determination, patience, and extremely competitive spirit required in order to enjoy, and thrive upon, inter-player competition in any form, even in the form of the FA as it stands - with all of its lack of in-game tools and, as a result, high potential for various errors of communication, including accidental Badge mis-placement (and thus wastage), over-production of X Badge vs under-production of Y Badge, confusion as to which Path the Fellowship is taking, and so forth. However, it is also true of any online game that trying to get the entire group to follow the same plans and/or choices, in no matter which regard but especially when it comes to finite competitive events, can best be likened to herding cats - and this is not an activity which is well-known to create anything but much frustration.

The 'new-style' FA is more Resource-draining and more difficult to complete, in group terms, than its predecessor, since more co-operation and contribution is required due to the nature of several of the new Badges; it is now far less realistic for only the 'FA-keen' members of any given Fellowship to 'carry' the other members by producing more than their share of Badges, as would often happen in the past. However, simply making the FA more difficult to achieve, by requiring more in the way of commitment and contribution from each member, without also providing the very necessary in-game tools with which to perform the feat of co-ordination required, leads not to more camaraderie and 'team spirit', but to more chaos.

This is EXACTLY what it is announced to be; 'team-building' is not - Here's all you need: Go play.

No, it's exactly how this is setup. 'team-building' is learning to communicate with each other. Reading what the coordinator is writing AND do it. The problem is NOT how this is - it's how the players are. Many don't give a hat about others and just wants theirs. I have done my deal of FA's and dealt with all kinds of players, and yes, it's at times frustrating; But hay - again: It's not the game - it's the players.

It's like kicking the mail man because he's the one who brings you the bills ;-)

If you wanna make this work, you need to find the right FS or the right players for your own FS. And then yes, you yourself make that sheet. No, it should not be an in-game-all-automated. Then there's suddenly no game because you don't need to do anything anymore.

A question; Why is it that a game should just be easy, why can't it actually demand some skills ?

For the players who add the most badges, there should be extra rewards. Those who do more, get more. If some players do 30% more than the average, based upon total players, chosen paths and how many pits, then they get a good extra prize which matched what they have added to the completion of the FA = their 30%, in this example.

 

[Laurelin]

It's not the game - it's the players.

Well... yes, and no. I've been playing online games since they were invented (yes, I am very old), and there are very few indeed which feature such a complex, Resource-demanding, and yet also poorly implemented multi-player element as Elvenar's FAs - well, outside of the growing number of mobile-only cash grabs/advertisement platforms which don't deserve even to be called 'games', although they too, of course, require (read: exploit) the concept of 'team play' in order to profit from natural human competitive spirit, peer pressure, and 'FOMO' (Fear Of Missing Out).

Any game I have ever played which offered such a complex and demanding multi-player event as the FA has also offered a player management UI to go with it - precisely because the players can be so unpredictable, meaning that the organisers need such a structure in order to cope. I rather thought that this point had come through in my first post, but in case not, I'll clarify: it's specifically the unpredictable behaviour of human beings - offline or online - which makes any kind of control structure necessary. If people were predictable and followed instructions reliably? - no problem!

It's like kicking the mail man because he's the one who brings you the bills

This isn't really an analogy which illustrates my point, although the 'content/delivery' comparison is useful. I'm talking about the method of delivery, not the content, of the FAs (although on that note, I strongly dislike the Arcane Residue Badges, and I'm none too keen on Bracelets, either). My original point would be better compared to criticising the postman because he chooses to deliver the bills (and, of course, the more welcome letters as well) by stuffing them down the chimney... after ripping them into pieces. Again: it's not [most of] the FA content which is at fault, but the method of delivery.

If you wanna make this work, you need to find the right FS or the right players for your own FS. And then yes, you yourself make that sheet.

Been there, done that. Have organised FAs myself. Spreadsheets are a great love of mine for many purposes (not sarcasm). But hopping in and out of the game to edit them, while dealing with a FS where half of the players reliably use the spreadsheet, a quarter avoid it completely, and a quarter use it randomly and unpredictably, is just a waste of time for everyone concerned. A far simpler method of Badge-tracking than a spreadsheet, plus a way to indicate - visibly, on the FA Map - which Path and Waypoints should be used for placing those Badges, both could and should be incorporated into the game. Nobody would be forced to use such a UI, of course, if their self-devised organisational methods are preferred. Choices are good.

NB: Yes, I could join a different Fellowship. But it's rare enough to find one in which most of the members agree on most topics (again, just basic human nature, which is no different online than anywhere else), without expecting them also to agree on something as controversial as the FAs. I could, in theory, join a FS on the sole basis that every member had a 100% identical view on FAs; but if there exists such a FS in the first place - and if they would also agree on all of the (to me, more important) other elements of the game, too, well; perhaps they all ride unicorns, as well...?!

No, it should not be an in-game-all-automated. Then there's suddenly no game because you don't need to do anything anymore.

Where did I even suggest 'all-automated'....?!

A question; Why is it that a game should just be easy, why can't it actually demand some skills ?

A counter-question : Where is the (game-related) skill in keeping two programs running simultaneously on a PC, such as a resource-intensive (and it is) browser game such as Elvenar, and a spreadsheet, or even a basic text editor? And HOW, even, does one accomplish this on a mobile phone?

Another counter-question : Why would a game which heavily promotes itself as a 'casual strategy' game provide no form of strategising tool for a team event which was always designed to be very complex, or demand intensive attention from players who expected a 'casual' game to be, well, casual...?

For the players who add the most badges, there should be extra rewards. Those who do more, get more. If some players do 30% more than the average, based upon total players, chosen paths and how many pits, then they get a good extra prize which matched what they have added to the completion of the FA = their 30%, in this example.

... Seriously? You must have been in some quite unusual Fellowships if there has been no irritation - or even outright conflict - as a result of FAs even as they stand, if only on the level of some players wishing only to complete while others wish to compete. Do you really think it would enhance the experience of the majority of the (largely casual and not hyper-competitive) playerbase of Elvenar if FAs were to encourage not only inter-Fellowship competition, as they now do, but also competition between individual Fellowship members? While this might result in great fun for a small minority of the playerbase - and may even result in some extra revenue for InnoGames (although I doubt they need my advice on that!), I doubt whether the majority would benefit from that kind of pressure in what is - again - meant to be a 'casual strategy' game, not some kind of eSports contest.

 

[Pauly7]

I always sit on the fence slightly when the debate of improvements to the FA arises. I think they definitely could make some improvements. Namely:

• Badge collection - Whilst it is a million times better than it used to be, it's still needlessly laborious and open to error. I don't think it would detract from the enjoyment or challenge if badges just auto-collected, much like the mechanics of the old crafting challenges. So, if I have 100 * 2 day marble collections to pick up, then I should just be able to swipe them all and 50 statue badges appear in my inventory.
• Rewards - FAs are not about the material rewards, as any FA die-hard will tell you, but I would still like there to be some recognition for more teams. In my fellowship we do really well, but it is really hard to break into the top 3 on Arendyll, with Mayhem, Fairies and Jewels currently all smashing it. So we've been 4th several times now. I don't need a material reward for the FA, but I would like to have something that recognises we achieved something. There's the Memorial of Heroes, which was fine the first time, but doesn't stand out as a status symbol. Worse still is for those teams that try really hard and feel so proud of themselves finishing in about 12th, but the only thing to look forward to is one of those lily pads, which doesn't say anything. People could have got them from anywhere. So there's a big chasm here between the top 3 on the server and anyone else, for whom it's really hard to see when they will make it into a position where there is something nice waiting for them at the end. I'll say again, it isn't about material reward in an FA. It would just be nice if more teams (all of the top 25 perhaps) were getting a little something which says "yes, we did that". It could even just be a badge on the FS summary page.
• Path indicators - With the problems that often exist, such as language barriers and different time zones, it would be nice if the AM/Mages were able to place a flag on the map to say "this is the path we are going on" or "don't open this waypoint".
• Some badges still need some work. Arcane Residues, as @Laurelin points out, are still all wrong. They seem unwilling to amend them further, which says to me (as I'd already suspected) that they designed these specifically to drain as much of people's resources as possible to encourage further diamond spending. Because that's what they do. People will seldom spend their diamonds trying to boost an extra blacksmith badge, as that would be so costly. However, how many of us have spent diamonds fliipping MA rotations? We can cope with the odd 50 diamonds here and there right? I can spend time boosters making more CCs, because each one costs 6 hours, but you're not going to spend 120 hours of boosters making the next blacksmith. If it was all done for the good of the competition, that was inclusive for everyone, then they would change the Arcane Residue so that each one costs 1 Vision Vapour... or otherwise take it out of the bottomless pit rotation. (I would choose the latter option).

That all being said, I wouldn't change too much about the mechanics of the challenge. Inno presents us with an FA and it's up to each team to decide how much they wish to get out of it and how much they're willing to collaborate to achieve their goals. I would never support waypoints or paths being "lockable" and I would never support everyone being given access, within the game, to each other's inventories, etc. The use of spreadsheets, external chat rooms, and anything else people can come up with, are the things teams try to construct to give themselves the edge over other teams. If all of that was provided within the game, then FAs would all be just about who has the most number of people logging in the most. Everyone would go through the motions and there wouldn't be enough to separate the teams who really put their all into a Fellowship Adventure.

 

[Pauly7]

Continuing on from a point I was making above, regarding FA rewards, I would be quite happy if they just added something to the FS summary page, much like they have done with spire medals. So I would have 6 possible FA medals, and have the summary keep a tally of the numbers of each one a team has won:

• Platinum medal - 1st Place
• Gold medal - 2nd place
• Silver medal - 3rd place
• Bronze medal - 4th to 10th place
• Steel medal - 11th to 20th place
• Wooden medal - 21st - 50th place

I'm kinda just winging it with the medal types there, but you get my drift.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well... yes, and no. I've been playing online games since they were invented (yes, I am very old), and there are very few indeed which feature such a complex, Resource-demanding, and yet also poorly implemented multi-player element as Elvenar's FAs - well, outside of the growing number of mobile-only cash grabs/advertisement platforms which don't deserve even to be called 'games', although they too, of course, require (read: exploit) the concept of 'team play' in order to profit from natural human competitive spirit, peer pressure, and 'FOMO' (Fear Of Missing Out).

Any game I have ever played which offered such a complex and demanding multi-player event as the FA has also offered a player management UI to go with it - precisely because the players can be so unpredictable, meaning that the organisers need such a structure in order to cope. I rather thought that this point had come through in my first post, but in case not, I'll clarify: it's specifically the unpredictable behaviour of human beings - offline or online - which makes any kind of control structure necessary. If people were predictable and followed instructions reliably? - no problem!

<snip>

Been there, done that. Have organised FAs myself. Spreadsheets are a great love of mine for many purposes (not sarcasm). But hopping in and out of the game to edit them, while dealing with a FS where half of the players reliably use the spreadsheet, a quarter avoid it completely, and a quarter use it randomly and unpredictably, is just a waste of time for everyone concerned. A far simpler method of Badge-tracking than a spreadsheet, plus a way to indicate - visibly, on the FA Map - which Path and Waypoints should be used for placing those Badges, both could and should be incorporated into the game. Nobody would be forced to use such a UI, of course, if their self-devised organisational methods are preferred. Choices are good.

<snip>

Where did I even suggest 'all-automated'....?!

... Seriously? You must have been in some quite unusual Fellowships if there has been no irritation - or even outright conflict - as a result of FAs...

Well, let's not compete; But when i got my first PC, the internet was not even "www" yet ;-)

To me, most of what you write falls back on player behaviour, and i can't see the problem in that. It's not INNO's fault that we're idiots and don't want to get along, play nice and cooperate ;-)

What INNO does with this FA and how much is "automated" is up to them. FA is about working together as players. Why is that a bad thing that it demands something of us; Like actually - working together. I really can't see the problem in it.

And yes, i used the term "all-automated", because what you suggest/want is much close to that, where you/we don't have to do anything and the game almost plays itself. From before we got this new panel where all the badges are in and get filled simultaneously, was a real needed upgrade from the old "Flip & Switch" to find the right badge to fill, as @Pauly7 mentioned.

I think it's good that we need to do something to get something, and if we do a better job, we get rewarded better, as @Pauly7 also mentioned, via having to make a sheet, coordinate with our fellows a.s.o.

Ohh, almost forgot; Well, better FS' probably, from what you write. But there was a point to me writing " all kinds of players ". I Don't remember if it was because of an FA a couple of players left, but could be.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

'team-building' is learning to communicate with each other.

Of course, but using a chat system worse than AIM in the late 1990's is pathetic.
How do we not have separate chat tabs for management, whispers, events, and trade?

you yourself make that sheet. No, it should not be an in-game-all-automated.

There's a HUGE gap between the current clunky and boring interface and full automation.

A question; Why is it that a game should just be easy, why can't it actually demand some skills ?

The "skill" is in the planning of cities and the production of badges. The lack of communication tools (1 chat tab for everything, no ability to make an in-game email "sticky" etc) does not effect skill, just annoyance.
Speaking of annoyance @sprite1313 came up with a pretty comprehensive list of each badge and why collecting it should be different:

Spoiler: How to collect each badge, and why

Prodution Set badges (Brews, Carps, Farmers, Blacksmiths, Necklaces and Statues) - these would "roll over" completely. So you could, in theory, collect 50 toolboxes in a swipe and collect 10 badges. You have still done the work of putting together the city to enable that, and planned which badges are needed, it just eliminates the tedium of collect five, open the badge window, collect the badge, close the badge window, collect five, repeat.

Production Amount Badges (Bracelet, Guards, Coins and Residue) - these also roll over, just like the arcane residue rolls over for collecting mystical objects in the MA. I don't know about everyone else, but I find the bracelets to be a bottleneck. It would still be bad with this, but at least those extra T1 goods would roll to the next badge; (I always seem to end up only needing about 500 of my last manu's production to finish out a badge, so I waste 3000 that could be used towards another badge). Again, you are still doing the work, consuming the CCs and training the troops, this just gives you full credit for everything you do.

MA Production Sets (Witch Hats and Druid Staffs) - these would roll over no more than five. As @samidodamage pointed out, she has lots of spells already produced that she could collect at her leisure. But if you are crafting spells overnight (or, more likely, catalysts) you can't choose to collect only one. If three of them finish cooking overnight, then you get one badge for three ccs you collect.

Fighting Rewards Badges (Ghosts and Marbles) - these would roll over. You can fight the whole spire or all of your tourney provinces and then collect your badges. Again, you are still doing the fighting to win the badges, but you wouldn't have to fight three, close out the spire, open the badge window, collect the badge, close that window, open the spire, repeat. Also, if you are collecting both marbles and ghosts from tournament, you are probably fighting two encounters, open badge window, collect marble badge, close badge window, open next province and fight, open badge window, collect ghost badge, close window, repeat.

Spell/KP use Badges (Tiara and Wonder Society) - these roll over. If you use a 30 AWKP instant on an AW, you get three badges. This makes collecting these less tedious when giving 100 KP on a swap to a neighbor. I realize tiaras are probably less tedious, but it is still a lot of clicking to apply three spells, back out of the spell window, open the badge window, collect the badge, close window, open inventory, select spell, apply three times, repeat.

 

[Lelanya]

Huh
@Elivar
Building a fellowship these days takes a lot of work and effort. There are multiple factors to balance:
Regular goods and player levels, then the same for Sentients.
Tournament goals.
Fellowship Adventures, in terms of offsite skills, add in a number cruncher, and then cities in chapters that optimize bracelet production.
Then still accommodate Spire goals.

I have a few grey hairs trying to balance all that and still keep a good atmosphere with players who enjoy each other's company, who enjoy the game in its current form (and I can write a book about just this). Yeah so I just want to thank you for urging players to just move on if their current fellowship didn't suit them this time around!

FA has added a fresh round of extra effort in this regard, just sayin', on top of the effort to balance tourney and spire.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not sure why you think sarcasm is a good conversation starter. I could see a reason to why there's trouble in the FS-paradise ;-)

But again, it just states my point, that it's a player problem, not an INNO problem. It's not their problem that we can't be nice, work together, play and just have fun.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

But again, it just states my point, that it's a player problem, not an INNO problem. It's not their problem that we can't be nice, work together, play and just have fun.

I couldn't disagree more.
The FA design has major flaws which lead to unnecessary frustration.
It is absolutely an INNO problem.

Telling players that they just need to communicate better while giving them 2 cups and a string to work with is ridiculous.

 

[DeletedUser]

I couldn't disagree more.
The FA design has major flaws which lead to unnecessary frustration.
It is absolutely an INNO problem.

Telling players that they just need to communicate better while giving them 2 cups and a string to work with is ridiculous.

This is of course your point to have. I don't see it as having major flaws - it has some.

And, I'm not trying to be rude here; But why is it that just because you get frustrated, or some other player for that matter, that it's allowed to get annoying or even rude to other people, and then says it's INNO's problem ?

I can't see why my behaviour as an idiot can be excused just because i get frustrated with the game.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

And, I'm not trying to be rude here; But why is it that just because you get frustrated, or some other player for that matter, that it's allowed to get annoying or even rude to other people, and then says it's INNO's problem ?

1. Where was I frustrated? I find the FA interface tedious and boring, but the prizes also suck so it doesn't actually affect me, I just want a better game for everyone.
2. Where's this "rudeness" you speak of?

I can't see why my behaviour as an idiot can be excused just because i get frustrated with the game.

Sorry, could you clarify this statement, please? Are you asking us to not forgive you for being an idiot? Your wording is a little vague and I didn't see anyone calling you an idiot, so it's confusing.

 

[DeletedUser]

1. Where was I frustrated? I find the FA interface tedious and boring, but the prizes also suck so it doesn't actually affect me, I just want a better game for everyone.
2. Where's this "rudeness" you speak of?

Sorry, could you clarify this statement, please? Are you asking us to not forgive you for being an idiot? Your wording is a little vague and I didn't see anyone calling you an idiot, so it's confusing.

We're talking about players being frustrated, acting out and breaking up FS' because of the FA. I also wrote "you get frustrated, or some other player". It's a question to IF you or any other player would behave like that, and that that just would be okay.

And to that i answer myself, for myself; Why in the world should you accept me treating you or acting out on you like an idiot, just because i got frustrated with how the game is.

I hope this makes it clearer. If it doesn't, it just have to be like that. I can't find and write all the other comments to this. It's in the ones preceding these.

Bottom line is that we have different views on how bad the FA is; And that's okay

 

[BlueBlou]

Gents, you don’t need to fight. The top teams on all three EN worlds understand the nature of the FA beast. I have played, or are playing, in teams with various capabilities and there is one thing I can say for sure: The current version we are playing demands a team with active participating players. Gone are the days where an individual city with 400 workshops and t1 sets could determine the placing of a fellowship in the top 3. We may not like all the badges we are required to do now, but it is does require a team to play all aspects of the game.

 

[anonglitch]

Hey, let's all remember this is a friendly place to share our opinions and differences, as well as likes, and dislikes about Elvenar. Let's keep this nice conversation a friendly one

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Bottom line is that we have different views on how bad the FA is; And that's okay

I suppose it's OK, but it's certainly not ideal. Pushing aside the dream that we'd have disagreements about how great it is instead of how bad it is,
If we had an actual consensus on what needs to be improved for the FA to be more enjoyable then the developers might actually do it.

The residue badges are controversial because while they are diamond capped unlike other badges, they also create a bottle-neck which means having vast shantytowns is less effective. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to personal taste.

The interface however could absolutely be improved.

 

[Gargon667]

If we had an actual consensus on what needs to be improved for the FA to be more enjoyable then the developers might actually do it.

highly optimistic

I suppose it's OK, but it's certainly not ideal. Pushing aside the dream that we'd have disagreements about how great it is instead of how bad it is,

If the game was perfect and I had no ideas how to improve it I sure wouldn´t be here, but I guess that would be a good thing...

The residue badges are controversial because while they are diamond capped unlike other badges, they also create a bottle-neck which means having vast shantytowns is less effective. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to personal taste.

I don´t find them diamond capped, it´s just regular gameplay for me The only possible use of diamonds to improve tourney/spire performance without drawbacks. In my case the badges are catalyst capped (I gain more diamonds than CC from the spire).
Also I can´t say that they are limiting FA scores (at least not for scores below 120k points), in our case we actually were again Shanty town limited, against all my predictions... well the 2 tourney design helped with that of course...

The interface however could absolutely be improved.

Sure could But not of the highest importance...

 

[Pauly7]

In my case the badges are catalyst capped (I gain more diamonds than CC from the spire).

Except not really, because I bet you have tons of time boosters to make more CCs.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Sure could But not of the highest importance...

What would be higher on your wish list?
Other than a vague notion that I'd like all events to be "more interesting/challenging" I don't think I actually have I'd actually like changed more.

 

[Far Reach]

The residue badges are controversial because while they are diamond capped unlike other badges, they also create a bottle-neck which means having vast shantytowns is less effective. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to personal taste.

I don´t find them diamond capped, it´s just regular gameplay for me

That is good for you of course, but I very much doubt that this is typical of the player-base as a whole. Most Fellowships aren't getting Gold in the Spire every week, and even in the few that are, I strongly suspect that the large majority of players have other priorities for their diamonds (particularly expansions which are important for City Progression generally). As such @SoggyShorts makes a valid point.

Also I can´t say that they are limiting FA scores (at least not for scores below 120k points), in our case we actually were again Shanty town limited, against all my predictions... well the 2 tourney design helped with that of course...

This depends on the strategy being followed. If space (and not diamonds) is your limitation, then the obvious solution (if the FA is the primary objective) is to use some diamonds to purchase premium expansions. I crunched some numbers after the previous FA, and estimated that scores of 150k+ were realistic for my Fellowship (and yours) if we collectively focused solely on the Adventures (which is unlikely). As soon as other conflicting priorities start come into play (Tournaments, City Progression etc.) then the likely scores start to come down. Realistically I suspect that (without spending cash) the large majority of Fellowships (including my own) have diamonds as the limiting factor.

Out of curiousity, Swags did extremely well last FA (scoring close to 120k I think). Do you have any stats on how many diamonds you spent and Workshops you built etc. ?

 

[Pauly7]

The problem with Arcane Residue is that for the teams near the top they do not become the limiting factor. The reason is that they are easy to buy with time boosters and diamonds. So even though the intention with the changes to the FA is to limit shanty towns, that hasn't had the desired effect with the most competitive teams. In practice they still make as many shanty town badges as they always did, but now they just spend more and more resources to try to make up the numbers of those other badges, which are demonstrably easier to time-boost or diamond-boost than production badges.