A game should be fun ... this has become just a chore.

[Deleted User - 1759805]

But I assume in theory someone who started playing the game when it came out and prepared from day 1 for doing a 40k tourney (that means years before tourneys were even invented) could have gotten there

So basically the answer is no. People who got to 30K got there by dumping massive amounts of timeboosts into their scouts for months. This has only became possible for about that time. Even if someone had prescience to do this years ago that would not be possible as we didn't have all those sources of timeboosts we do today.

As many other things this could (in theory) have been done with diamonds, but I doubt anyone would call that sustainable.

 

[Killiak]

Just because this has been going on for so long, I will add the facts, because I disagree with both the above statements:

And then you proceed to agree with me on pretty much everything except the sustainability.

Could it be done? Yes. If you have the provinces, you could do it.
Sustainability? I say no, you say yes.
Long time? Yup, you even said so yourself; years of scouting.
Massive effort? Oh yeah, 149 provinces right. That's a lot of effort under the old system.

So really Gargon, you agree on almost every point.


And no; this form of tournament is NOT better. It never will be as long as it punishes people for growing their city. One-click provinces does not compensate for that, at all, and never will.

 

[Pauly7]

And no; this form of tournament is NOT better. It never will be as long as it punishes people for growing their city. One-click provinces does not compensate for that, at all, and never will.

I agree. Even though I agree with @Gargon667's principle that reducing the number of encounters and making the combat more varied is an improvement. I also have no objection to the rewards being reduced, but the fact that they have made progression past a certain point counter-productive and the fact that they have made many Ancient Wonders detrimental to tournament progress just makes a mockery of the whole thing. It's not just that it's got worse. It makes it entirely pointless as a competition - It's now just something interesting for a new player until they catch up with the futility of the exercise.

There has been a lot of talk about which AWs now only hurt tournament scores (despite what they promised), but to take it one step further there is also the point where some of the trusty military wonders also become hurtful. I am not sure exactly when this would happen, but once someone gets to a cut-off point when the squad-size is so big that the next fight is unwinnable (under normal circumstances, let's not get into dropping tons more UUU buildings), then adding one more level a reliable military wonder such as Flying Academy would do nothing to win that next fight and hence upgrading it becomes another step backwards. The whole idea of any Ancient Wonders being included in this formula is nonsense.

 

[Gargon667]

And then you proceed to agree with me on pretty much everything except the sustainability.

Could it be done? Yes. If you have the provinces, you could do it.
Sustainability? I say no, you say yes.
Long time? Yup, you even said so yourself; years of scouting.
Massive effort? Oh yeah, 149 provinces right. That's a lot of effort under the old system.

So really Gargon, you agree on almost every point.


And no; this form of tournament is NOT better. It never will be as long as it punishes people for growing their city. One-click provinces does not compensate for that, at all, and never will.

You said 2 things:
- Somebody did 40k in a tourney, I say no.
- you said it would be unsustainable, I say it would have been.

since I didn´t say I disagree with anything else, I suppose I agreed with everything else you said indeed.

Oh and I don´t necessarily think the new tourneys are better than the old ones, I would have a very hard time choosing either old or new as "better" since both are horrible. What I meant to say is that i like the new ones better, they are more fun, mostly because the difficulty went up, the old ones were so insanely dumb with autofighting entire tourneys with the same 5 units. Just imagine the last steel tourney: 1800 encounters, every single one of them I used 5 Rangers and hit autofight. I would never want that nonsense back, I rather delete half of my AWs than go back to that! I prefer to get 10k points over 20k points if it means I don´t have to go back. I get half the KP/relics/runes/enchantments? Yes please as long as I don´t have to physically hurt my fingers anymore and instead am allowed to use my brain on the occasional difficult encounter (or hit cater if I don´t want to think).

So I guess if I have to use your words: Yes 1-click provices do compensate for stopping city growth, but I find those are the rather less important changes... I would say: Increased challenge does make up for a completely stupid multiplicative formula that no dev proud of his job can ever approve of.

 

[Killiak]

You said 2 things:
- Somebody did 40k in a tourney, I say no.

I did not say that, at all. Go back, read it again.

So I guess if I have to use your words: Yes 1-click provices do compensate for stopping city growth, but I find those are the rather less important changes... I would say: Increased challenge does make up for a completely stupid multiplicative formula that no dev proud of his job can ever approve of.

Also; we will continue to disagree then. Your personal opinion, to me, is nothing but an incredibly weak argument. You are practically forgiving the devs for the bad job they did, and I most certainly do not.

 

[Gargon667]

There has been a lot of talk about which AWs now only hurt tournament scores (despite what they promised), but to take it one step further there is also the point where some of the trusty military wonders also become hurtful. I am not sure exactly when this would happen, but once someone gets to a cut-off point when the squad-size is so big that the next fight is unwinnable (under normal circumstances, let's not get into dropping tons more UUU buildings), then adding one more level a reliable military wonder such as Flying Academy would do nothing to win that next fight and hence upgrading it becomes another step backwards. The whole idea of any Ancient Wonders being included in this formula is nonsense.

True I am actually thinking about getting rid of/not building some Military AWs. The FA is however a bad example, is not one that will ever be in question. Even if you get to a point where the FA would cause the problem you describe, I would go and upgrade the FA and delete a different AW instead... victory Springs and Heroes forge would be good examples for military wonders that might hurt more than help... And yes I agree that makes no sense at all.
I would not blame the inclusion of AW itself, I only blame the multiplication that causes this problem, and additive formula can easily increase difficulty according to AW levels while keeping benefits higher than costs. Given that the AWs actually have a measurable benefit, which many AWs do not. But excluding them from the formula for being useless is a sorry excuse for balancing, I would say instead give these AWs an actual benefit! It doesn´t have to be a military benefit, just a useful one. Even as the game is right now I will keep a few non-military AWs, because they are good enough to be worth the pain. Decrease the pain (not to 0, just to less than 100%) and at the same time improve the benefits to make them useful.

 

[Gargon667]

I did not say that, at all. Go back, read it again.

Also; we will continue to disagree then. Your personal opinion, to me, is nothing but an incredibly weak argument. You are practically forgiving the devs for the bad job they did, and I most certainly do not.

I never forgave the devs anything, I blame them for having done a worse job before! They went from negative 100 to negative 90, I want them to go to plus 100 (or at least 0 for starters), not back to negative 100.

I agree with you, if you never said it I cannot disagree with it, no matter how much I want to! So take what I said as a statement not directed to you, but to whoever claimed that someone did 40k points in a tourney. It never happened.

If you like my opinion or not is rather unimportant. It is what it is, so is yours, did I miss any actual facts in your opinion?
We will agree to disagree I assume, even though you blamed me for claiming to disagree while actually agreeing with you. I have to admit, I love this and will promise to continue disagreeing with agreements

 

[Killiak]

@Gargon667
All it takes is for Inno to read your posts as badly as you did mine. They will say people like it, and leave the Tournament as it is now.
As you might have noticed, I have zero faith in Inno at this point simply because they have proven to me in the past that they will implement a change... and leave it as is, even if it has a broken formula.

All that said; yes, we disagree. A lot.

 

[Gargon667]

@Gargon667
All it takes is for Inno to read your posts as badly as you did mine. They will say people like it, and leave the Tournament as it is now.
As you might have noticed, I have zero faith in Inno at this point simply because they have proven to me in the past that they will implement a change... and leave it as is, even if it has a broken formula.

All that said; yes, we disagree. A lot.

And you still overestimate Inno:
They will never read this, the only ones who read this are forum mods. Mods know exactly how we feel about it (we have literally told them more than 100 times), no matter how you can interpret my comment (btw I am one of the biggest critics of the new tourneys). The mods will make a summary of it and pass on what we feel to Inno, and it will then be ignored by Inno, if it is not what they want to do and it will be listened to if Inno was going to do it anyway.

Inno is a company, faith in companies is a completely silly notion to start with. The only thing you can have faith in with any company is that they will try to earn money. That is their job and nothing else. Inno believes that the new tourney will make them more money than the old one. I would not bet my live on that being the case, but I think chances are they are correct in that assumption. Not because the new product is better than the old one, but because they can make more money from it. The target group is a different one and they seem to be of the opinion that there is more money in the new target group as opposed to the old target group. And as I said I think it is more likely they are correct (in the short term) than wrong in that assumption. The long run is a different question, but of no importance to Inno (as for many companies in unstable environments). In my opinion noone in the part of the company that is responsible for the game has a longer view into the future than 2 weeks. While the business end of the company is somewhat further thinking, probably mostly interested in the quarterly reports. Past that one pretends to care and does the opposite.

 

[Pauly7]

The FA is however a bad example, is not one that will ever be in question. Even if you get to a point where the FA would cause the problem you describe, I would go and upgrade the FA and delete a different AW instead... victory Springs and Heroes forge would be good examples for military wonders that might hurt more than help.

I picked FA as the extreme example because that's the one AW that most people universally accept that it will be beneficial to continue to upgrade. I don't disagree with your solution in deleting other AWs to compensate, but the fact remains that there will be a certain point in tournament progression where adding one more single level to an FA could have a negative impact on a tournament score because all it's doing is delivering troops faster and there will be a limit where none of those extra troops are effective.

It just goes to show how little forethought some aspects of this new formula have had. This is especially evident when they make claims like "every extra AW level will have a net positive impact" (paraphrasing). Not only is it completely untrue where some Wonders are concerned, but it's partially untrue where most Wonders are concerned. The only AW that I would be quite confident in at all times is Sanctuary/Martial Monastery, especially as that doesn't have the poisonous levels 31-35.

 

[DeletedUser7105]

I hate the changes made to the tournament. It was fun the way it was. Now that INNO has completed its second beta test by using our server as a test site, the overall opinion of the players is exactly the same. Players hate the new tournament structure, and many (like I) are seriously thinking about ceasing to play this game. No fun, I stop playing.

 

[Silmaril]

Guys we have repeatedly asked that any tournament feedback whatsoever is kept to the Tournament thread and that thread ONLY seeing as this seems to be diverting from that considerably, we are closing this thread.