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A game should be fun ... this has become just a chore.

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Pauly7

Magus
I don't have enough trrops under the new ournament system to figh both tournament and Spire. So the Spire is by diplomacy. On the first level that requires a litle thought, and to fail a station is really unlucky. At the second level it bcomes more dificult and I might ned to use diamonds on the last station. By the time you get to the third level, routinely trying to place 7 different items in varying amounts from 0 to 5 into 5 spaces in three goes it is almost impossible. You have to be extremely lucky to do it. The choice is diamonds and you end up spending more diamonds than you win, or retrying the station, and my complaint here is that the costs of supplies, coins, goods, sentient goods and Orcs at these stations is far to high on Level 3 so that having to retry most stations 2 or 3 times is draining my city. I can only attempt the full spire about once every 6 weeks, and I'm still getting through my stocks of coins and supplies instants dspite having magic residences and workshops. The Spire costs are now far too high under the new tournament system
I always cater my way through the Spire. Always have done. Unless I get lucky I will use 25 diamonds on the final encounter. I occasionally use another 25 diamonds on some of the other final encounters of each section on the third stage, (these are the ones with 7 choices) but that's only if I'm impatient or if I'm particularly low of something. It still comes down to patience because if I lose a couple and need to come back later with my resources replenished then there is usually plenty of time for that. All other encounters on stage 3 have 6 options and they are easily possible to win, even though you may lose some of them on the first try.

In my opinion trying to fight on the third level is just way too costly, unless you have a firebird fed and plenty of active combat buildings to help. This all depends, however, on how you are set up for resource and troop production. I don't want to burn through any of the troops I need for tournaments in the Spire.
 

DeletedUser5306

Guest
I always cater my way through the Spire. Always have done. Unless I get lucky I will use 25 diamonds on the final encounter. I occasionally use another 25 diamonds on some of the other final encounters of each section on the third stage, (these are the ones with 7 choices) but that's only if I'm impatient or if I'm particularly low of something. It still comes down to patience because if I lose a couple and need to come back later with my resources replenished then there is usually plenty of time for that. All other encounters on stage 3 have 6 options and they are easily possible to win, even though you may lose some of them on the first try.

In my opinion trying to fight on the third level is just way too costly, unless you have a firebird fed and plenty of active combat buildings to help. This all depends, however, on how you are set up for resource and troop production. I don't want to burn through any of the troops I need for tournaments in the Spire.

I completely agree with you and do exactly the same :)
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Just don´t go in and do it blindly. If the first guess sucks, restart immediately instead of wasting resources on something you are not going to win anyway. 6 resources can take a few tries, but it is always possible without spending diamonds. 7 is also where I draw the line and if necessary spend 25 diamonds (but only if I have 100% certainty about what goes in after paying)
Always check and see if fighting may be easy. If you have booster buildings/firebird from playing tourney, most fights are easy (often zero losses if you manual fight), otherwise fewer are.
The spire can easily be completed 100% fighting or 100% catering or any combination thereof.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
6 resources is always possible without spending diamonds? Citation needed.

Explain the omnipotent strategy that never fails when the spirits have decided that they want 5 different resources?
 

Gargon667

Mentor
6 resources is always possible without spending diamonds? Citation needed.

Explain the omnipotent strategy that never fails when the spirits have decided that they want 5 different resources?

citing the big library of Gargon? dunno what else to cite. 6 often takes a couple of tries (but then again sometimes it works on the first try as well), but I don´t spend diamonds on them, because, well I find them more valuable than a couple extra guesses. Of course if you are extremely low on resources and high on diamonds that may be different...
Just for the sake of the point: 8 resources is possible without diamonds, too (every time, if you absolutely refuse to spend diamonds), it can just take a LOT of tries... but then again, this week (or was it last?) I got lucky and had the final boss on first try without diamonds. Many resources is not always more difficult. It all depends on your very first guess...

5 different resources (5 yellow on first guess) is actually one of the easier ones. because you know that each one is only there once, you don´t have to double try any of them (green means automatically red in any other). It also means you never have to try any of the resources you have skipped on first... If you have it on something like a 7 or 8 resource one, you are especially lucky. It´s not a 100% sure thing, but you have pretty good chances of getting it right in your standard 3 tries. If you did not get it right in 3rd you will nearly guaranteed (not 100% of course) have ended on a 50/50 chance which means 25 diamonds will get you 100% right in 4th.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
6 resources is always possible without spending diamonds? Citation needed.

Explain the omnipotent strategy that never fails when the spirits have decided that they want 5 different resources?

Just read it again: I guess you mean 100% right on 3rd every time? No I never said that. I said it can take a couple tries... but there is no need to spend diamonds if you don´t want to because chances are reasonably good, to not have to do it too often. I would say most often I take 1-5 tries to guess right without diamonds, but half of those I broke off after 1st guess. The occasional annoying one can take more, it is not unheard of...
 

Gargon667

Mentor
The word easily must have been erased from my vocabulary when it comes to the spire. Wasteful is what comes to mind.

I call it the most easily available huge gift basket in the game since the new tourney format started :) (The old tourney was handing out resources for basically free, which is why it had the nerf coming for a long time).
The spire gives me hundreds of hours of time boosts, hundred of diamonds and dozens of CCs, the occasional really big prize and a bunch of less important stuff (like small buildings, PPs, coin and supply instants and of course the rather inflationary Spell fragments) in exchange for a couple of troops and a bunch of resources which I have absolutely no other use for...
 

Sir Derf

Adept
That is some really weird wording, but I think I understand what you are describing now. I suggest that you knew what you meant, but your wording was such that it allowed others to infer a different interpretation.

I generally would consider the words "try" and "guess", as well as "offer" and "round" as synonymous with respect to the Spire negotiations. Select an arrangement of resources, press the "Offer" button, receive feedback.

You, however, appear to be describing starting negotiations, pressing the "Offer" button one or more times, and then abandoning the negotiation to start all over again as a "try". So, when you say " 6 resources can take a few tries, but it is always possible without spending diamonds. ", you mean it is always possible to win by making up to 3 offers at multiple different negotiations before solving one in 3 or less, not thta it is always possible to win your first and only negotiation in 3 or less.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
I am much in agreement with the OP's opinion that Elvenar has largely become, in effect...
[a] hamster wheel of time instants, supply instants, more troops, grab every troop booster, hope I get something useful in the MA or Spire, do an event, then do an FA to get the boosters that weren't possible in the event, do another event, need more boosters, make more troops, on and on and on [...]
... although I do not believe that this type of incessant and interrelated in-game activity has simply 'happened' because InnoGames is staffed by 'idiots' who do not realise the effect(s) of the long series of [more or less visibly] interconnected changes which they have made to the game. In fact, I believe this string of changes has been meticulously planned, and that the consequent increasing 'busy-ness' of the game, including the fast-growing significance of the game's competitive elements (the Spire and Tournaments - in that order of importance) is very far from accidental. And while I could (but probably won't) bore on at length about how and why the game has changed in the past two years or so, I will for now highlight just a couple of points which seem, to me, to be illustrative of the game's intended direction.

Oh no, I have to make choices in order to voluntarily participate up to arbitrarily chosen levels in the optional components of a game.
Optional? Realistically? If so: where else can anyone now gain, and even then rarely/randomly, any building which produces Diamonds?* Where else can we now win any Time Boosters? How else can players gain enough Time Boosters both to speed up gameplay - their original purpose, even if now often seen as secondary to Troop production, largely for use in the Spire (!) - and maintain the only other method of gaining Time Boosters, i.e. Crafting? And without Crafting, how can players obtain such semi-essentials as Orc Nests, Festival Merchants, and/or enough Combat Boosters to get anywhere in, er, primarily the Spire (again, the irony is apparent) and also, in their new 'Spire-style' incarnation, the Tournaments as well - which, in turn, provide Relics also needed for Crafting and Spells, including Combining Catalysts... again, needed for Crafting... and so on, and so forth.

* NB: In 'free to play' gaming, giving away some Premium Currency (e.g. via Genies) and/or Premium items (Magic Residences/Workshops) is known to be one of the best ways to encourage players to spend real money on further Premium Currency and/or items.

It must surely be obvious how important and interdependent - and therefore effectively required - the game's so-called 'optional' components (Tournaments, Crafting, and notably the Spire) have now become...? One could play without them, yes - but only very slowly, with very little to do, and with few reasons to log in more than occasionally. However, it is very well known in 'free to play' gaming that the less frequently players log in, and the less they have do to in-game, the fewer chances (and the less motivation) they have to spend money - and on another, but related, note, this basic premise of F2P gaming is also the (Inno-stated) cause of the shortening duration and increasing frequency of Events which we have seen lately.

Furthermore: Voluntarily? Are you sure? How many Fellowships which have any sort of success will for long happily tolerate any player (who doesn't have something 'special' to offer, such as a high personal Ranking or great Tournament score) who doesn't want to contribute to the Spire? There are some, I'm sure, but they are certainly in a minority. I suppose a solo player could ignore the Spire (which, incidentally, used to give far better personal rewards until it was 'improved' by having its best rewards 'redistributed' into the top-level Chests which can [without paying] only be won via a joint FS effort...), but then again: could such a player really keep their Crafting going for long without Time Boosters and Fragments earned in the Spire?

And finally: Arbitrarily chosen levels? Do you really believe that the Spire prize points (especially Diamond prizes) were randomly set, or are randomly chosen by players as ending points? I would be very surprised indeed if Innogames placed those prizes where they are by using guess-work, rather than by analysing existing game metrics and taking into account how much 'encouragement' to 'spend-to-win' Resources/Diamonds the average player will tolerate - especially considering that the initial, and more generous, individual prizes were reduced in favour of FS-level rewards - but only after the considerable initial hostility to the Spire (which many players may now forget?) had died down in the minds (and comments) of most.

As I've said, I could continue a lot further in this vein, but even based on what I've already said, there can be little doubt that, far from being genuinely 'optional', the Spire is fast becoming the centre of the game - and this is no accident, nor is it the result of players making unguided, 'optional' choices. The concept of the Spire, like all in-game mechanics of its type, is built squarely upon (a) peer pressure, (b) the re-categorising [or initial creation] of the game's best wins/rewards as Spire-only items, and/or (c) many players' sense of competition, with all of these factors being strong drivers of revenue in 'free' mobile games, since at least one of them will be difficult for the average player to resist - especially if they want to progress at any more than a snail's pace in what is already an intentionally very slow game full of mechanisms specifically designed to impede [non-paying] players' progress. And this strategy is evidently working, too, if Innogames' PR material is to be believed: while they do not go into detail, they do state that their 'conversion rate' (the percentage of players who convert from 'free' to 'paying') is between 5% and 20%, which is well above the F2P mobile gaming average.

I rarely cater the final level of the Spire; never unless the troops are too far out of whack. Always feed the Bird, drop an extra UU, or raise the Sanctuary, and then give get em. Use the Brown Bear to beef up the boys, too.
And if one has no Fire Phoenix or Brown Bear, and has seen only two or three UUU buildings in the Magic Academy in the past several months - or cannot afford to Craft them even when they do appear, due to a lack of CCs and/or Fragments (yet another non-accidental and hard to avoid Spire-Crafting connection)? Should it even be the case that, in a 'strategy-based' game, three of the four Combat-supporting (and arguably necessary) items you have listed here are available largely on the basis of RNG, if at all? - and the fourth (Sanctuary/Monastery) takes a very long time to level-up for the average, non-hardcore player and gives a comparatively small Combat advantage in return, with even this now being questionable because it also causes a Combat disadvantage due to the weighting given to AW levels in the Spire Squad Size calculation Formula.

And speaking of the Spire Squad Size Formula: without a Fire Phoenix and, in particular, Brown Bear, how does a player who does not have enough Troops even to fill five of the Spire's enormous and rapidly increasing later Squad Sizes have any choice about whether to use Diplomacy...?

I don't have enough trrops under the new ournament system to figh both tournament and Spire. So the Spire is by diplomacy. [...] I can only attempt the full spire about once every 6 weeks, and I'm still getting through my stocks of coins and supplies instants dspite having magic residences and workshops. The Spire costs are now far too high under the new tournament system
I have always considered the Spire Resource costs to be far too high, especially because Diamond expenditure is not so much an option (as it is, for example, in Events) as it is a requirement for many players who have to use the Spire's Diplomacy option in order to get anywhere. And now that I, for one, can no longer get far in the Tournament either without Catering to a level which I cannot afford, the Spire and Tournament costs together have now become, in my opinion, intentionally unsustainable for the average player who wishes to compete with others or even, in some cases, to make reasonable progress in what is an artificially slowed game, but who does not have the time or motivation to play in a 'hardcore' manner.

For me, it is bad enough that the Spire, which is being placed ever more centrally within the game, requires the sacrifice of large amounts of otherwise-needed Resources each week (especially for those who do not have long-term large stockpiles), but what makes it such a very apparent money-grab (rather than simply a Resource sink) is the fact that the Squad Sizes are so large that many players have no chance at all of fighting beyond the early Spire stages, and so must resort to Diplomacy if they are to win anything worth having - and even then, only if RNG allows. This is evidently intended to cost Diamonds in the long term, whether or not some players are either lucky enough and/or good enough at logic games (actually, both) to get through some or all of the Spire's higher stages without a net Diamond loss. The whole thing is so painfully obvious.
 

Verde

Soothsayer
And this strategy is evidently working, too, if Innogames' PR material is to be believed: while they do not go into detail, they do state that their 'conversion rate' (the percentage of players who convert from 'free' to 'paying') is between 5% and 20%, which is well above the F2P mobile gaming average.
It would be very interesting to know how many are going in the other direction ... from previously-paying (albeit maybe occasionally) to no-more-paying.
 

Pauly7

Magus
Insightful as always @Laurelin. The only thing I would say about the pace of the game and the F2P vs premium options is that there are still many of us (and many of the people who are likely to post in the forums) who have been playing this game since before there was any such thing as a time reducing instant or an AWKP instant. Arguably the pace of the game was faster back then for end-gamers than it is now, but there are many people who got hooked on this game because of its slow pace. You will still find many people who say they would rather go back to having just an event every three months and plenty of time in between to chill and build their cities.

Yes many, if not most, of those players now find themselves spending more money than they used to three years ago, but I can't help but feel that there is still the F2P choice if people wish to play how they did 'in the good old days'. There are still those out there. You are right, though, in that not many of those people will be able to keep a place in a top performing fellowship, but again some still opt out in favour of a slower paced Elvenar life.
 

Verde

Soothsayer
There have been so many useful enhancements to Usage aspects of the game in the last year or so ... Neighbourly Help, Messaging within the App, Ancient Wonder system enhanced and accessible from the App, the provinces overview on the browser, the improved FA badge system (remember the old one?) ... possibly more. Even the Event mechanics are not as bad as they were with the shuffleboard (although I'll take that statement back if the shuffleboard ever reappears).

And then we have the tourney changes ...
Are there two completely different development teams working at Inno?
 

DeletedUser7436

Guest
Thank you @Laurelin .

Couldn't agree more that Inno are anything but idiots ... words spoken in frustration and anger.

My mother was an avid poker machine player (aka addicted gambler). The similarities and the strategies to keep people playing, and eventually paying, are damned obvious.

And that's what is so annoying - it was a nice relaxing leisurely game when I started, all about the beautiful graphics, the fun events with interesting stories, the occasional linked buildings. Then the camaraderie of a great fellowship, helping each other out, chatting and laughing.... Luckily those elements are still here, or more people would have left, I'm sure.
 

Deleted User - 495278

Guest
Yes thank you @Laurelin, it was a bit long winded, but what you said was put far better than I could.
I've got to the constructs level and now have reached maximum province expansions so this is as far as I'll be going. I saw very early on how this game was `designed' and I don't fall for it, it served its purpose. But being constantly asked for more and more and getting less and less, will always reach a point where the non addicted sees it for what it is. I work to get money, I don't spend money to work!
 

DeletedUser664

Guest
Some may do that, we beat them all, feel free to check our membership changes...
yes we have 25 FA townsand we also have 25 tourney towns and 25 spire towns on top of that :) All in the same FS at the same time. Must be cheating can´t explain it any other way :p

Can´t talk about rewards, I never look at them, there usually are 2 artifacts for some evolving building or other and not much besides, but who cares, that is not what FAs are about. FAs are the best part of the game and the only reason I am still around :) There never is as much energy and fun in our FS as there is during this one week.
Good for you, that's quite an accomplishment :cool:. On Arrendyl, things are different. The #1 FA fellowship is purpose built, just for FA's. They suck in tourneys, and in the Spire. Low ranked FS. They are far and away the best FA group though. The other high ranking FA fellowships are purpose built as well. Nobody goes all three ways though. And certainly not four ways when you include FS ranking.

Our philosophy is to be active, and compete where we feel it's worth it. So we do well in tourneys and the spire. FA's not so much - intentionally. But we value all around activity, and stability with no drama. Things are always busy, not just during FA's. We're the #1 ranked FS, have been for years, and have a very stable membership.

I did check your membership changes as I was curious. You have 4 times the membership turnover we do - 183 joined or left in the same timeframe we had 47. To each his own :)
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Good for you, that's quite an accomplishment :cool:. On Arrendyl, things are different. The #1 FA fellowship is purpose built, just for FA's. They suck in tourneys, and in the Spire. Low ranked FS. They are far and away the best FA group though. The other high ranking FA fellowships are purpose built as well. Nobody goes all three ways though. And certainly not four ways when you include FS ranking.

Our philosophy is to be active, and compete where we feel it's worth it. So we do well in tourneys and the spire. FA's not so much - intentionally. But we value all around activity, and stability with no drama. Things are always busy, not just during FA's. We're the #1 ranked FS, have been for years, and have a very stable membership.

I did check your membership changes as I was curious. You have 4 times the membership turnover we do - 183 joined or left in the same timeframe we had 47. To each his own :)

It´s not easy playing for a win in every event and it does come at a cost. On the other hand I wouldn´t even call it cost as a bad thing. I find change a good thing, but I guess majority of elvenar players are rather opposed to change... Anyway if all you do is go for ranks, there is not going be a lot of change in membership. Even completely inactive towns can provide that. That doesn´t work for us of course... As you say, to each his own. The variety of FS out there is what guarantees that there is one FS for everybody. And we are the one for the hyperactive segment of elvenars population. And when people want to play less actively they retire to some lower activity FS, I can´t see anything bad with that. I might do the same some day and leave the space in the crazy place to someone more crazy to keep Swag going at top speed. But until then I enjoy the ride.
 

Master Arthur

Alchemist
For one, I do not understand the reasons behind all the bad press this game is receiving within this thread. Yes, the tournament is a different challenge but we have achieved 10 chests ever since the new format came into effect. We only achieved this previously when we had push tournament. Surely, we all play this game so that we can pit our wits against these various challenges and say look we have achieved this or that. Our Fellowship has only been around for 15 months and yet as a TEAM we have had, and are still having, great fun as we have moved up to 27th place in our league table in that time. From the various changes that have been made, I am convinced that our team in INNO are listening and try as much as possible to make this game a rewarding one to play. Yes, I also have a moan from time to time but if we offer constructive suggestions then the chances are that they will be considered, if INNO think they add something to the game.
 

Killiak

Artisan
@Master Arthur You and your FS got something extra out of it.

A lot of people however feel they got screwed over; because they worked hard to build efficiënt cities which were good at the tournament. That got taken away from them on a personal level, with a very large Inno nerf-hammer.

There is nothing hard to understand about this.
 
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