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You knew it was coming....
- Thread starter Herodite
- Start date
Sharazukah
Dreamer
When does the reduction of requirement for AW upgrades become live in the real game? I am waiting for a long time and nothing happened. It is the 11th of March already. No change. I still need the same large amount of catalysts and spell fragments as I did before. I had issues to log into the forum for ages. Now it finally worked.
Hekata
Artisan
We expect it to be tomorrow however no official announcement (on Discord) has been made yet.
SkyRider99
Mentor
I am under the impression that it has already 'reduced'. According to @Herodite message the 'reduction' was the new regime that imposed the need for SFs and CCs to upgrade the AWs.
The part of Herodite's notification I am basing this on is:
We want Ancient Wonders to be a fair challenge. But as they use different resources and are harder to obtain at the beginning of a chapter, compared to at the end, we have listened to player feedback to change this to improve gameplay. We have spent time reworking them, in the process totally changing their costs, and removing the barriers you told us about. Now you will need Spell Fragments, Combining Catalysts, and Royal Restorations, the same as you already do in Chapter 21. Again we listened to your feedback on this chapter and we have also now reduced these costs for the chapter by 50%!
Of course if there are further reductions to come, that would only be fair and reasonable. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it!
dennise
Soothsayer
I think that 50% reduction was just for chapter 21 @SkyRider99
Jake65
Sage
Now! is starting to look a bit nervous, keeps peering over it's shoulder at my toaster........
OldHag
Necromancer
'Now' is Toast
Kazzandra
Alchemist
Killiak
Artisan
A poor change remains a poor change. The cost in terms of Fragments, CC and RR is still FAR higher than it used to be when it was limited to just two ancient wonders.
Turning up the costs to 11 and then tuning it down after the backlash might even be seen as a tactic from Inno to make this terrible change go down easier with the playerbase. Doesn't matter; the change sucks and Inno knows it.
SkyRider99
Mentor
I totally agree @Killiak.
I have mostly seen AWs as a way to offset the penalties imposed by the game. For example, mana decay etc. But now the Inno whiz-kids have devised new and wonderful methods to enforce their weird and sadistic punishment. It's not bad enough that they demand huge numbers of SFs and CCs (and RRs) to upgrade, but with some perverted sense of humour they now offer crafting options in the MA where we can produce SFs by throwing CCs away! Bizarre!!
SkyRider99
Mentor
Metaphorically speaking. With a passing allusion to militaristic dictatorships and mind control.
Kazzandra
Alchemist
You misunderstood me.Metaphorically speaking. With a passing allusion to militaristic dictatorships and mind control.
Was it a new regime that made these extreme changes, or the same people?
SkyRider99
Mentor
Ahh. I did indeed misunderstand. For my part, it seems unimportant what persons were involved. We are all just pawns in their game. The 'regime' I mentioned was related to the new processes and rules forcefully imposed by the game. These may have arisen from new Inno employees, or existing megalomaniacs. For me it is not relevant which it was. We still got screwed.
Pauly7
Magus
I know this debate it old news now, but my thoughts, as I am here, just briefly...
I honestly don't have any issue with the output changes of the AWs, and I don't really have any problem with the CCs and spell fragment costs. Sorry, I know that sounds controversial. This is partly because I have mellowed massively during my time in the wilderness and I am very much more of the frame of mind that whatever decisions they make, hey let's just go for it and see how we cope and adapt. However, it isn't just that.
Somewhere back there, someone (or some people) talked about how long it would take to upgrade every AW to level 35 and how it was unreasonable how long that might take. I think that line of thought may miss the point slightly. Right at the very start of this, Inno explained how it had become way too easy to upgrade AWs, and how they were always intended to be aspirational things that took lots of time to accomplish. So I would say the idea is that you are meant to pick some of the wonders that match your style and work on those, and know that even they will take some time.
When the AWs were first conceived of, for those that remember back that far, they were tough to upgrade. KP came from your hourly KP timer and it came from tournaments. It was much harder to score big in tournaments. I remember placing first on the server with a tournament score of 5,900. And that wasn't on a difficult week. Back then most fellowships struggled to make 40k for the blueprint. An individual tournament score of 1,500 - 2,000 was considered a good contribution. These days a score of 10k won't even make the top 50. So... if someone had a level 27 Sanctuary, it would take 5 or more weeks to upgrade it because KP was the limiting factor.
These days, people are averaging triple or quadruple the KP from tournaments. There are all sorts of evolving buildings giving out KP. There are KP instants. There are rewards everywhere. KP is no longer a limiting factor. So what they did was put the brakes on everyone by charging spell fragments and CCs. That level 27 Sanctuary can still be upgraded in 4 or 5 weeks. They have just slowed it back down again. Especially with the recent cost reduction, I don't think it's that unreasonable.
Sure, they want people to spend money to buy diamonds to make things easier. That's always going to be the case. But that brings on my next point, which is how freely available diamonds are now. Back in those days I mentioned, the only way to get diamonds was to buy them. Literally. Now, they come in their hundreds from Spire, from mystical objects, from genies, from other rewards. Inno shot themselves in the foot. They should have left diamonds as premium currency and they probably wouldn't need to take these other steps to try to make people use up their supplies.
However... my big issue is the Royal Restoration cost for the the big upgrades at level 16, 21, etc. As I mentioned in my other post, my own game position is like this - I have 49 Royal Restoration spells in hand. I am shortly going to move to a new chapter where I will need 914 of them to upgrade all my evolving buildings, etc to the new chapter. So, for me, I am now never going to upgrade another AW to one of those big levels, and I am never going to build a new one. To me, RRs are just too valuable for upgrading culture buildings.
Now, I realise that for others this may be completely different. Maybe there aren't many people like me that have every evolving building ever released in their city. Maybe many people are happy to just ditch culture buildings and replace them with the next one. However, that is not for me. So, for my personal journey, I am only really disappointed that they made AW upgrades cost RRs. Because in my opinion, this is not what they are for.
I realise that what I say is slightly hypocritical. Obviously I, too, can use all these extra accrued diamonds to purchase more RR spells. So I am not going to condemn Inno's decisions, even on this point. I will just say that this is where I, personally, am disappointed, because this is how it affects my own game adversely.
The one real problem is the imbalance between new and old players, as many others have already mentioned. These new costs only affect you if you haven't yet built and upgraded those wonders. How is this solved? It can't be. Will this put off new players? Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe players will accept they are never going to get that high powered. That's for Inno to reconcile with themselves. Because the future of the game depends on it.
Paul
I honestly don't have any issue with the output changes of the AWs, and I don't really have any problem with the CCs and spell fragment costs. Sorry, I know that sounds controversial. This is partly because I have mellowed massively during my time in the wilderness and I am very much more of the frame of mind that whatever decisions they make, hey let's just go for it and see how we cope and adapt. However, it isn't just that.
Somewhere back there, someone (or some people) talked about how long it would take to upgrade every AW to level 35 and how it was unreasonable how long that might take. I think that line of thought may miss the point slightly. Right at the very start of this, Inno explained how it had become way too easy to upgrade AWs, and how they were always intended to be aspirational things that took lots of time to accomplish. So I would say the idea is that you are meant to pick some of the wonders that match your style and work on those, and know that even they will take some time.
When the AWs were first conceived of, for those that remember back that far, they were tough to upgrade. KP came from your hourly KP timer and it came from tournaments. It was much harder to score big in tournaments. I remember placing first on the server with a tournament score of 5,900. And that wasn't on a difficult week. Back then most fellowships struggled to make 40k for the blueprint. An individual tournament score of 1,500 - 2,000 was considered a good contribution. These days a score of 10k won't even make the top 50. So... if someone had a level 27 Sanctuary, it would take 5 or more weeks to upgrade it because KP was the limiting factor.
These days, people are averaging triple or quadruple the KP from tournaments. There are all sorts of evolving buildings giving out KP. There are KP instants. There are rewards everywhere. KP is no longer a limiting factor. So what they did was put the brakes on everyone by charging spell fragments and CCs. That level 27 Sanctuary can still be upgraded in 4 or 5 weeks. They have just slowed it back down again. Especially with the recent cost reduction, I don't think it's that unreasonable.
Sure, they want people to spend money to buy diamonds to make things easier. That's always going to be the case. But that brings on my next point, which is how freely available diamonds are now. Back in those days I mentioned, the only way to get diamonds was to buy them. Literally. Now, they come in their hundreds from Spire, from mystical objects, from genies, from other rewards. Inno shot themselves in the foot. They should have left diamonds as premium currency and they probably wouldn't need to take these other steps to try to make people use up their supplies.
However... my big issue is the Royal Restoration cost for the the big upgrades at level 16, 21, etc. As I mentioned in my other post, my own game position is like this - I have 49 Royal Restoration spells in hand. I am shortly going to move to a new chapter where I will need 914 of them to upgrade all my evolving buildings, etc to the new chapter. So, for me, I am now never going to upgrade another AW to one of those big levels, and I am never going to build a new one. To me, RRs are just too valuable for upgrading culture buildings.
Now, I realise that for others this may be completely different. Maybe there aren't many people like me that have every evolving building ever released in their city. Maybe many people are happy to just ditch culture buildings and replace them with the next one. However, that is not for me. So, for my personal journey, I am only really disappointed that they made AW upgrades cost RRs. Because in my opinion, this is not what they are for.
I realise that what I say is slightly hypocritical. Obviously I, too, can use all these extra accrued diamonds to purchase more RR spells. So I am not going to condemn Inno's decisions, even on this point. I will just say that this is where I, personally, am disappointed, because this is how it affects my own game adversely.
The one real problem is the imbalance between new and old players, as many others have already mentioned. These new costs only affect you if you haven't yet built and upgraded those wonders. How is this solved? It can't be. Will this put off new players? Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe players will accept they are never going to get that high powered. That's for Inno to reconcile with themselves. Because the future of the game depends on it.
Paul
Last edited:
Hekata
Artisan
Since I've been playing since those old days I do agree with what you said about AWs becoming too easy to upgrade with the massive inflow of KPs, especially since the poor decision to make runes equivalents of AWKPs.
But I think the problem is that they chose goods that are already very valuable in other in other parts of the game. So depending on how players play the game they will struggle with different items.
For insane those who like to keep their event buildings through chapters (like you and me) will struggle with RRs, those who like to compete in FA will struggle with SF and to a lesser extent with CC. Beginners will struggle with everything. Players who are in smaller and less active FS or on their own will also suffer a lot. In fact it's going to be nearly impossible to play without a FS now.
If the idea was just to make AW harder to upgrade then a better solution would have been to introduce a new item that would be hard to get and would be used only for upgrading AWs. The way they did it, they have made everything harder and people are forced to choose between AWs and other aspects of the game. But a lot of those other aspects of the game are dependent on AWs… So it's now a bit of a vicious cycle, especially for those who haven't built their most important AWs yet.
However, if experience with this game has thought as anything is that after every nerf, sooner or later, things get back to normal and all these problems are overcome. After the big tourney nerf everyone thought the scores were going to suffer. And they did for a short while but since then they have only gotten higher and higher. In fact we now have scores over 40k so basically one player gets all 10 chests by himself.
I guess we just have to be patient and eventually upgrading AWs will find a balance again (new buildings, new features etc…)
SkyRider99
Mentor
I just can't imagine what goes through their collective mind on any given day. Perhaps there's a method to their madness.
SkyRider99
Mentor
McBratty
Enchanter
Very well said Paul and I completely agree with you!
Anni-Lizzie
Spellcaster
I kind of agree… until you get to the 5-10-15-20 level and it starts asking for masses amounts of RR’s. How will any of us ever get ok with that unless we buy masses amounts of diamonds to get more ‘stuff’ - hey wait, (massive sarcasm alert) could that actually be inno’s dastardly plan all long????