spire reward change

[DeletedUser]

You might want to go back and read @Gargon667 's last post. He explained the situation accurately there.

For each tournament, each player has unique number (called their base squad size or BSS say) which is scaled to calculate their army size and average catering cost for every province and round. (The way in which is done is pretty straightforward and many of us figured it out just by looking at our individual cities. It is also described on the forums if you care to look). In the new tournament the calculation of the BSS is more complicated than before and requires quite a lot of data points to figure out. @MinMax Gamer crowdsourced these data points from many players and used to determine how BSS is computed.

One option you have is to use MinMax's calculator, playing around with the inputs in order to decide how you should develop your city. Alternatively you could seek a deeper understanding of the formula and systems. The answers you've got here and elsewhere should allow you to do that.

As far as AWs are concerned, the answer which I gave you when you asked the question on another thread (about the effect of AWs on tournaments) is all you need.

It still doesn't matter how much you think he explained it right, when i don't understand how he explained.

And it doesn't help talking down to me either.

I don't know what you're saying about the starting squad size TSS, nothings happens changing it. I don't know if the calculator is broken at the moment. Based upon the other data i put in, it calculates a number that seams right if i remember correctly.

So a question is now; If i don't change anything, don't upgrade AW's, don't place expansions and don't do research, do you say that my TSS is random and not the same as the tournament before ?

 

[Pauly7]

It's helpful to remember that the formula is multiplicative not additive, so there are an almost infinite number of permutations. Someone with 50 expansions will feel a much bigger effect of a few more AW levels than someone with 5 expansions.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's helpful to remember that the formula is multiplicative not additive, so there are an almost infinite number of permutations. Someone with 50 expansions will feel a much bigger effect of a few more AW levels than someone with 5 expansions.

According to the calculator this is very little.

I took 68 expansions vs 118 - And i went from 230 AW levels to 245.

There's only added 7 units extra per squad in the first province and 227 in province 30. So in its own, this is not much.

I tried going back 5 chapters, but that's of course a lot of research added, which adds up. The the rise is 153 units per squad in province 1 and 4598 in province 30. All made with my squad size 3066 and same tournament start squad.

 

[Gargon667]

I'm not sure we understand each other @Gargon667

Do you say that when an expansion is added, then ,AFTER that - NOT adding the expansion at the same time, adding (just an example) 1 AW level will add 2 units per squad on the first province first round ?

Yes and no

It will change yes, if you have more tech/provinces every AW levels will have a bigger effect.
How much it will change depends on the combination of all the factors. So it may still be 1 (rounding effect!) or it may change to another number like 2. it all depends. As I have said three times before, the whole thing is MUCH more complicated than you think.

 

[Gargon667]

I don't know what you're saying about the starting squad size TSS, nothings happens changing it. I don't know if the calculator is broken at the moment. Based upon the other data i put in, it calculates a number that seams right if i remember correctly.

So a question is now; If i don't change anything, don't upgrade AW's, don't place expansions and don't do research, do you say that my TSS is random and not the same as the tournament before ?

I don´t use the calculator, so I cannot say what it does and if it works, but I assume it does, because everybody else seems to think so.

No it is not random. If you change absolutely nothing in your city, the SS will stay the same.

What we say is that all the factors interact (by multiplication), so if you change one of the factors, it increases the weight of all the other factors.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes and no

It will change yes, if you have more tech/provinces every AW levels will have a bigger effect.
How much it will change depends on the combination of all the factors. So it may still be 1 (rounding effect!) or it may change to another number like 2. it all depends. As I have said three times before, the whole thing is MUCH more complicated than you think.

No, you make it complicated by drawing in all the other factors, when i only asked about AW level impact

I have 6 more researches i want to do, then i have all my troops 3* and that's what i want. I don't ned to move on through ch15. I have no need for more expansions placed. I have enough space, yes believe it or not So that's why this is so simple AND why i only asked about AW levels.

 

[Gargon667]

I tried going back 5 chapters, but that's of course a lot of research added, which adds up. The the rise is 153 units per squad in province 1 and 4598 in province 30. All made with my squad size 3066 and same tournament start squad.

Maybe it helps you more planning forward instead f nbackward? Create your "perfect city" and see where that puts you?
What chapter is it in? How many expansions do you want? Which AWs do you want ant which level?

And then look at how that city behaves when you change around parameters.

Also decide what tourney scores you want every week (that is by far the most important factor), If all you want is 2000 or 3000 points, you can simply forget all this. It has little importance, as you keep saying yourself and you are right. If you want 10k every week it matters a lot.

 

[Gargon667]

No, you make it complicated by drawing in all the other factors, when i only asked about AW level impact

You can ask about AW only as long as you want, the answer is your AW impact depends on those other factors, how often do you need to get the same answer?

 

[DeletedUser]

Maybe it helps you more planning forward instead f nbackward? Create your "perfect city" and see where that puts you?
What chapter is it in? How many expansions do you want? Which AWs do you want ant which level?

And then look at how that city behaves when you change around parameters.

Also decide what tourney scores you want every week (that is by far the most important factor), If all you want is 2000 or 3000 points, you can simply forget all this. It has little importance, as you keep saying yourself and you are right. If you want 10k every week it matters a lot.

As i wrote earlier; It depends on what i can produce of troops where i still feel it's fun playing the game. So if it's 5000, then it's that. Is it more - is it less. Then it's that.

 

[DeletedUser]

You can ask about AW only as long as you want, the answer is your AW impact depends on those other factors, how often do you need to get the same answer?

You're still not reading what i write; I'm fine where i am with chapter, research and expansions. Then there is AW - levels left that will influence the numbers.

And as you can see from the above spread, up till province 30, it's not that much which happens adding 15 more AW levels. And i don't even need 30 provinces to get 5000, if that will be the number.

So back to upgrading it all to where i want it

 

[Laurelin]

To reinforce what @Pauly7 said, some “progress” has immediately obvious penalties that doesn’t require anything more than simply playing the game to notice. Try comparing spire encounter difficulty before and after your enter chapter 5. The one tech is a very noticeable degradation in spire performance.

@Wibbly Woo : While I don't know your in-game progress, so you may know this already, there is an even more noticeable sudden increase in Spire difficulty when moving from Chapter VII (Fairies) into Chapter VIII (Orcs & Goblins), because at that point all of the Enemy Troops in the Spire appear at 3* level (i.e. debuff-capable). My own Unit losses approximately doubled due to that one significant change - especially because in Chapter VIII, and playing as Elf (Humans at least have Priests from the start, which are much superior to Elves' Sorceresses), I had only a couple of useful 3* Troop types of my own, with the most efficient types not achieving 3* status until Chapter 15 (i.e. Blossom Mages, Forest Rangers, and Frogs/Orc Strategists).

ETA : @Elivar : Following from the above, a thought occurs. I assume that you're not basing your views in this thread (and others) solely upon the numerical increase in Squad Sizes which results from increasing some/any/all of the parameters within the Squad Size Formula, which MinMax's calculator will of course show you, but that you're also taking into account something which (IIRC?) the calculator doesn't show, i.e. the very important - even decisive, in many cases - differences between 1*, 2*, and 3* Enemy [and player] Troop types?

You may well know this already, but just for the record: in the Tournament, Provinces 1-5 feature only 1* Enemy Units (trivial difficulty; can be defeated even with completely 'wrong' player Units according to the Combat Pentagram), Provinces 6-10 have only 2* Enemy Units (higher HP and damage levels, but still, should be easy enough to defeat with at least 'mostly correct' Combat Pentragram Units), and Provinces 11+ have all-3* Enemy Units (same HP and damage as 2*, but far more dangerous due to having Debuff and Damage Reduction capabilities, or both: it's quite possible to be defeated by these Enemy Units, especially when their Squad Sizes become very large, or at least to take heavy losses, even when choosing the 'ideal' opponents via the Combat Pentagram - and fighting manually. And some 3* Enemy types are worse than others, e.g. Mistwalkers and Steinlings).

So, if you habitually play only the first 10 Provinces (no matter how many Rounds - the Enemy Troop types remain the same per Province level), you may - perhaps? I don't know, of course! - be considering the increase in Squad Sizes due to adding AW levels (or changing any other of the Squad Size Formula parameters) without also taking into account how much of a difference the jump from 2* to 3* makes, when it comes to Enemy Troop strength. And my apologies if you've been taking this into account all along - I just wondered, since (as you'll see from the above comment I've made re Spire Troop types changing to 3* in Chapter VIII), it's not only the Squad Size which matters; the Unit types within those Squads is also an important factor.

 

[Lady Croft]

I'd like to get some artefacts full stop. My Fire Phoenix has got to level 5 and my Stone Henge level 2. Now the Mermaid is out and I'll probably be lucky to get 1 artefact for that before they pull those, too. So, do I bother placing these space fillers if I'm not going to be able to evolve them and have them at their full potential? Is there a way they can put the artefacts in but you choose? I guess not... And if you win the artefact slot but don't want any, that won't suit players, either. They'll become as popular as spell frags....

 

[rock stream]

Fire Phoenix at any level is nice. As for the other resurrections, they are all click bait for the purchase of diamonds. It would take longer to get them to a meaningful level than brewing a decent bottle of scotch. So why bother? Leave the past in the past

 

[Pauly7]

So, do I bother placing these space fillers if I'm not going to be able to evolve them and have them at their full potential?

I would say no, on the whole, unless you can get them to a point you'd be able to evolve them to at least level 9.

 

[sgjennings]

That is because extra troops don´t make it easier (only cheaper), so if more troops from FA/Simia is fewer than the costs in more troops from extra AW levels in the tourney, even those AWs become negative, but I wonder how high you have to go in the tourney to reach that point.

On the other hand all AWs that actually make the tourney easier rather than cheaper will be more benficial the higher you go. The MM is of course the perfect example because it works in every single fight. DA, Needles and Toads only work when you use the respective units, but I think if you average over the whole tourney cycle they will be just as useful as the MM. In theory even Heroes Forge and Victory Springs would be in the same category, but since they boost units one never uses they become also useless again.
And don´t forget the Timewarp, another guarantee benefit as soon as you reach the point where you can play 2 tourneys on the 5-day-boosters.

So in my eyes you have 5 AWs with a guarantee to be useful, plus FA and Simia that will be even more useful than the other 5 AWs for 99.9% of people, while worse for people at the end of the tech tree with all premium expansions bought and still doing a 20k tourney average (or something like that)...

Then of course there is the option to buy ELR and MMM with diamonds, so if you are a heavy diamond spender you don´t need Needles and DA.

But for most intents and purposes I think the 7 AWs are safe to max out for anyone.

Does Needles of the Tempest only boost the fighting power of some troops? Which ones? Thanks.

 

[Pauly7]

Does Needles of the Tempest only boost the fighting power of some troops? Which ones? Thanks.

Yes. Light ranged troops.

 

[Twigjam]

I doubt it is meant to "help" anyone.
Inno apparently wanted to get rid of the Moonstone set rather than fixing it (sounds familiar?) and then they were stuck with the problem what else to put in there as rewards. it had to be something "big" but you can´t exactly hand out Firebird artifacts forever, so they came up with the rotation of artifacts. What else could they have put in there really?

I recently acquired the Moonstone set from my MA and it took a lot of effort, i.e. Not being able to craft supplies and coin instants, time boosters etc so daily life in my city was generally harder for weeks, and saving up for all the buildings took a long time. Why does it need to be 'fixed'? What's wrong with it please?

 

[Pauly7]

Why does it need to be 'fixed'? What's wrong with it please?

It would always create some kind of goods imbalance because it always gives everyone scrolls. Worse though, is not how it is given out now, but that there are still thousands of players that have multiple Library sets. Just because they can't make more doesn't take away the ones they already have. There are some people that have in the vicinity of 15 full sets in their cities.

 

[Gargon667]

I recently acquired the Moonstone set from my MA and it took a lot of effort, i.e. Not being able to craft supplies and coin instants, time boosters etc so daily life in my city was generally harder for weeks, and saving up for all the buildings took a long time. Why does it need to be 'fixed'? What's wrong with it please?

Nothing wrong, its just a very powerful building with the flaw of giving scrolls to everybody, which makes trading for scroll boosted players tough.

It would always create some kind of goods imbalance because it always gives everyone scrolls. Worse though, is not how it is given out now, but that there are still thousands of players that have multiple Library sets. Just because they can't make more doesn't take away the ones they already have. There are some people that have in the vicinity of 15 full sets in their cities.

13 here, but far from top in that discipline in my FS ANd sure as heck not ever getting rid of a single one of them...

 

[Twigjam]

It would always create some kind of goods imbalance because it always gives everyone scrolls. Worse though, is not how it is given out now, but that there are still thousands of players that have multiple Library sets. Just because they can't make more doesn't take away the ones they already have. There are some people that have in the vicinity of 15 full sets in their cities.

Thanks. You said they can't make more. Does that mean they're not going to be in the MA again?