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Optimizing Fellowship Adventure

Sir Derf

Adept
So, what can/does it take to complete all maps on all 3 Maps?

Let's start with a plain vanilla analysis - no pre-production.

6 days, 6 hours, or total 150 hours, to make the following:


BadgeTotalminimum rounded up
Brewer3810 sets * 5 minutes1,900 set-minutes<1 set for 150 hours
Treant147 sets * 15 minutes1,470 set-minutes<1 set for 150 hours
Baker474 sets * 1 hour188 set-hours2 sets for 150 hours
Carpenter892 sets * 3 hours534 set-hours4 sets for 150 hours
Farmer261 set * 9 hour234 set-hours2 sets for 150 hours
Blacksmith1151 set * 24 hours115 set-days20 sets for 6 days
Flacon1261 set * 3 hours378 set-hours3 sets for 150 hours
Bracelet1101 set * 9 hours990 set-hours7 sets for 150 hours
Necklace881 set * 24 hours88 set-days15 sets for 6 days
Statue511 set * 48 hours102 set-days17 sets for 6 days

A Fellowship could complete all three Maps with a total of 1+2+4+2+20=29 sets of Workshops and 3+7+15+17=42 sets of Manufactories. That's 145 Workshops and 42 each of Marble, Steel and Planks.

Looking at the sub-day productions...

We've got a problem with being maximally efficient with overnight production of Workshops. We should need only 9 sets of Workshops, but we only need 26 Farmers, which under-utilizes our Workshops. Three overnights gives us all the Farmers we need, and running those 9 for 3 nights on Carpenters loses us 9*3*6=162 set-hours. Well, after considering the production of 13.5 Carpenter Badges, that leaves

BadgeTotalminimum rounded up
Brewer3810 sets * 5 minutes1,900 set-minutes1 set for 32 hours
Treant147 sets * 15 minutes1,470 set-minutes1 set for 25 hours
Baker474 sets * 1 hour188 set-hours2 sets for 96 hours
Carpenter140.52 sets * 3 hours843 set-hours9 sets for 96 hours

That's 11 sets of Workshops, not the 9 we thought we needed.

10 sets of Manus working overnight for 6 nights produce 60 Bracelets. For the reaming 96 hours, that leaves

BadgeTotalminimum rounded up
Flacon1261 set * 3 hours378 set-hours4 sets for 96 hours
Bracelet501 set * 9 hours450 set-hours5 sets for 90 hours


So, in total, for a minimum clearance of all three Maps and no pre-production, a Fellowship need only:

31 sets, 155 Workshops and 42 sets, 42 each Marble, Steel and Planks Manufactories. 20 WS sets dedicated to Blacksmiths, 17 Manu sets dedicated to Necklaces and 15 Manu sets dedicated to Statues. The remaining 11 sets of Workshops should run 6 Farmers and 6 Carpenters overnight, and during the day, 1 should [Edit-hourly] alternate Brewers and Treants, 2 for Bakers and 9 for Carpenters. The remaining 10 sets of Manus should run Bracelets overnight and a ratio of 4:5 Flacon:Bracelet during the day.

Roughly speaking, that's a little more than 1 set of Workshops and a little less than 2 sets of Manus per fellow.
 
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Sir Derf

Adept
Minimum path clearance, Elven Shantytown production only, no pre-production...

31 sets of Workshops at 25 squares/set = 775 squares of Workshops.
42 sets of Manuscripts at 10 squares/set = 420 squares of Manus.

775+420=1,195 squares, 48 provinces expansions of Elven Shantytown.

I guess someone with a lo-o-o-o-o-t of empty space could operate as a Fellowship of 1 and clear all three Maps.

Edit - minutes after posting, I realized that a singleton might have difficulty managing the Spell and Other badges on their own... It is a stretch goal...
 
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Sir Derf

Adept
I just realized that my attempts above to have a little bit of realism in my production suggestions, with assuming overnight and daytime productions, that I was projecting performing 9-hour productions evenly across 15-hour daytime periods. The spirit still holds, even if the letter fails.

Like with pirates, this thread is meant more as what you would call a guideline, not a rule.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

Let's assume a fellowship of 25 members, 13 Elves and 12 Humans. Every fellow has 1 set of Powerhouse Workshops and 1 set of Powerhouse Manus, but they are only willing to use them in their usual 3-3-3-3-3-9 rates. They will pre-produce, and their goal is to clear all the points-efficient Waypoints on all 3 maps.

First, let's deal with the Powerhouses. 25 Powerhouses WS and Manu * (pre-preproduction + 6 nights) = 175 each of Farmers and Bracelets. That leaves 96 hours, or 32 3-hour production rounds, for 400 Carpenters and 400 Flacons, massive overkill, but that's the ground rules I choose.


Take that off the top, and that leaves a production goal of

BadgeTotalminimum rounded up
Brewer6810 sets * 5 minutes3,400 set-minutes<1 set for 150 hours
Treant427 sets * 15 minutes4,410 set-minutes<1 set for 150 hours
Baker674 sets * 1 hour268 set-hours2 sets for 150 hours
Farmer731 set * 9 hour657 set-hours5 sets for 150 hours
Blacksmith2611 set * 24 hours261 set-days38 sets for 7 days
Bracelet721 set * 9 hours648 set-hours5 sets for 150 hours
Necklace1221 set * 24 hours122 set-days18 sets for 7 days
Statue891 set * 48 hours178 set-days26 sets for 7 days

Using that a starting point, we end up with


BadgeGoalPre-buildregular buildfinal production
Brewer681 set for 57 hours68
Treant421 set for 74 hours42
Baker672 sets for 150 hours75
Farmer735 sets for 150 hours83
Blacksmith26137+8 = 45 sets37 sets for 6 days267
Bracelet725 sets for 150 hours83
Necklace12221 sets for 6 days126
Statue8916+26 = 42 sets16 sets for 6 days90


25 Powerhouse sets + 45 sets (225 Workshops)
25 Powerhouse sets + 42 sets (42 each Marble, Steel, Planks)

For each Elven fellow, that's 3+ sets of Manus, 30+ Squares, and 1 set of Workshops, 25 squares, for a total of 55+ squares, or just over 2 Expansions per Elf. For each Human Fellow, that's 3- sets of Workshops, 75- squares, or just about 3 provinces per Human.

That's am inefficient improvement of 24 fewer Workshops sets and 9 fewer Manufactory sets.
 
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Sir Derf

Adept
Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

But Sir Derf, you say, if I spend all the Fellowship Adventure simply doing the Maps efficiently, that only gets 23,100 points, which only gets me 37th place in the last FA. What about the Endless Pit? I want to crush it. Top 5 last FA was about 50,000 points. First place was over 100.000. What do you have to say to that, Sir Derf?

Right then.

You're a Fellowship of 25, 13 Elves and 12 Humans. Every member has 2 sets of Powerhouse Workshops and 2 sets of Powerhouse Manufactories, and is willing to use them fully for the FA. Every member has, hmmm, let's say 6 free provinces, 150 squares. That doesn't sound too unbelievable.

Pre-production.

We have 50 Powerhouse sets of Manus, and could use them for Statues. But, we have 13 Elves with 150 squares of temps to work with, which means a potential total of 195 sets of temp Elf Manus. We only need 89 Statues, and so can do them all with temps, allowing our Fellows to get the better goods output from their Powerhouses. That leaves 106 temp Manus and 50 Powerhouse Manus to premake 156 Necklaces.

We have 50 Powerhouse sets of Workshops and we have 12 Humans with 150 squares of temps to work with, which means a potential set of 72 sets of temp Human WSs. We'll set all 122 sets to pre-building Blacksmiths.

So, after the pre-build, we have 122 Blacksmiths, 156 Necklaces and 89 Statues. To complete the 3 Maps for points leaves

BadgeTotal
Brewer683,400 set-minutes
Treant424,410 set-minutes
Baker67268 set-hours
Carpenter154924 set-hours
Farmer2482,232 set-hours
Blacksmith1393.336 set-hours
Flacon220660 set-hours
Bracelet2472,223 set-hours
Necklace0 (34 extra)

This totals 3,592 set-hours of Workshops and 2,883 set-hours of Manus. With our original all-Human Workshop and All-Elf Manu assignment, we have 122 sets of Workshops and 245 sets of Manus. To speed-run finishing our Maps, we're looking for an almost 1.25:1 ratio of Workshop sets to Manu sets, and we've currently have about 05:1. We need to dial back our Elven temp Manus.

Of our 195 temp Elf Manus, we shall convert 115 of those sets, using 1150 squares, for 46 sets of Workshops. This gives us 168 sets of Workshops and 130 sets of Manus, for a 1.29:1 ratio.

3,592 set-hours of Workshops produced using 168 sets of Workshops will take 21.38 hours. 2,883 set-hours of Manus produced using 130 sets of Manus will take 22.17 hours. Let's call this 22 hours between friends.

We blitzed all three Maps for maximum efficiency points in under a day, with 34 Necklaces ready for the pit.

Now we're into the pit.

The triple pit pit-set wants 4*(Brewer+Treant+Baker+Carpenter+Farmer+Blacksmith) + 4*(Flacon+Bracelet+Necklace) and gives 150 points. That's 4*(0.833 + 1.75 + 4 + 6 + 9 + 24) = 182.33 Workshop set-hours and 4*(3 + 9 + 24) = 144 Manu set-hours.

Okay, we've got 34 Necklaces already made. We need to make 36 each of WS badges, 36 Flacons, 36 Bracelets and 2 Necklaces to do 9 pit sets for 1,350 points. That's 9 *182.33 = 1,641 Workshop set-hours and 36*3 + 36*9 + 2*24 = 480 Manu set-hours, for a ratio of 3.42:1. We'll convert
75 of our remaining 80 Elf Manu sets for 30 more Elf Workshop sets, giving us 198 sets of Workshops and 55 sets of Manus, for a 3.6:1 ratio.

1,641 set-hours of Workshops produced using 198 sets of Workshops will take 8.3 hours. 480 set-hours of Manus produced using 55 sets of Manus will take 8.7 hours. Let's call that 9 hours between friends.

Pit-sets are efficently made with a 182.33:144 = 1.27 ratio. So we convert back 30 Elf Workshop sets for 75 Elf Manu sets, and return to 168 sets of Workshops and 130 sets of Manufactories.

We now have 150-22-9 = 119 hours of FA left. 119 hours of 168 WS sets = 19,992 WS set-hours, and 119 hours of 130 Manu sets = 15,470 Manu set-hours. 19,992 WS Set hours give 109 pit-sets worth of WS badges. 15,470 Manu set-hours give 107 pit-sets worth of Manu badges. That's 107 more pit-rounds.

So, we managed to points-efficiently clear all three maps, and then complete 9+107=116 rounds of the pit. That's 23,100 points for the Maps plus 116*150 = 17,400 points from the pit, for a grand total of 40,500 points, which in the last FA would have gotten you 8th place.

Are you not entertained?
 
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Pauly7

Magus
Hi @Sir Derf. Interesting as I find in-depth computations, something nags at me with all this. What it is, I think, is that if you have a fellowship of 25 players who all wish to play the FA and all have enough of a desire to follow detailed guidelines of what to produce when, then I would say there probably isn't too much of a use in getting to know the most efficient single routes to get over the finish line. If there are 25 people all committed to the FA cause then that FS is probably going to commit to clearing all waypoints anyway.

In my Fellowship, we tend to have only about 20 people who play at all, and of those maybe around 15 are playing with a good deal of commitment to it... Yet at our best attempt were able to clear all waypoints and complete 350 cycles of the pit. I'm not playing us down - we have some awesome FA players and have some great fun and it's admirable the way these guys can come together and do well. All I'm saying is that for fellowships that choose an efficient path, the impediment to doing better does not lie in the maths - it lies in enthusiasm, desire to play it, communication, etc.

The time for your maths to shine is when the group is beyond clearing all waypoints and is now fine-tuning performance to climb up the leaderboard... So the latter parts of your analysis is where it gets interesting. :)
 

Sir Derf

Adept
@Pauly7 reply, part 1 of 2.

There are many different fellowships out there, with different levels of participation and different levels of aspirations. While I appreciate your desire from your perspective, I respectfully suggest that other fellowships out there, coming from different situations, find other aspects of my full treatise more interesting, and the subtlties of deep pit analysis to be not just over their heads, but out of reach.

While there are many different desires for many different purposes, I think that there are only 4 that make logical sense, that have real purpose, because there are only four tiers of rewards; attaining Chests 1, 2 or 3, and after that, getting the highest score you can. Fellowships that are smaller, or of earlier cities, or with space limitations, or with limited participation, they would only be concerned with dealing with the Maps as best they can. I felt that my analysis, the way I did it, would benefit for each stage, and build up to the big finish.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

@Pauly7 reply, part 2 of 2

Why skip those 10 waypoints (M1G8, M2G8, M3B7, M3B8, M3G1, M3G3, M3G4, M3G6, M3G7 and M3G8)? Because, if you want to, as my goal stated, be as efficient as possible, then you need to be as efficient as possible. If you're attitude is "I don't care about the small change", then your attitude is expressly in opposition with the whole point of my stated goals, which is to pinch every penny, to continue the coin-based metaphor.

What do you need to do to finish those 10 extra waypoints?

Points2700
Brewer4410 sets * 5 minutes36.66 set-hours
Treant167 set * 15 minutes28 set-hours
Baker0
Carpenter782 sets * 3 hours468 set-hours
Farmer961 set * 9 hour864 set-hours
Blacksmith1591 set * 24 hour3,816 set-hours
Flacon0
Bracelet681 set * 9 hour612 set-hours
Necklace661 set * 24 hour1,584 set-hours
Statue251 set * 48 hour1,200 set-hours

That's a total of 5,212.66 Workshop set-hours and 3,396 Manufactory set-hours, for a gain of 2,700 points.

2,700 points is equivalent to 18 pit-sets requires only 3,282 Workshop set-hours and 2,592 Manu set-hours.

You inefficiently wasted 1,930 Workshop set-hours and 804 Manu set-hours, which could have been used for 6-7 more pit-sets, call it 20 extra pits, or another 1,000 points.


Incidentally, I realized that I might have made a mistake in my progression from "What is the most efficient route on each map" to "What is the most efficient total number of Waypoints to collect on each map (that includes a finished path)". It is possible that there are one or more inefficient individual waypoints included in my minimum paths that should be left out in the fuller map coverage that the next stage.
 
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Sir Derf

Adept
But Sir Derf, I want to be the very best, like no one ever was. To win chests is my real test, to feed the pit is my cause!

On my world of Felyndral, the last FA top Fellowship scored 112,500 points. How can I do that?

Well, 112,500 - 23,100 = 89,400 points, or 596 pit-sets.

596 pit-rounds requires 108,670 Workshop set-hours and 85,824 Manu set-hours. With the massive production you have available, let's guess you have 135 out of the 150 hours to work on pit production. That would use 804 Workshop sets and 635 Manu sets. (As a check, 804*15 hours = 12,060 WS set-hours and 635*15 hours = 9,525 Manu set-hours, which is more than enough to efficiently complete all 3 Maps without pre-building)
 

Sir Derf

Adept
I started looking into the reanalysis of if there was a more efficient maximum clearing of Maps, and I need to look into this more. My tools seem to suggest there are some issues with my plan for Map 3, but this also suggests that I have made a mistake in my minimum-path analysis for Map 3 as well, and I'm not convinced that that is true. I need to look deeper into the spreadsheet tool I'm using to determine if I can trust what it seems to be telling me.

I know that you're all going to be holding your breath until I give you the update. Bear with me... After all this data dump, I don't want to be spreading fake news.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Okay, existential crisis averted. The minimum path worked on Map 3 stands, because that was predicated on finding the path to the top in terms of production costs, which is independent of points, while the most efficient coverage of the whole map is predicated in terms of production costs relative to points. There's still some mistakes to my list of points for a maximally-efficient Map 3 coverage.

The previously included points M3O1 and M3O7 are inefficient points and should be skipped if possible.

M3O1 is easy to dismiss, as we were picking up M3B1, and so have an alternate route path that completes Map 1.

M3O7 is trickier, as our current plan does not include a an alternate route to complete Map 3, and so we need to consider the other two routes and see if they now are more desired. M3O7 and M3O8 together have an efficiency of 61.667. The first alternative M3B7 and M3B8 (because we were already picking up M3B6), has an efficiency of 90.618, and so is worse. The second alternative M3G6, M3G7 and M3G8 has an efficiency of 39.167, which is much better, just barely above pit-efficiency. So, we should avoid M3O7 and M3O8 and instead include M3G7, M3G7 and M3G8 when our goal is maximum-efficiency clearing of Map 3.

That makes the correct collective maximally-efficient-to-clear-all-maps summation to be:

In summation, between the minimum cost paths to finish the maps, and the extra Waypoints that are worth it after those Waypoints, you should be planning to earn 24+24+17=65 Waypoints, and not collect 1+1+8=10 Waypoints.

It's probably easier to list the Waypoints you don't want to collect: M1G8, M2G8, M3O1, M3O7, M3O8, M3B7 M3B8, M3G1, M3G3 and M3G4.

Map 1Map 2Map 3 NewTotal NewChange
Brewer14351968
Treant4191942
Baker1325038-29
Carpenter2051123194+40
Farmer1251225 288-40
Blacksmith1541130186-75
Flacon355189175-45
Bracelet2677124227-20
Necklace022150172+50
Statue03876114+25
Wand18135990+40
Potion183859115+40
Hat9136688+21
Wonder36140180356-90
Guard9256599
Sack3589250374+25

Map 1Map 2Map 3TotalChange
Points420084001050023100
Supplies16466.6747785.42148302.08212554.17-32900
Goods3390228606807094320+14850
(Statues)03851114+25
Spells456483293+101
Wonder36140270356+90
Guard9256599
Sack3589225374+25

A Total Total, 306,874.17 square-hours, a savings of 18,050, or 5.5%.

This has ramifications to many of my other above analysis. I will edit those posts to indicate that there are slight differences, but unless someone asks for it, I don't think I'll edit or repost the above with the reworked numbers.



I'm disappointed in you all. Bad peer-reviewers. Bad. Bad. ;)
 

Sir Derf

Adept
So, you've seen my work. As Watson to my Sherlock, I hope I have taught you my methods. I think this has exorcised the math demons in my head, and so barring feedback that pokes the beasts again, I don't think I need to post any more scenarios.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
For Fellowships trying to achieve the first Chest, your path should be Orange-Orange-Blue, or the 9 Waypoints, M1O1-M1O5 and M1B5-M1B8. This requires

Brewer6
Treant2
Baker5
Carpenter5
Farmer0
Blacksmith0
Flacon25
Bracelet9
Necklace0
Statue0
Wand9
Potion14
Hat5
Wonder22
Guard5
Sack15

Very little advice needed, as a dedicated player with even a single Workshop or a single set of Manus can easily generate one of the above badge collections on their own over the course of the FA.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
For Fellowships trying to achieve the first and second Chests, your path should be Orange-Orange-Blue followed by Blue-Blue-Blue, or the 17 Waypoints, M1O1-M1O5, M1B5-M1B8 and M2B1-M2B8. This requires

Brewer19
Treant14
Baker18
Carpenter31
Farmer26
Blacksmith0
Flacon51
Bracelet35
Necklace13
Statue13
Wand22
Potion27
Hat18
Wonder60
Guard5
Sack41

Here, a little advice is warranted.

Where possible, pre-make as many of the 13 Statues​
and then if possible pre-make as many of the 13 Necklaces​
Pre-make as much as you can towards the 26 Farmers​
Once the Fellowship starts, look at concentrating temp Manufacturing sets in Elves over Humans​
 

Sir Derf

Adept
For Fellowships trying to achieve the all three Chests, your path should be Orange-Orange-Blue followed by Blue-Blue-Blue then Orange-Orange-Orange, or the 25 Waypoints, M1O1-M1O5, M1B5-M1B8, M2B1-M2B8 and M3O1-M3O8. This requires

Brewer38
Treant14
Baker47
Carpenter89
Farmer26
Blacksmith115
Flacon126
Bracelet110
Necklace88
Statue51
Wand41
Potion46
Hat37
Wonder195
Guard70
Sack176

Again, some advice is warranted.

Where possible, pre-make as many of the 51 Statues​
and then if possible pre-make as many of the 88 Necklaces​
Pre-make as much as you can towards the 115 Blacksmith​
Once the Fellowship starts, look at concentrating temp Manufacturing sets in Elves over Humans​
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Lastly, for those who have massive production capability and want to score the highest number of points, you want do a total of 65 Waypoints, all but G8 on Map 1, all but G8 on Map 2, and all but O1, O7, O8, B7, B8, G1, G3 and G4 on Map 3. This requires


Brewer68
Treant42
Baker38
Carpenter194
Farmer288
Blacksmith186
Flacon175
Bracelet227
Necklace172
Statue114
Wand90
Potion115
Hat88
Wonder356
Guard99
Sack374

My advice:

You need to make 114, and only 114, Statues. The pit does not use Statues.​
Pre-build as many of the Statues as you can.​
Use your Powerhouses (if pre-Elementals), Elf and Human, to pre-build Statues.​
Use Elf temp Manus to pre-build Statues.​
If you still have Elf temp Manus, pre-build Necklaces.​
Otherwise, use Human temp Manus to pre-build Statues.​
Use post-Elemental Powerhouses to pre-make Bracelets.​
Pre-make as many Blacksmiths as you can.​
Use your Powerhouses, Human and Elf, to pre-build Blacksmiths.​
Use Human temp WS to pre-build Blacksmiths.​
If you still have Human temp WS (I can't believe you can, considering the pit uses Blacksmiths) pre-build Farmers.​
Prioritize temp Manus for Elves and temp WS for Humans, but adjust as necessary depending on the number of each in your Fellowship and the amount of free space they can devote to temp buildings.​
It's probably easiest to assign a Human Fellow or two with both huge numbers of WS and long periods of time where they can continually focus on the game to mass produce Brewers and Treants. Depending on how deep you go, this could easily represent hours and hours of 5 or 15 minute visits. I'm not saying to find someone with no life, but...​
You need a lot of everything. If you're really dedicated to maximum output, you'll communicate frequently about current inventory, current production and future commitments. Monitor your production balances and shift as necessary.​

I don't think I can offer any better advice than that. Exactly what balance to strike, how many long-term badges to make before you need them, is dependent on your available resource and how you use them.
 
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BlueBlou

Illusionist
Quite a bit of thought you have put into all this, Sir Derf. Thanks for that. Must admit, I am a bad, bad, bad peer reviewer as I am not going to check your calcs. For me it is about the best management of time. Another angle you can perhaps explore is how best to use a certain number of workshops and t1 sets, say 50 workshops and 6 t1 sets, to produce about the same number of the different badges.

You need a lot of everything. If you're really dedicated to maximum output, you'll communicate frequently about current inventory, current production and future commitments. Monitor your production balances and shift as necessary.​
Very true words.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
So, I asked for and received permission to transcribe the meat of this thread into a new thread in the "Player Guides and Strategy" section of the forum. Hopefully, I can do this into a cleaner version with fewer mistakes.

This will probably start in a day or two, and I'll take several days to do it.

I'll probably give a little more generic description, describe the analysis process in general, and do the correct work on the current, what is it, Type E2? repeated Fellowship style.

I'll probably also try to include some screen grabs.

I also think that I will hide some of the internal geekery inside spoiler fields, so that the thread doesn't initially look too threatening, but while still being able to deliver the deep nuts and bolts.

Thinking about it, I'll probably reserve a couple of the early posts in the thread for a TL;DR summation without having to read through all the thread.


If people have suggestions for the final content, speak up here.
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
Remember that some people are colour blind and may get confused with which one is the green line for example. Perhaps better to speak of left, middle and right lanes.
 
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