Optimizing Fellowship Adventure

[Sir Derf]

Extra Waypoints, Map 1.

After completing the path Orange-Orange-Blue, which uses 10 Waypoints, there are 15 additional points. They are:

Waypoint	Points	Square-hours	sh/p	Collect?
Orange 6	100	720	7.2	Yes
Orange 7	100	450	4.5	Yes
Orange 8	100	1110	11.1	Yes
Blue 1	100	390	3.9	Yes
Blue 2 (Crossover)	300	450	1.5	Yes
Blue 3	100	200.83	2.01	Yes
Blue 4	100	550	5.5	Yes
Green 1	100	743.75	7.44	Yes
Green 2 (Crossover)	300	1260	4.2	Yes
Green 3	100	1906.25	19.06	Yes
Green 4	100	2100	21	Yes
Green 5 (Crossover)	500	3300	6.6	Yes
Green 6	100	353.33	3.53	Yes
Green 7	100	3300	33	Yes
Green 8	100	4020	40.2	No

With 1 exception, every Waypoint is worth collecting when considered on its own. Only Green 8 fails the individual test, and since there are no Waypoints behind it, it can't be rescued by forming a group.

 

[Sir Derf]

Extra Waypoints, Map 2.

After completing the path Blue-Blue-Blue, which uses 9 Waypoints, there are 16 additional points. They are:

Waypoint	Points	Square-hours	sh/p	Collect?
Orange 1	200	731.25	3.66	Yes
Orange 2 (Crossover)	600	5910	9.85	Yes
Orange 3	200	425	2.13	Yes
Orange 4	200	5575	27.88	Yes
Orange 5 (Crossover)	1000	3510	3.51	Yes
Orange 6	200	180	0.9	Yes
Orange 7	200	6958.33	34.79	Yes
Orange 8	200	3915	19.58	Yes
Green 1	200	900	4.5	Yes
Green 2 (Crossover)	600	4410	7.35	Yes
Green 3	200	2225	11.13	Yes
Green 4	200	900	4.5	Yes
Green 5 (Crossover)	1000	4800	4.8	Yes
Green 6	200	5400	27	Yes
Green 7	200	3600	18	Yes
Green 8	200	11790	58.95	No

As with Map 1, on Map 2.with 1 exception, every Waypoint is worth collecting when considered on its own. Only Green 8 again fails the individual test, and since there are no Waypoints behind it, it can't be rescued by forming a group.

 

[Sir Derf]

Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

Extra Waypoints, Map 3.

After completing the path Orange-Orange-Orange, which uses 9 Waypoints, there are 16 additional points. They are:

Waypoint	Points	Square-hours	sh/p	Collect?
Blue 1	300	5625	18.75	Yes
Blue 2 (Crossover)	900	33000	36.67	Yes
Blue 3	300	5151.25	17.17	Yes
Blue 4	300	0	----	Yes
Blue 5 (Crossover)	1500	31710	21.14	Yes
Blue 6	300	10200	34	Yes
Blue 7	300	39000	130	Maybe? No
Blue 8	300	15370.83	51.24	Maybe? No
Green 1	300	24000	80	No
Green 2 (Crossover)	900	17250	19.17	Yes
Green 3	300	28145.83	93.82	Maybe? No
Green 4	300	700	2.33	(Yes) No
Green 5 (Crossover)	1500	14370	9.58	Yes
Green 6	300	18000	60	Maybe? No
Green 7	300	9000	30	(Yes) No
Green 8	300	8250	27.5	(Yes) No

Map 3 is a little trickier.

Blue 7 fails on its own, so we look to see if it can be grouped successfully. Blue 7 + Blue 8 want 54,370.83 square-hours, and give 600 points, for 90.62 sh/p, and it still fails. Blue 7 and Blue 8 are not worth collecting.

Green 1 fails on its own, and the next waypoint is accessible on its own, so there are no other waypoints to group with. Green 1 is not worth collecting.

Green 3 fails on its own, so we look to see if it can be grouped successfully. Green 3 + Green 4 want 28,845.83 square-hours, and give 600 points, for 48.08 sh/p, and it still fails. Green 3 and Green 4 are not worth collecting.

Green 6 fails on its own, so we look to see if it can be grouped successfully. Green 6 + Green 7 want 27,000 square-hours, and give 600 points, for 45 sh/p, and it still fails. Green 6 + Green 7 + Green 8 wants 35,250 square-hours, and gives 900 points, for 39.17 sh/p, and it still fails. Green 6, Green 7 and Green 8 are not worth collecting.

Map 3, Blue 1-6, Green 2 and Green 5 are worth collecting. Blue 7-8, Green 1, Green 3-4 and Green 6-8 are not worth collecting.

 

[Sir Derf]

Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

In summation, between the minimum cost paths to finish the maps, and the extra Waypoints that are worth it after those Waypoints, you should be planning to earn 24+24+17=65 Waypoints, and not collect 1+1+8=10 Waypoints.

It's probably easier to list the Waypoints you don't want to collect: M1G8, M2G8, M3B7, M3B8, M3G1, M3G3, M3G4, M3G6, M3G7 and M3G8.

	Map 1	Map 2	Map 3	Total
Brewer	14	35	19	68
Treant	4	19	19	42
Baker	13	25	29	67
Carpenter	20	51	83	154
Farmer	12	51	185	248
Blacksmith	15	41	205	261
Flacon	35	51	134	220
Bracelet	26	77	144	247
Necklace	0	22	100	122
Statue	0	38	51	89
Wand	18	13	19	50
Potion	18	38	19	75
Hat	9	13	45	67
Wonder	36	140	270	446
Guard	9	25	65	99
Sack	35	89	225	349

	Map 1	Map 2	Map 3	Total
Points	4200	8400	10500	23100
Supplies	16466.67	47785.42	181202.08	245454.17
Goods	3390	22860	53220	79470
(Statues)	0	38	51	89
Spells	45	64	83	192
Wonder	36	140	270	446
Guard	9	25	65	99
Sack	35	89	225	349

Edit - forgot to mention the Total Total, 324,924.17 square-hours.

 

[Sir Derf]

Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

So, that's the pre-pit plan.

You want 89 Statues, which are best entirely pre-built by Elves, second best pre-built by Humans, and if you can't arrange for that, then you want Elves to produce them mid-FA.

I need to give further thought about the Supplies and Goods needs, and the Pit needs, to talk about build ratios and building ratios.

I'll get back to you all later.

 

[kurgkurg]

I don't think your formulas take into account that badges are usually not produced 24/7. we are human and we spend our time as humans. It takes some time to pick up and put up badges, and the buffer-time ratio is not the same for different badges - for blacksmiths its almost 0, but markable for breweries.
If you're already doing such an analysis, consider that too

And I may not have read everything so thoroughly, but did you ever figure out the balance between different badges and between ws/t1 sets for the pit. which should be the ratio of your various badges stocks in the going on the pit, so that in the end the pit don't run into imbalance? let's say if you need to spend 5 days in the pit, it's most important

 

[Sir Derf]

@kurgkurg going in reverse, the immediately preceding post indicated that I had not yet looked at pit operation, building ratios, badge production ratios. I'm only Human (well, I play an Elf), and can only calculate and cogitate so fast. I just left the Constructs chapter yesterday, so I don't have access to them for help anymore, either.

Yes, my thoughts are based on ideal play, without taking into account such trivial notions as clicking-finger speed, mouse travel time, delays in picking up items and badges, time wasted chatting/coordinating with other Fellows, or even sleep (who needs that when there is a FA to be played)

Just off the top of my head, I don't think most practical reasons will have a large impact on whether or not these thoughts remain the ideal. Someone who commits to making Beverages should be doing so with the reasonable expectation that they will be be back to pick them up close to 5 minutes later, after all.

 

[Pauly7]

delays in picking up items and badges

This would be well worth you factoring in at some point. It becomes a bigger consideration at higher levels. For instance, in the previous FA I was working with 300 workshops. The maths would suggest I should pick up 72 brewery badges an hour, but the reality is quite a long way different from that. If I kept my head in the game I could actually pick up around 60 badges an hour... and that doesn't even allow for making mistakes or taking breaks. Collecting 5 minute badges from this many workshops is literally a full time operation as you're collecting the next round as soon as you get through the first round.

Now if it's blacksmith badges that's 60 badges in a day, but there doesn't need to be very much relative slippage to this.

 

[Sir Derf]

Calm down folks....

One needs to work out the ideal before one can factor in the real world.

I'll point out that, at the moment, I've computed an optimal FIXED amount on the first 3 maps. It doesn't matter how fast or slow you are at getting there, that's your FIXED goal. I don't think I'm going to spend my time prioritizing what order to do those waypoints in. Although, now that I've mentioned it, the curiosity is starting to itch in the back of my brain...

Once you start thinking about the endless pit, the repetitious, over-and-over nature of it, its going to get a little finicky.

 

[Sir Derf]

Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

So, you need to make 89 Statues...

What does it take to make 89 Statues?

Well, it takes 89 trios of Manufactories. If done with Elven pre-building, that's 890 squares. That's 35+ provinces.

If you have a full 25-member Fellowship, and half of them are elves, that's 7-8 trios per Elf, 70-80 squares, about 3 provinces per Elf member.


Most players have existing powerhouse Manufactories, though. I think It's a fair assessment that most players have at least 2 Powerhouses of their boosted Basic, possibly with other coordinating large Manus. Every trio built around these, whether Elf or Human, is leveraging that free second day of prebuild. You'd be really, really well served if you could pre-build 50 (or more) Statues from Powerhouse trios, leaving 39 (or fewer) Statues to be pre-built by Elf Lvl1 trios. Pre-building 39 Lvl1 Statues across 13 Elves is only 3 per Elf, 30 squares, 1+ provinces.

 

[Sir Derf]

Open question - How long does a Fellowship Adventure usually last?

This one is running Oct 5 at 11 CEST to Oct 12 at 19 CEST, or 7 days 5 hours, or 173 hours, but this is with an extra day.

Is it a good approximation to say 6 days, 6 hours, for an even 150 hours?

(Plus the 1-2 days of extra time you can gain with pre-building, of course)

 

[Sir Derf]

Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

So, you've got your Statues taken care of. Where do you go next?

Well, removing Statues from the tally, 89 made using 1 day of pre-build (the other day is free, as you couldn't use it to do anything else for the FA), removes 89*10*24=21,360 square-hours from the target of 324.924.17 square-hours, that leaves 303,564.17 square-hours of production.

If you were to spend the entire FA accomplishing this and only this, that's 174 hours (including 1 day of prebuild), and means you would need 1,744.62 squares devoted to production. Across 25 Fellows, that's an average of 69.78 squares per person, or just under 3 provinces per Fellow.

But....

 

[Pauly7]

You'd be really, really well served if you could pre-build 50 (or more) Statues from Powerhouse trios

Are you taking into account that anyone with "powerhouse" manus beyond Elementals can't build statues with them at all?

Is it a good approximation to say 6 days, 6 hours, for an even 150 hours?

This has changed a bit from time to time. Quite commonly FAs used to start on a Monday morning then finish at about 1am (UK) on the next Monday morning, meaning it would be closer to 7 days. The last FA was about 6 days 7 hours, I think, and this one a day longer.

 

[Sir Derf]

Remember those Powerhouses?

Again, let's assume you have 2 existing Powerhouse trios per Fellow. We already assumed they were fully engaged in the pre-build of Statues, but you have them available for the rest of the FA. So, every fellow has the equivalent of 20 squares of Goods production already in existence and available for 150 hours of production.

Also, I think its fair to say that players have 5-10 Powerhouse Workshops. These are available for pre-building Blacksmiths, and for building anything from Brewers to Blacksmiths. Averaging to 7.5 Powerhouse Workshops, every fellow has the equivalent of 37.5 squares of Supplies production already in existence for 174 hours of production.

 

[Sir Derf]

Thank you, @Pauly7 , this is why I post as I go, with my thoughts, so that things like this would be corrected.

You are correct, it is unreasonable to assume every player would have Statue, or even Necklace, capable Powerhouses. I can't just write off 50 Statues from pre-built Powerhouses.

Every pre-Elemental player, Elf or Human, should pre-build Statues with their Powerhouses. Elemental and higher players should pre-Build Bracelets.

 

[C-Nymph]

Every pre-Elemental player, Elf or Human, should pre-build Statues with their Powerhouses. Elemental and higher players should pre-Build Bracelets.

Even if I still had pre-elemental powerhouses, I would never let them work on 48hour-productions unless I was on holiday. That is the least efficient production, especially for big powerhouse manu's. I'd only ever make statues on lvl 1 manu's.

 

[Sir Derf]

It all depends on your personal style of play, those four styles I mentioned earlier. If you value the actual quantity of supplies and goods you make during the limited time of the Fellowship Adventure over optimizing FA progression, than go ahead and keep the Powerhouses operating at 3s and 9s, producing Flacons and Bracelets as you go. But, if you're willing, it's slightly better for FA progression to, just once, use Powerhouse Manus to pre-build Statues, as you gain the extra 39 hours of production for those pre-built statues versus pre-building Bracelets. That's a savings of 10*39=390 square-hours for every one you do. I'm quibbling over saving 0.12% over the entire pre-pit plan, or 0.27% for the minimal path plan, but every little bit helps.

Especially when you consider that, the more Fellows in your Fellowship who have pre-Elemental powerhouses, the more that Fellowship can really use every little bit they can. A fellowship of 25 players each with 2 Powerhouse trios can gain a 13.5% advantage at attempting to clear all three maps if they do, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Sir Derf]

Edit - There is an error in assuming that the minimum-to-clear-Map-3 path was automatically part of the efficient-to-clear-Map-3 collection. See much later post.

So, spit-balling here...

What does it take to accomplish the above goals? How can you use this information and plan ahead? I don't think I'll end up with a fully realized spreadsheet, but I think I will go a little further in my musings.

So, what can/does it take to complete all maps efficiently maximize points on all 3 Maps?

Let's start with a plain vanilla analysis - no pre-production.

6 days, 6 hours, or total 150 hours, to make the following:

Badge	Total			minimum rounded up
Brewer	68	10 sets * 5 minutes	3,400 set-minutes	<1 set for 150 hours
Treant	42	7 sets * 15 minutes	4,410 set-minutes	<1 set for 150 hours
Baker	67	4 sets * 1 hour	268 set-hours	2 sets for 150 hours
Carpenter	154	2 sets * 3 hours	924 set-hours	7 sets for 150 hours
Farmer	248	1 set * 9 hour	2,232 set-hours	15 sets for 150 hours
Blacksmith	261	1 set * 24 hours	261 set-days	44 sets for 6 days
Flacon	220	1 set * 3 hours	660 set-hours	5 sets for 150 hours
Bracelet	247	1 set * 9 hours	2,223 set-hours	15 sets for 150 hours
Necklace	122	1 set * 24 hours	122 set-days	21 sets for 6 days
Statue	89	1 set * 48 hours	178 set-days	30 sets for 6 days

A Fellowship could complete efficiently maximize points on all three Maps with a total of 1+2+7+15+44=69 sets of Workshops and 5+15+21+30=71 sets of Manufactories. That's 345 Workshops and 71 each of Marble, Steel and Planks.

Looking at the sub-day productions...

25 sets of Workshops working overnight for 6 nights produce 150 Farmers. For the remaining 150-(6*9)=96 hours, that leaves

Badge	Total			minimum rounded up
Brewer	68	10 sets * 5 minutes	3,400 set-minutes	1 set for 57 hours
Treant	42	7 sets * 15 minutes	4,410 set-minutes	1 set for 74 hours
Baker	67	4 sets * 1 hour	268 set-hours	3 sets for 96 hours
Carpenter	154	2 sets * 3 hours	924 set-hours	10 sets for 96 hours
Farmer	98	1 set * 9 hour	882 set-hours	10 sets for 90 hours

20 sets of Manus working overnight for 6 nights produce 120 Bracelets. For the reaming 96 hours, that leaves

Badge	Total			minimum rounded up
Flacon	220	1 set * 3 hours	660 set-hours	7 sets for 96 hours
Bracelet	127	1 set * 9 hours	1,143 set-hours	13 sets for 90 hours

So, in total, for a minimum clearance efficiently maximizing of points of all three Maps and no pre-production, a Fellowship need only:

69 sets, 345 Workshops and 51 sets, 51 each Marble, Steel and Planks Manufactories. 44 WS sets dedicated to Blacksmiths, 21 Manu sets dedicated to Necklaces and 30 Manu sets dedicated to Statues. The remaining 25 sets of Workshops should run Farmers overnight, and a ratio of 1:1:3:10:10 Brewer through Farmer during the day. The remaining 20 sets of Manus should run Bracelets overnight and a ratio of 7:13 Flacon:Bracelet during the day.

Roughly speaking, that's a little less than 3 sets of Workshops and a little more than 2 sets of Manus per fellow.

 

[Sir Derf]

Let's go more complicated.

Let's assume a fellowship of 25 members, 13 Elves and 12 Humans. Every fellow has 1 set of Powerhouse Workshops and 1 set of Powerhouse Manus, but they are only willing to use them in their usual 3-3-3-3-3-9 rates. They will pre-produce, and their goal is to clear all the points-efficient Waypoints on all 3 maps.

Real life intruding again, but that's my game plan for the next post.

 

[Sir Derf]

Oops, just noticed I worked out the earlier with my maximum points numbers, not my minim path numbers. I'll correct the above post to reflect that goal, and make a new post to work out the minimum path.