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Discussion News from Beta (may contain spoilers!)

Jackluyt

Shaman
Bracelets and Residue

I have checked various member's cities and come to the conclusion that you can make a maximum of about 5 bracelets per day (tier one goods from normal chapter-level factories); the average for my fighting members with 6 - 8 maxed factories boosted with lots of MM's and playing all day long is about 3-4 per day, and normal players ought to be able to do 1 or 2.
That is more than enough for a fellowship to finish the current FA, if all 25 participate.
I think this was a very cunning move from the designers and I commend them on it! It is the best way to stop city-packing with hundreds of level one buildings like an immense shanty town - because bracelets and residue (15 vision vapor) now seem to be the limiting factor, and shanty-packing will get you no further than your fellowship's maximum production of those limiting items.
:)

I still think that the best way to make the FA fair and universally accessible would be to have one 'easy' path to the top in every Stage (particularly Stage Three), for the weaker fellowships who just want the stage prizes - and the other two more difficult for the groups that want ranking points.
 
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DeletedUser8406

Guest
Shanty towns are being re-developed to spit out horrendous amounts of T1 goods, they will always adapt to the needs of an FA and plenty space left over to cram in T1 level one and workshops as the limiting factor going forward will only be Vision vaper. I have said since the start the winning fellowship for every FA now will be the fellowship that spend real money on diamonds to refresh the offers at 50 diamonds a go... this is nothing but a change to gain income from diamonds and that is why I am so against it. Drop vision vaper and we go back to the fellowship that works as a team best winning like before.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I think this was a very cunning move from the designers and I commend them on it! It is the best way to stop city-packing with hundreds of level one buildings like an immense shanty town - because bracelets and tiaras (15 vision vapor) now seem to be the limiting factor, and shanty-packing will get you no further than your fellowship's maximum production of those limiting items.
That's all very well, but it removes any strategy from the game. People will now collect whatever their maximum number of bracelets and Arcane Residues is. There's not much to change it, except for the use of MM spells and feeding Phoenixes at the right time... and possibly teleporting in extra manus. These two badges now very definitely become the limiting factors, by several fold. Therefore no consideration really has to be given to blacksmiths, statues and any other badges as you will only be held back by the difficult two.

To give an example, our Beta fellowship (which isn't in the top echelon of FA teams), will finish the third map being about 40 Arcane Residues short of what is needed to complete all badges on the maps. With bracelets we will have about 20 extra. We will have 4-500 extra Elvarian Guard badges and it doesn't matter that they are needed in the pit because you just get stopped on the first cycle by the lack of Arcane Residue badges. We have tons of Blacksmiths and Necklaces left over. People stopped paying them much attention to them about halfway through because they no longer matter.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Something will always be the limiting factor. Why not a production badge?

For that matter, what counts as a Production Badge...

There are badges from things you make; 4 Supplies, 3 Goods, Enchantments, CC, Vision Vapor, Military and Coins, for a total of 12 out of 16.
There are badges from things you gain elsewhere; Enchantments, CC, Relics, Vision Vapors, Coins, for a total of 4 out of 16.
There are badges from things you use; Enchantments, Encounters, Vision Vapors, AWKP, for a total of 4 out of 16.

just a quick typo: you have the CC in there twice, if you remove it from the second line your numbers work out :)

I agree production badge is a rather non exact term. Maybe amount production would be a better term? Not sure.
Anyway maybe I should leave that line of thought altogether and instead say: Fun factor increasing badge? Skill badge?

I am just sitting there and think: What happens if the limiting factor is a certain badge, meaning what will we have to do to increase that badge?

Now the bracelets is exactly what I don´t want to be the limiter, because the result is: we have to plaster our cities with upgraded T1 factories, how dull is that??? Well we can use MM enchantments and the ETC and MHalls AW to increase production, but still.... In my eyes even far duller (and more annoying) than having shanty towns. If anything it could imbalance the trader for a while because suddenly everybody overproduces T1 (depending on overall participation in FAs of course) I can see lots of negative and nothing at all positive. One of the worst possible choices I find. Changing it from T1 production, to any goods production would certainly help (not eliminate) with the negative sides above, but my excitement would still be limited as to the fun factor of goods production...

CC production? Somewhat more interesting. At least it´s more than 1 action you can take (upgrade MA, change MA production, play more spire, place more libraries). it is also a useful resource to produce. So better yes, but still not great.

Tourney badges (encounters, relics, enchantments) are a whole different story. I like the idea of those being the most important in a way, because tourneys nowadays actually do require skill. Also there are other ways to increase the badges outside the tourney. But on the other hand, why should a FA be decided by who is best at tourneys? What´s the point of having an FA altogether then?

VV badge? It basically will depend on how many CCs you have stored up and how many diamonds you are willing to spend on flipping the MA. Both of which are not bad ideas anyway (producing garbage with high VV count is detrimental of course), CC production (see above) is a rather varied task. Diamonds can be made in the spire to a limited extent, but still it would be a rather obvious pay-to-win badge, something I really don´t like.

Coins? Technically probably not the worst candidate: Increase neighbour help everywhere, finally some use for all the coin instants, one can place and build more residences to increase output as well as use Culture boost/EE enchantments. So I would say complex enough. will lead to residence farms instead of shanty towns, which is of doubtful use, but anyway. But really coins to decide who wins the FA? The fun factor is rather low on that one.

Using enchantments (or KP instants): Far too one dimensional and the winner will be whoever has most of the old towns with zillions of the item in storage. The opposite of exciting.

Troops production? Well at least it is a useful thing to do and it would therefore be a good lesson for everybody to try to maximize it. There are a few ways on how to increase troop production: AWs, Crafted buildings, troop instants. So probably one of the better candidates. But still I can´t find myself excited about the prospect to decide the winner of an FA based on how many troops they can produce. It doesn´t feel right.

What´s left is the old badges I think: And while it does take skill (increasing shanty towns is not as easy as it sounds) and especially lots of determination to make more of these badges. It is complex enough in the setup stage to not be boring (while the collection is not the most exciting thing I´ve ever done), but of course it produces nothing useful so that´s another downside. It is also counterproductive in terms of ranking points. So I´d say OK but not a stellar group of candidates. Of course there being many different ones it means not one of them sticks out because they are interchangable. Make more of one, makes less of another.

So as a summary I would say:
- there is not one great choice for a limiting factor
- If we want the FA to change from how it was the old badges cannot be the only limiting badges, because if they were it was the same as before with minor changes.
- that leaves 2 choices:
1. Add other, better badges (not sure that would be easy or even possible?) and make them the limiting factor.
2. use the ones above and work really hard at balancing the required numbers out. The more badges are close enough to each other, the more interesting the whole FA event gets. Different FS will have to compensate in different ways to improve on their special "weakness". There won´t be one boring way to the top.

I am afraid far too little time and effort has been used in the balancing part of the FA. Some badges are clearly junk badges, while other are clearly too rare. The shanty towns can be adjusted according to needs (that is positive). But very few very rare badges mess up the entire system of the FA, because everything else becomes junk automatically.
I know this is not an easy process, but Inno added new badges intentionally. One cannot just spend 1 days brainstorming session on which new badges to add and then nothing after, it takes infinitely more time to test and balance things and it seems they have cheaped out on the process. Beta saw some changes, but a lot more is needed to make this a far better event. And for me that is essential, FAs are my favorite event. I don´t want to see them go down the drain.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
just a quick typo: you have the CC in there twice, if you remove it from the second line your numbers work out :)
Not a typo, and not trying to have the numbers work out. Even with your suggested adjustment, 12+3+4=19, not 16.

Also, there were other dups you didn't mention. Enchantments, CC and Coins can be both produced in the MA or residences, and gained through Tourney, Spire and NH.
 

DeletedUser8406

Guest
Sir Derf great suggestion it can replace the vision vaper badge.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Bracelets and Tiaras

I have checked various member's cities and come to the conclusion that you can make a maximum of about 5 bracelets per day (tier one goods from normal chapter-level factories); the average for my fighting members with 6 - 8 maxed factories boosted with lots of MM's and playing all day long is about 3-4 per day, and normal players ought to be able to do 1 or 2.
That is more than enough for a fellowship to finish the current FA, if all 25 participate.
I think this was a very cunning move from the designers and I commend them on it! It is the best way to stop city-packing with hundreds of level one buildings like an immense shanty town - because bracelets and tiaras (15 vision vapor) now seem to be the limiting factor, and shanty-packing will get you no further than your fellowship's maximum production of those limiting items.
:)

I still think that the best way to make the FA fair and universally accessible would be to have one 'easy' path to the top in every Stage (particularly Stage Three), for the weaker fellowships who just want the stage prizes - and the other two more difficult for the groups that want ranking points.

More accessible for everybody? Sure not a bad thing. Completely destroying every skill component? Typical Inno move... Same as events I guess, everybody can do it and everybody gets the same result. Boring.

I am not saying the changes are all bad, but they have to put skill into the mix somewhere. And they could if they balanced the badges better than they currently do. If Inno is going to spend time (=money) on the necessary balancing to achieve that? I sure hope so, but my trust in Inno is not the best lately...
 

Pauly7

Magus
Also, Tiaras will only be a limiting factor in a fellowship of early game players. More further advanced players will have the ability to knock out hundreds of those. I envision that badge being even easier than the Elvarian Guard to come by.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Not a typo, and not trying to have the numbers work out. Even with your suggested adjustment, 12+3+4=19, not 16.

Also, there were other dups you didn't mention. Enchantments, CC and Coins can be both produced in the MA or residences, and gained through Tourney, Spire and NH.

Ah I guess I only looked at then number at the end of your lines, but then I guess we just skip those.

I think I mentioned all of what you added? With the exception of lumping all the other ways to make tourney badges into the term "other ways outside the tourney" For simplicity´s sake, I doubt they will make a major difference, just wanted to mention there are other ways to make a few of these... Anyway yes it would be more complete to add them :)
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
The over use of MMs and speedups needed now, to get any decent number of some badges, is not sustainable in my opinion. I use both of these in events to be able to get as good as I can final prize. By nature I am a hoarder, so I do have a fair amount of those in stock. I love FAs and for me it was always about time management and team work. To be able to still do reasonably well, I foresee that all hoarded stock will be used. Not enough of those can be generated again for the next event and next FA. I want to do better, not worse.

I find it sad that the FA has now also become hinged on tourney and spire ability. It was good that the game had a competition for those of us not so tourney or spire orientated.

I personally have nothing against what some call shanty towns. For me there is beauty in a well put-together FA city. Previously it might have been just a city taken up a few chapters and then turned over to FA city, a city built from scratch to be a FA city, but with the portal spells, the big footprint cities are able to have even more FA buildings if they were prepared to clean big parts of their city,

Sustainability is what I would like to see.

Inno needs to remember that they put together a game where we have choices on how we play the game and my way may not be your way, but neither of our ways are wrong, just different. Neither should players not favouring the spire or tourney be excluded from being able to do well in at least one team competition.
 

Julian

Sorcerer
The old FA system required a lot of preparation, working up the Spire each week to earn teleports so you can remove your big buildings. It then required skill and dedication to create an efficient shanty town, as well as time management in the optimal harvesting of production badges. All that will be for naught, if vision vapour becomes the limiting factor. There will be little competition amongst the top teams, if there's no skill in gaining a higher score. The winning fellowship could become the one who is prepared to spend the most diamonds to refresh the crafting recipes in the MA. How sad would that be.
 

Pauly7

Magus
The old FA system required a lot of preparation, working up the Spire each week to earn teleports so you can remove your big buildings. It then required skill and dedication to create an efficient shanty town, as well as time management in the optimal harvesting of production badges. All that will be for naught, if vision vapour becomes the limiting factor. There will be little competition amongst the top teams, if there's no skill in gaining a higher score. The winning fellowship could become the one who is prepared to spend the most diamonds to refresh the crafting recipes in the MA. How sad would that be.
Yeah I agree. The bottomless pit definitely became a case of sitting there with people deciding if they want to spend a load of time boosters making more residues or T1 productions. Blacksmiths, necklaces, etc, didn't come into the thinking because everyone had plenty.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I think this was a very cunning move from the designers and I commend them on it! It is the best way to stop city-packing with hundreds of level one buildings like an immense shanty town - because bracelets and tiaras (15 vision vapor) now seem to be the limiting factor, and shanty-packing will get you no further than your fellowship's maximum production of those limiting items.
:)

That's all very well, but it removes any strategy from the game. People will now collect whatever their maximum number of bracelets and Arcane Residues is. There's not much to change it, except for the use of MM spells and feeding Phoenixes at the right time... and possibly teleporting in extra manus. These two badges now very definitely become the limiting factors, by several fold. Therefore no consideration really has to be given to blacksmiths, statues and any other badges as you will only be held back by the difficult two.

To give an example, our Beta fellowship (which isn't in the top echelon of FA teams), will finish the third map being about 40 Arcane Residues short of what is needed to complete all badges on the maps. With bracelets we will have about 20 extra. We will have 4-500 extra Elvarian Guard badges and it doesn't matter that they are needed in the pit because you just get stopped on the first cycle by the lack of Arcane Residue badges. We have tons of Blacksmiths and Necklaces left over. People stopped paying them much attention to them about halfway through because they no longer matter.

I think it only makes these guilds do more spire in the future.
What will happen is dat they will "collect" cc for a long time, and then blow it all in 1 go.

Spire with both time boosters (indirect cc) and with direct cc. this will allow a lot of residue be made.
off course they also hope you start spamming the reset timer as much as possible, which with all the free diamonds from the spire for these accounts is a good option (even without spending money)

While it will not be 25 of those crazy towns anymore I do not think we will get rid of them any time soon, and old events buildings like mermaids paradise will be amazing.

just my superset will be 4-5 of those things a day, but thats unrealistic, but plenty of people have multiple mermaids.

edit: and do not forget magical manufacturing that you can prepare and stock up, elvenar trade center might become the next great FA wonder
 
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Sir Derf

Adept
Still working my way through the Misty Forest quests on Live, and I'm getting the feeling that these quests were a prelude to the new Fellowship Adventure. Look at all the semi-Bracelets we needed to produce...

Quests 11, 24, 34, 36, 37, 39, 41, 44, 46, 51, 54, 56, 61, 67, 69, 73 and74 asked for a good amount of T123
Quests 20 asked for a good amount of T1.

That's 18 out of 75 quests. 24%. Nearly 1 in 4. There was a sequence near the middle with 5 out of 8 quests.
 

Timneh

Artisan
Lack of imagination or they just could not be bothered to think of different quests so stuck loads of those quests in.
 
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