• Good day, Stranger! — Are you new to our forums?

    Have I seen you here before? To participate in or to create forum discussions, you will need your own forum account. Register your account here!

Discussion July 2022 Fellowship Adventure - Feedback

Skallywag

Spellcaster
... For coins, I visit everyone and come up short. Maybe I can look between the sofa cushions and scrape up the rest to make 1 coin badge. Then I have to wait almost a whole day to do neighborly visits again. I cannot speed that process up with time Instants. I cannot speed up my resident coin collects with time instants either, though trying to get a coin badge from residents will prob take another day....
That's likely the difference then. I would get 2-3 coins from visiting all my neighbors...but I've got 49 pages of neighbors. I assume since your city is smaller that's one of the differences. I also have all magic residences, and at the time had a lot of culture buildings. With all the visits, and EE on every one of them, my culture boost varied in the 500-600% range. So a lot of coins there too. Based on all that, yeah I could sustain filling in the gaps with coin rains for quite some time. But I see your dilema.

As far as the peeps saying "We're never doing FAs again," I say whatever works for them. The forum is full of people saying how they hate something in the game now, they're done, etc. And yet we seem to still be playing it.

In any case, you guys still did a great job in the FA's, so congrats!
 

Laurelin

Scholar
Please Note : LONG POST with analysis - please just skip if you do not enjoy such posts. Thank you.

I [still!] have much to say about the FA Coins Badge issue - both per se and also as it relates to the whole game - but to keep things relevant - here is a quote from the Beta Forum which I find interesting, and also of note in the EN Live Server debate, as well :

[...] the best score for french server was 103.800 ( 7% less than the best score of this team ) and for ranking no change for one of the server , exactly same order for the last 2 FA (motivation is the crucial point of the result)
It appears to me that those players and/or Fellowships who have maintained a similar performance in the most recent FA, despite the greatly increased cost of Sacks of Coins, have done so largely by using up some - or in some cases, all - of their Coin Rain stockpiles. Even some of those players and/or FSs who aim only to complete one Path per Map are saying that they have done the same - in some cases, without success.

This is entirely understandable and in some cases even near-inevitable, because none of us can, by other means, have much long-term and/or sustainable influence over our Coins income, other than perhaps by devoting a lot more City space to Residences, which is not only a non-short-term solution (unlike e.g. building a 'slum' of T1 Workshops/Manus) but also, by the mid-to-end-game point, represents a radical change in the strategies of many players.

However, performing more and/or more frequent NH can only go so far, since it has a hard limit, and I've read comments by many players, both on the Forums and on Facebook, stating that even maximum-level NH wouldn't earn them sufficient Coins Badges - with one's good/bad/average position on the Map obviously having a strong influence here, since returned visits are a non-trivial factor (as others have already stated here).

Therefore, no amount of motivation (essential to success and also admirable as it is, of course) will, in the end, be able to overcome mathematics - as of course the comments exchange below (also from Beta - and between mathematically capable players) points out:

[...] the cost increases for KP are arithmetic, while gold capacity increases geometically. That means that after a while, the cost growth will be slow enough that your gold income will grow faster than the costs -- just not immediately. I buy KP with gold as often as possible, and the costs are still easily manageable for events. [...] That said, the increase in cost of additional KP is huge at the start of the game, which is where people get this false impression.
That's not really true, because it assumes your progression in the game would be linear. We all know that the later chapters are much longer. And what about people stuck at the end of the game, with no way to progress further ? Of course you still have wonders to keep progressing, but I think that by chapter 16-17 (which is where I'm at on the live worlds), your "easy income" grows much slower. The only part that still grows is getting more neighbors, but doing all the neighbors is tedious at best.
1) It doesn't assume linearity. It assumes the length of chapters grows at a slower exponential than the main hall capacity, which is true.
2) I'm at endgame, and I don't have a problem. This isn't theoretical. It really is easy income. I do it.
The only scary bit is that *at first* it does grow disturbingly quickly. It does level off at some point and any further growth is so slow to be unnoticeable. Think of it this way -- the number of KP you have to buy to increase the price by a set percent grows exponentially. This really shouldn't be a debate -- it's math, backed by actual practice that says it works. Really.
This is all true - at the moment. But to bring up an obvious parallel : until recently, it was equally true, whether in terms of maths, logic, or mere observation without any analysis at all, that Rune Shards [in excess of Boost requirements], of which most post-early-game Cities have/had far too many, for years on end, were literally worthless - whereas [as we all know] they have now become - suddenly, and with no prior warning - both very valuable and also very influential within the game, in many ways. This was done via a very simple and 'overnight' change, which I would imagine was, practically, very easy to implement - but the idea/belief that Inno implemented such a profoundly influential change without a great deal of prior analysis of their own - to which, of course, none of us were party - is, I would say, very unlikely to be correct.

So - having seen one of the the game's least-valued [by players] Resources (and noting that perhaps only Broken Shards were/are seen as less valuable) transformed, by Inno, with no persuasive rationale, into one of its most-valued Resources - certainly in the case of early Cities which have no stockpiles - what interests me most with respect to the equally unexpected and sudden - and profoundly influential - re-valuation of Coins Badges, and therefore of Coins themselves [and I do not accept that this was an accident, even if its timing was]... what interests me, then, are the twin facts that : (a) the game is entirely based, at its most fundamental level, upon the rate at which Coins accrue and the amounts in which they accrue - which none of us can influence in any long-term, sustainable, or even very significant manner (with a permanent increase in our engagement in NH - assuming a useful Map position - being the only realistic apparent method); together with (b) the fact that Inno can, at their option, alter the Coins accrual rate, and/or the amounts thereby acquired, at will - just as they altered the value of Rune Shards, at will.

Or to put it much more shortly : If nothing changes, things stay the same. But only 'IF'. And where the game's base Resource is concerned - I, for one, find it somewhat risky to assume that something so fundamentally important will never change - especially where I see that there is at least some evidence of such a change for early-game Cities (i.e. the future players of the game) there IS evidence of change, even though we lack sufficient data and insight on this to be able correctly to analyse same - or even, at present, to be certain it will even be implemented as-is.

I would further mention here that I hear reports from some players who are operating 'new Research Tree' early-game Cities that Coins (and much else - but Coins are the topic here) are in very short supply, not least because the cycling Quests have been removed and/or altered to provide non-Coins/Supplies rewards. This, again, means that such Cities must primarily rely upon NH as a sustainable long-term source of Coins.

I personally am not persuaded that the two current situations [of which most of us are aware] in which Coins are not only valuable but even scarce - namely for early-game Cities [always] and for larger, later Cities which compete strongly in the FA - are wholly independent of each other.

I also find it of note that Coins - for obvious reasons - are the one Resource which most players (who aren't heavy Spire Caterers) agree is always [and sometimes overly] plentiful - while also being the one [primary] Resource in the game - again, Coins are actually its foundation - over which we have little, if any, control, and which only Inno can significantly [i.e. mathematically] influence - when and/or if they so choose.

For this reason, most of us have actively avoided ever winning or earning Coin Rains, and see them as little more than an occupational hazard of playing Events and progressing through the Spire - until the point we have now reached, of course. How many of us will still see those 100% Coin Rains which are offered as Event Grand Prizes as more or less a joke reward, to avoid where possible or, if won, simply to ignore in Inventory?

And for once, I'll leave to others further thought upon, and/or any conclusions to be drawn from, the possible ramifications of any or all of this... :)

[ETA at c.17:40 pm : Quotes from Beta Forum extended for clarity]
 
Last edited:

schadenfreude

Conjurer
Let's not forget that nobody's forcing us to do anything. It's much easier to get all the prizes now than it was a year ago without tedious work in reasonably active fellowships. I do understand that it gets much harder when we aim for a good ranking but it's not a necessity to enjoy the game, it's only a small part of the game that can be skipped.
I consider myself to have a decent game IQ. I am thankful to have an abundance of most resources, have the know how of where and how to acquire them, and can spend them freely. I also have a very good team around me. I sympathize with those less well off and in less effective teams or new fellowships because I was at one point one of those players too. If a more advanced player like me is struggling to get a coin badge, then it becomes a pretty hopeless endeavor for the majority of the game base. Like I've said, if I didn't burn my coin rains, it'll probably take a day to get a coin badge. I too only have magic residences won from the Spire so that is another luxury most do not have, but it will still take forever and a half to collect enough for a coin badge from residences. Yes, my group happened to have placed very well ranking wise, but this would be a struggle for most FS who don't care about rank, just want to finish 3 paths, and lack the resources.

In any case, you guys still did a great job in the FA's, so congrats!
Thank you, @Skallywag.

@Laurelin That’s why I am harping on the inconsistency of the messaging. If the German CM has already come out with a mea culpa of sorts, why is everyone else still in the dark and left to think this is normal? If this is a mistake like German CM said, then we know the coin rain purge is a one off. If it is here to stay, then FAs just got a whole lot more expensive for competitive groups and not worth participating for casual groups. Everyone has to hoard coin rains in between. They didn’t even put any coin badges in those badge packages they sold! Could have raked in the bling on this mess before everyone ran away from FAs for good!
 

AsterObelix

Alchemist
They didn’t even put any coin badges in those badge packages they sold! Could have raked in the bling on this mess before everyone ran away from FAs for good!

I was really surprised to see that there were no coin badges in the packages they sold. Clearly a marketing error ...
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
Personally, I don’t think that coin badges are a huge problem. Yes, we will all run out of coin instants and that’s not a big loss as they were sitting in the inventory idle anyway and they keep coming. Competitive FSs need to come with different ways to keep their ranking and that’s fine, it’s a competition and the ones that put in the most effort should win. I actually think it’s great that they did some changes to shake up the rankings as different FSs got a chance to win as well, not just the same ones every time. Let’s spread the fun around. :)

But I do have a problem with them doing a big change without notice. They don’t even need to tell us what changes are they, just a notice that there is a big change coming is fine by me. It’s unfair to keep doing the same thing over and over and then suddenly change it and expect everyone to be fine with it. Nobody likes to put an effort into preparation for something and then realise that it was waste of time. That’s why I wouldn’t recommend big preparation for next FA as anything can happen and the effort might be wasted again. Let’s not do the same mistake again.
 

Pauly7

Magus
You only have to look at all the new coin requirements in the current event quests to know this isn't a mistake. Inno means to run dry everyone's coin rain stocks before making coins the game's main, scarce resource. A resource which affects literally everything.
 

Hekata

Summoner
You only have to look at all the new coin requirements in the current event quests to know this isn't a mistake. Inno means to run dry everyone's coin rain stocks before making coins the game's main, scarce resource. A resource which affects literally everything.
I wish the'd remove the cap on coins. My capacity is always at full when I'm done with the Spire (usually by Thursday) and I have to waste coins on the wholesaler and then once the Spire starts I run out of coins fast and have to often use instants. It would make these new coin requirements a bit more balanced.
 

Hekata

Summoner
In the good old days, players would have been able to try to at least partially compensate these kind of changes with AWs: in this case for instance add levels to the GA and the Blooming trader and which ever AWs boosts the EE spell. Or add expansions to build more residences... Now, because of the Tourney/Spire formula, there is little we can do. It takes out a whole level of strategy out of game. In fact for me it takes out the most interesting part of the game.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
I wish the'd remove the cap on coins. My capacity is always at full when I'm done with the Spire (usually by Thursday) and I have to waste coins on the wholesaler and then once the Spire starts I run out of coins fast and have to often use instants. It would make these new coin requirements a bit more balanced.

Have you tried to spend your coins on KPs. I get around 10kps per day just from excess coins and the same from goods. I don't even like catering tournament as I get more KPs from spending coins and goods on buying the KPs directly.
 

Hekata

Summoner
Have you tried to spend your coins on KPs. I get around 10kps per day just from excess coins and the same from goods. I don't even like catering tournament as I get more KPs from spending coins and goods on buying the KPs directly.
I suppose that's a good option for most players. In my case I have currently over 11K KPs in my Kp bar (that's he price of sitting in the same chapter since the new tournament formula) so I don't really need KPs. Plus I'm trying to only use that option for event quests, we seem to have more and more of those.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
Now, because of the Tourney/Spire formula, there is little we can do. It takes out a whole level of strategy out of game. In fact for me it takes out the most interesting part of the game.
In my case I have currently over 11K KPs in my Kp bar (that's he price of sitting in the same chapter since the new tournament formula) so I don't really need KPs.

As long as it works for you, that's all it matters. It still could be the challenge you ask for to start progressing again, I can imagine that it would be boring to stay in the same chapter for that long.
 

Hekata

Summoner
As long as it works for you, that's all it matters. It still could be the challenge you ask for to start progressing again, I can imagine that it would be boring to stay in the same chapter for that long.
Yes, I admit it has become a little boring. I've been thinking about progressing again for a while now, it's just that I don't see anything particularly exiting in chapters 16-19. Even before the changes to the tourney formula I was a bit fed up of guest races and I kept hoping something entirely new will show up, but it's mostly more of the same, just bigger and bigger settlements.
I do like the look of chapter 19 though, I think it's wizard themed again, that might push me forward... eventually :)
 

schadenfreude

Conjurer
You only have to look at all the new coin requirements in the current event quests to know this isn't a mistake. Inno means to run dry everyone's coin rain stocks before making coins the game's main, scarce resource. A resource which affects literally everything.
Yes, that is another good point. So now the German and US CMs have said something, but it's not that cranking it up to 4x was the mistake, but that the changes were released too soon. The live Q&A ended with Thiago saying he doesn't think there's a need to recalibrate the coin badge too :rolleyes:
 

Jake65

Sorcerer
You only have to look at all the new coin requirements in the current event quests to know this isn't a mistake. Inno means to run dry everyone's coin rain stocks before making coins the game's main, scarce resource. A resource which affects literally everything.
What could their reasoning be?
I can only see it slowing everyone down which they sort of achieve with guest race production. If they want to slow players down then they could make portal profit more scarce.
Or they could make coins available in the store for real money.
Any thoughts?
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
What could their reasoning be?
I can only see it slowing everyone down which they sort of achieve with guest race production. If they want to slow players down then they could make portal profit more scarce.
Or they could make coins available in the store for real money.
Any thoughts?

Maybe because players complain that they're getting or having too many "useless" coin instants? :D
 
Top