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Fighting/catering difficulty change through chapters

Laurelin

Sorcerer
@JollyElf : Thanks for the HF info. I do see it levelled up in many Cities which are solid Tourney performers, so my guess is that maybe it's more useful in Auto-Combat than Manual? - especially where nasty Enemy combos/Terrain can sometimes (even if stats don't suggest it) be cheaply offset by 5 x HM, even with high losses? And it's interesting to hear about the LM improvement. I avoid LM so habitually that I've observed very little about them, player-side, and I've seen little written about non-Dogs types, either. I'll experiment a bit with my own Drones & Swords :)

Otherwise - completely agree with your points, especially on LR Barracks Troops (Elf Archers here) being very handy back-ups, or even first choices for me, since my Rangers are still only 2* and the Archers' 20% debuff is useful to me in its own right. Not sure how Human Crossbows compare?

I'm often in-game, so I'd actually prefer the Needles not to increase Barracks Training Speed (non-standard view, I know) - but (@Jake65) having +30% Damage for LR Troops is too vital NOT to have a fully-levelled Needles. Only the Monastery/Sanctuary is a more useful Combat AW, IMO.

And I also consider the +50% Fire Phoenix boost to be my default Combat mode. I couldn't do without it, in fact. Mine cost me MONTHS of Blueprints (and not a few Diamonds...) after I won precisely ONE Phoenix Artifact when it appeared in the Spire - argh, the memory won't fade!

@Silly Bubbles : Inno-maths - don'tcha love it?! Inconsistently confusing in a very consistent way... ;)

Mind you, and unless I'm mistaken (? - I can understand the maths of others way better than doing it myself, so my info here is based on Forum readings), for me the greatest Inno AW Maths Mystery, so far, has to be : Why is the Mountain Halls' Goods production % increase applied before the Relic Boost % increase - meaning that an increase which does look very good on paper, being +24% even at the AW's starting Level, turns out to be, in fact, very trivial?! I deleted my MH at Level 18 (a sacrifice to the 2020 Formula, even though the loss of Pop was pretty annoying in my small-footprint City) when I realised HOW small the Goods % increase really is... as I say, I find this an irrational decision on Inno's part, considering that most Cities which can even build an AW which isn't even Researched until the end of Ch.VI Dwarves should already have achieved the full 700% Relic Boost by then, and thus very probably will consider their Relic-boosted production to be the MH's base 100% figure.

Maybe another candidate for a more ingenuous or at least clearer Tooltip? - or, even better, just give the [huge-footprint] MH a better buff! :)
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
@Silly Bubbles : Inno-maths - don'tcha love it?! Inconsistently confusing in a very consistent way... ;)

Mind you, and unless I'm mistaken (? - I can understand the maths of others way better than doing it myself, so my info here is based on Forum readings), for me the greatest Inno AW Maths Mystery, so far, has to be : Why is the Mountain Halls' Goods production % increase applied before the Relic Boost % increase - meaning that an increase which does look very good on paper, being +24% even at the AW's starting Level, turns out to be, in fact, very trivial?! I deleted my MH at Level 18 (a sacrifice to the 2020 Formula, even though the loss of Pop was pretty annoying in my small-footprint City) when I realised HOW small the Goods % increase really is... as I say, I find this an irrational decision on Inno's part, considering that most Cities which can even build an AW which isn't even Researched until the end of Ch.VI Dwarves should already have achieved the full 700% Relic Boost by then, and thus very probably will consider their Relic-boosted production to be the MH's base 100% figure.

Maybe another candidate for a more ingenuous or at least clearer Tooltip? - or, even better, just give the [huge-footprint] MH a better buff! :)

I think you quite well know that I do have respect for Inno and the game. :)
Sorry but I'm done explaining things over and over again while I don't get much back. So have fun, enjoy your game, pick whatever advice you want, it's your city and you're the one responsible for your actions. Good luck! :)
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Thanks for the HF info. I do see it levelled up in many Cities which are solid Tourney performers,
Every aw is designed to be useful and how useful is debatable at a personal level .
Yes hardcore battle people, usually the parked players, have them because it does fall into the combat category and they have all other combat AWs maxed.
Personally i use hm, (say) 10% of the battles and their effects are visible but it raises cost for the other 90% of the battles where their effects are not present (no hm used). So overall, (say) saving 10% more squads in those 10% battles is more detrimental than loosing 2% more squads in the other 90% of the battles. Their usefulness does increases with the frequency of hm used.

The other 4 attack boosting AWs have both benefits that offset costs. (Lm : Tg training speed. Lr : barracks training speed, mage : mana, hr : extra troops). HF fades cuz of the 2nd benefit being of medium use.

Auto-Combat than Manual?
Don’t think manual battles are the norm anymore. Can’t imagine people doing 80 provinces, 6 encounters, every week. (80x6 = 480 battles @ 1 min per battle = 8 hours battling!!! With 0 cool down!!! We aren’t that hardcore gamers :) )
It’s exciting first 6 months but becomes robotic soon. Even *MTG* announced that manual battle won’t be implemented on phone apps.
Maybe another candidate for a more ingenuous or at least clearer Tooltip? - or, even better, just give the [huge-footprint] MH a better buff!
MH was the first warning. Got fooled indeed. That’s was the trigger for me to start doing math and double checking their tooltips. “Fool me twice, shame on me” :D

PPS : all of these have been extensively, repeatedly and heatedly debated already and all the information is well known, at least to the forum users. I guess we are re visiting the same 2020 topic in 2022 cuz we do like to read and write a bit and talk to each other. And probably have differences in opinions opinions and shake our heads in disagreement. :p
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
Oh. MTG, a Sweden based company is the majority owner after a huge takeover from Inno, Hamburg, Germany.

Luckily, Inno still exists. Thank you very much for correcting a very important, relevant and significant detail of the whole conversation.
PS. Sorry that I corrected your numbers earlier, being right is not very liked here. Not liking the game and complaining surely wins. :D

MH was the first warning. Got fooled indeed. That’s was the trigger for me to start doing math and double checking their tooltips. “Fool me twice, shame on me” :D

I wouldn't ignore the other half of MH and calculate what kind of population it gives comparing to any other building, it's a very good space saver for people that like to progress fast through the chapters. There can be some sense in something that might seem madness to you when you have a second look.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Thank you very much for correcting a very important, relevant and significant detail of the whole conversation.
Thank you for relevantly pointing out the irrelevance. :D
Sorry that I corrected your numbers earlier
Just basic % definition.
no, this discussion is not about you buddy. We all love you.
I also consider the +50% Fire Phoenix boost to be my default Combat mode
Default for almost all endgamers. So assumed 150% base. I acknowledge special cases do exist without fire Phoenix (my little city, per se) where your reference to 100% as base is valid.
Not liking the game and complaining surely wins.
Not true either. Nobody is complaining.
MH and calculate what kind of population
Yep. Every aw Is useful. I’m starting a 2nd city in another world which is more economy and less battle oriented and I’d love to build more of a liberal city.
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
Thank you for relevantly pointing out the irrelevance. :D

Just basic % definition.
no, this discussion is not about you buddy. We all love you.

Default for almost all endgamers. So assumed 150% base. I acknowledge special cases do exist without fire Phoenix (my little city, per se) where your reference to 100% as base is valid.

Not true either. Nobody is complaining.

Yep. Every aw Is useful. I’m starting a 2nd city in another world which is more economy and less battle oriented and I’d love to build more of a liberal city.

Yes, you're right! Happy?
Actually, I've found couple of more problems but I think I'm getting enough hard time today. Maybe tomorrow. :p:D
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Yes, you're right! Happy?
Actually, I've found couple of more problems but I think I'm getting enough hard time today. Maybe tomorrow. :p:D
Nah. I’d rather you be happy too .

Do share your opinions tomorrow. And don’t take comments personally. This is general sharing of opinions with general public. Oh, i mean the 5 people who are active in forums .

I can’t forcefully under emphasise HF in other cities just like someone cannot forcefully over emphasise Enar (or MH) in my battle city. Id not build HF in my battle city and build an MH in my 5k-6k target little city. Choices depend on how you want to tune your city… and my target scores as boundary conditions.

Forums are too lonely after the mass exodus including moderators, and Jack luyt recently … so thanks for sharing your opinions and keeping stuff going.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
PPPS : all the tunings appear senseless, unless you attempt 20k score a few times in a row.

Honestly, I’d find a less restricted city more relaxing. So, do ignore those suggestions if you don’t want to “self invent” a challenge : 15-20k tournament average.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
PPPS : all the tunings appear senseless, unless you attempt 20k score a few times in a row.

Honestly, I’d find a less restricted city more relaxing. So, do ignore those suggestions if you don’t want to “self invent” a challenge : 15-20k tournament average.

In part by making the city advancement (tech level and wonders) less important, Inno has hugely increased the impact of other factors - many of which can be purchased. Booster buildings in particular can be bought either directly, or indirectly (by spending diamonds to flip the MA).

I'd say that spending a-lot of money is by far the easiest way to sustain a high tournament average. One player on Felyndral is averaging 35k+ (with using a huge number of boosters) for example.

Manual fighting can also make a sizeable difference, but that requires a huge expenditure of time for high scores.

I'd suggest that optimising for the formula is much less important (even for top scorers) than either of the above).
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
One player on Felyndral is averaging 35k+ (with using a huge number of boosters) for example.
Wow. Checked that ***howl city. 10 red pandas and 10 twilight Phoenix. 50% of dead troops recovered just with the twilight bird fed. Not sure why heavy boosters needed, if normally/ regularly trained troops don’t die too much. Moderate/winnable amounts of boosters are sufficient.

You are correct. Money beats everything in the game. Thanks for bringing that city to my attention.

And manual battles, are super cool too. FoE allows app manual battles. Would be really nice if Inno brings it cross platform. But guess MTG would not do it anytime soon.
 

schadenfreude

Conjurer
I'm often in-game, so I'd actually prefer the Needles not to increase Barracks Training Speed (non-standard view, I know)
You could level a Shrewdy or Bulwark to counter a Needles upgrade to prevent the queue from being too short. That also assists you in the long run when you get a Simia or feed your Brown Bear. Bigger stacks = more free troops.
Even *MTG* announced that manual battle won’t be implemented on phone apps.
When did this happen? :(
And manual battles, are super cool too. FoE allows app manual battles. Would be really nice if Inno brings it cross platform. But guess MTG would not do it anytime soon.
The battle engine on FoE is also WAAAaaAaAAaaAAAAaaaaAyyyyyy faster than Elvenar's. You get do so many more provinces done in the same amount of time. Add any freakin HM into the battle and that encounter now takes triple the amount of time in a manual battle! :rolleyes:
 

Silly Bubbles

Illusionist
In part by making the city advancement (tech level and wonders) less important, Inno has hugely increased the impact of other factors - many of which can be purchased. Booster buildings in particular can be bought either directly, or indirectly (by spending diamonds to flip the MA).

I'd say that spending a-lot of money is by far the easiest way to sustain a high tournament average. One player on Felyndral is averaging 35k+ (with using a huge number of boosters) for example.

Manual fighting can also make a sizeable difference, but that requires a huge expenditure of time for high scores.

I'd suggest that optimising for the formula is much less important (even for top scorers) than either of the above).

It’s good to see that there’s an agreement that the formula is not important. :)
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
@Far Reach i checked your city on F world. Really impressive city. My commendations on achieving what you have there.

Can you share your tournament squad size (say first province first encounter, or 10th province 1st encounter) next week for my “personal” data tuning project. It will be a major help and id sincerely appreciate the help.

I promise to not make my optimization/parameter tuning public and spark another debate.

Thanks again and best wishes to all in RL.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
I am mildly adjusting the weights as I do 1-2 techs each week. (And probably 1 aw level)
I want to extrapolate it to a very big city to check for inaccuracies.
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
@Far Reach

Can you share your tournament squad size (say first province first encounter, or 10th province 1st encounter) next week for my “personal” data tuning project. It will be a major help and id sincerely appreciate the help.

My squad size in the very first Spire province is 22986.

I did a quick calculation using the Aug 2020 formula, and got a value slightly different from the above. So (if I didn't make any errors) then I agree that it looks as though something has changed very slightly.
 

JollyElf

Soothsayer
Thanks a lot my friend.
Actual CAL : 39631.03 (assuming 2020 scaling factor)
Projected TSS0 = 4593.23 (that is cool… i really am hoping for a change in tech weights and for some free time to verify that)

And id suppose/assume your actual TSS0 would be roughly 5% lower than the projection.
 
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Laurelin

Sorcerer
@JollyElf @Far Reach @schadenfreude : I'm having problems keeping up with the Forums at the moment due to weird intermittent PC failures (I can't use the Forums well on mobile), but I'm very interested in following along with any new info which you - or anyone else? - might discover about whether/to what extent the Formula has been changed, as well as any comments and/or calculations which you/others may post on this topic.

For info - I'm not capable of actually doing maths calculations of a non-basic nature (e.g. multiplying/dividing fractions or percentages), but I can follow the maths of others, including MinMax's own-site calculations, just for example, so if one or any of you would be kind enough to give me an @ tag in further discussions on this, I'd be really grateful.

I have a presence on a lot of Net discussions forums, and that would really help me to keep track of this particular subject here - whether in this thread, or in any new ones which might be started on the same subject, if any are...?

Many thanks in advance if you don't mind helping me out with my Net awareness while my crap old PC is still letting me down...! :)


Cheers ~ Laurelin

LAST SIGNIFICANT EDIT : 02 December, 12:19 am GMT
 
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JollyElf

Soothsayer
Many thanks in advance if you don't mind helping me out with my Net awareness while my crap old PC is still letting me down...! :)

Cheers ~ Laurelin
:) it’s actually after reading your interestingly worded posts that I “unkicked” myself into the forums.

I really don’t want to upset people who don’t want to discuss things about formulae / tuning / designing your city at your will.

On a rough note, I find things improved and I am happy. Or I might be wrong, depending on whether the screenshot/ parameters of the city is recorded on Sunday or some another day for the following week’s tournament. Without extensive data, it’s going to be a long run; I am the only source of my data. I am doing it as a nice little pass time / hobby on a free and pleasant day. On a busy week, I just keep screenshots.

Overall, to summarise, things have definitely improved. By how much… let’s see.
 
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