Question Fighting after Fourteen

[Jake65]

Question for the fighters:
I've seen quite a few comments that fighting after chapter 14 is significantly more difficult, largely due to a lack of fighting related upgrades.
Looking ahead at chapter 15 research though, I see there are numerous squad size upgrades and 3 troop upgrades?
Have I misunderstood something?
Seems like it should be slightly easier in 15.
Thanks in advance

 

[Pauly7]

Yes, you are a chapter out. Chapter 15 is amazing and that is where all the major upgrades are. Everything after chapter 15 is only detrimental to your tournament / spire abilities, because there are no improvements that keep pace with the increasing difficulty.

 

[Jake65]

Yes, you are a chapter out. Chapter 15 is amazing and that is where all the major upgrades are. Everything after chapter 15 is only detrimental to your tournament / spire abilities, because there are no improvements that keep pace with the increasing difficulty.

Thank you.
I still need to finish 14 but I might take some time during 15 to get some fighting wonders going to compensate for what (doesn't) come afterwards.

 

[Pauly7]

Thank you.
I still need to finish 14 but I might take some time during 15 to get some fighting wonders going to compensate for what (doesn't) come afterwards.

If you want the most efficient way to do it then head straight for all the military upgrades in chapter 15. Once you have them, about halfway through the chapter, that is the best place to park and work on AWs etc.

 

[Far Reach]

Everything after chapter 15 is only detrimental to your tournament / spire abilities, because there are no improvements that keep pace with the increasing difficulty.

This is debatable. The extra techs in each subsequent chapter do increase troop costs, but (according to my calculations) this is mostly offset by post C15 upgrades to the barracks/training grounds/merc camp allowing them to produce more troops per day. Also later chapters provide minor upgrades to many of troop types. From what I remember, my personal estimate was that completing C16 and C17 makes fighting slightly harder, but doing C18 and C19 makes it slightly easier. (There are a few forum discussions about this.)

 

[Jake65]

Does the enemy army size/strength increase as soon as you enter a new chapter?
Or does it track your own progress e.g. I upgrade my barracks light range, does their equivalent 'upgrade' in response?

 

[Far Reach]

Does the enemy army size/strength increase as soon as you enter a new chapter?
Or does it track your own progress e.g. I upgrade my barracks light range, does their equivalent 'upgrade' in response?

There are numerous posts about this (e.g. search for Spire Formula). The number of (non-optional) techs researched, the number of expansions placed, the number of AW levels and the production bonus are all combined to create a single value. That value scales both catering/diplomacy costs and also the size of both your and your opponents's armies.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

I'm in Ch19 and I haven't seen a drop in my score or ability to complete Spire. If it wasn't for daylight saving, my score would be improving. I can only do 4 rounds of tournament during half a year (I'm not going to get up 5:30am Sunday morning). The fights are harder but my troops get stronger and I also get more troops through army buildings upgrades.
The biggest difference that I've seen is the number of AW upgrades. People that park their city get ahead of themselves and keep building their AWs making things harder while they're losing the advantages of research tree. Also, I try to max my AWs before I add new ones, this keeps the number of AW upgrades down too as it's harder to get additional levels and also saves space. Personally, I prefer having a few maxed AWs that are very powerful to a lot of average power AWs at lower level.

 

[Stucon]

Personally, I prefer having a few maxed AWs that are very powerful to a lot of average power AWs at lower level.

Ditto

 

[Thagdal]

I'm in Ch19 and I haven't seen a drop in my score or ability to complete Spire. If it wasn't for daylight saving, my score would be improving. I can only do 4 rounds of tournament during half a year (I'm not going to get up 5:30am Sunday morning).

Maybe start the timewarp AW, get the tourny done in a few of days or less?!!

 

[Silly Bubbles]

Maybe start the timewarp AW, get the tourny done in a few of days or less?!!

I would have to care about tournament score enough. I prefer maxed Sunset Towers to save up some space first and finish my Simia once I'm happy to part with seeds and mana.

 

[SkyRider99]

I would have to care about tournament score enough. I prefer maxed Sunset Towers to save up some space first and finish my Simia once I'm happy to part with seeds and mana.

Nice! Sunset Towers and Simia Sapiens are two of my favourites also. A pity they get ridiculously expensive to upgrade at higher levels.

....C15 upgrades to the barracks/training grounds/merc camp allowing them to produce more troops per day.

I agree @Far Reach. My problem is now not about having enough troops. It is more about them not being strong enough, or about being out-numbered by enemy nasties. Losing thousands of troops *and* getting smashed and defeated is a bitter pill to swallow. Oh well.

Thanks be to Odin for the troop boosts. More Dwarven Armorers would still be nice though.

 

[Jake65]

Thanks everyone for the input, much appreciated.

 

[Pauly7]

This is debatable. The extra techs in each subsequent chapter do increase troop costs, but (according to my calculations) this is mostly offset by post C15 upgrades to the barracks/training grounds/merc camp allowing them to produce more troops per day. Also later chapters provide minor upgrades to many of troop types. From what I remember, my personal estimate was that completing C16 and C17 makes fighting slightly harder, but doing C18 and C19 makes it slightly easier. (There are a few forum discussions about this.)

I don't believe it is really debatable. I don't have the stats at my fingertips, but there is a lot of study in past threads. The effect of progression on tournament squad size has been calculated and documented by Minmax Gamer. As I understand it, there are no improvements, at least in chapter 16 or 17 that can keep pace with the increase in squad size. @CrazyWizard may be able to explain this better than me.

I'm in Ch19 and I haven't seen a drop in my score or ability to complete Spire. If it wasn't for daylight saving, my score would be improving. I can only do 4 rounds of tournament during half a year (I'm not going to get up 5:30am Sunday morning). The fights are harder but my troops get stronger and I also get more troops through army buildings upgrades.

Do you have anything to go on to back that up, or is it just a feeling? Minmax's calculator can accurately map the changes in squad size. It may be that your scores haven't reduced, but that doesn't mean that the cost of maintaining that score hasn't increased. During that time you may have got more savvy in collecting the other required resources to keep doing what you are doing.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

I don't believe it is really debatable. I don't have the stats at my fingertips, but there is a lot of study in past threads. The effect of progression on tournament squad size has been calculated and documented by Minmax Gamer. As I understand it, there are no improvements, at least in chapter 16 or 17 that can keep pace with the increase in squad size. @CrazyWizard may be able to explain this better than me.

Minmax Gamer haven't covered Ch18 and Ch19. Also, reality is always more reliable than theoretical calculations.

Do you have anything to go on to back that up, or is it just a feeling? Minmax's calculator can accurately map the changes in squad size. It may be that your scores haven't reduced, but that doesn't mean that the cost of maintaining that score hasn't increased. During that time you may have got more savvy in collecting the other required resources to keep doing what you are doing.

It's not a feeling. My stats prove that. If it was only because of players' are getting more savvy, wouldn't your score improve too? For me, it's really hard to improve after 5 years of playing. This is a very subjective topic and therefore not a reliable measure. Also, the fact that AW upgrades influence the difficulty is agreed on. The higher the number of AW upgrades, the more difficult fighting/catering is. When players park themselves, they don't escape this fact as they keep upgrading their AWs more than people that keep progressing through the chapters.

 

[Sir Derf]

Also, reality is always more reliable than theoretical calculations.

Oh the noes... one mustn't answer a question about a mathematical computation with "theoretical computations"...

 

[schadenfreude]

Also, the fact that AW upgrades influence the difficulty is agreed on. The higher the number of AW upgrades, the more difficult fighting/catering is.

But of all the variables, wonders "hurt" you the least. The increase is the smallest. Unlocking mandatory techs is the biggest ouchie factor for most people.

Essentially the ratio of troops is preset for everyone at the same point in the Spire and Tourney province. Things like wonders and unlocking mandatory techs increase stack size brought to battle and cost of catering. Increase in stack size results in more dead troops so you have to be able to replenish your stocks in time, week to week. You counter this with things like upgrading your barracks, merc camp, and training ground. However, most chapters only allow you to upgrade one of these buildings (some chapters 2). You can further offset the troop increase from the formula by upgrading military wonders that increase production speed (Needles, Flying Academy, Victory Springs). What happens in late chapter is you will reach a point where the troop increase from unlocking techs will outstrip the rate that you can make them by upgrading your military buildings from techs.

There are also military wonders that buff up your troop's ability to fight (Heroes Forge, Dragon Abbey, Victory Springs, Needles, Toads). If they are stronger, it helps them win the fight in less rounds (you can see this effect manual fighting), which can help save you troops as well since they don't have to take more rounds of beatings. Now if the ratio is preset, it means you go to battle against the same ratio but with more buffing. For example (making up numbers), without wonder upgrades at a certain encounter, it might be 100 vs 300. After unlocking some techs and upgrading wonders, you might see 200 vs 600. Hence, you're still fighting 1:3 ratio, but now with maybe 5% buffing. Then the question is, well is a small increase to say 6% buffing with size increase to 300 vs 900 adequate or worthwhile? If you manage to max it out, I think you get a 40% buff though. Paired with a fed Fire Phoenix, that's a significant advantage.

 

[Far Reach]

Oh the noes... one mustn't answer a question about a mathematical computation with "theoretical computations"...

I understand the sentiment, but here is a challenge for you. It may be possible to calculate the various effects on troops produced/consumed, but how do you incorporate the benefit of unit upgrades to produce a mathematical calculation (of the effect on tourney/spire capability of progressing) ? Sometimes people ignore awkward details in their "theoretical computations" and get unreliable answers as a result.

Essentially the ratio of troops is preset for everyone at the same point in the Spire and Tourney province. Things like wonders and unlocking mandatory techs increase stack size brought to battle and cost of catering. Increase in stack size results in more dead troops so you have to be able to replenish your stocks in time, week to week. You counter this with things like upgrading your barracks, merc camp, and training ground. However, most chapters only allow you to upgrade one of these buildings (some chapters 2). You can further offset the troop increase from the formula by upgrading military wonders that increase production speed (Needles, Flying Academy, Victory Springs). What happens in late chapter is you will reach a point where the troop increase from unlocking techs will outstrip the rate that you can make them by upgrading your military buildings from techs.

I suspect that you are extrapolating from your current chapter and assuming that all later chapters work the same. That isn't the case. Indeed for C18 and particularly for C19 I suspect that the devs have deliberately boosted troop production buildings to ensure that progression is worthwhile. In chapter 19 for example we get increases in training speed of 25% for all three troop production buildings. This demonstrably outstrips the tech cost.

But of all the variables, wonders "hurt" you the least.

I agree that fighting wonders (such as the ones you suggest) produce a net benefit. Some other AWs are a net cost though. I have a lot of AW levels and they are a major disadvantage in the Tournament and Spire. (This is unusual though, and I concur that developing well chosen AWs is usually worthwhile.)

 

[Sir Derf]

Hey, I agree, bad math is bad. I mean, have you read my past posts...

That said, that some people will do incomplete analysis is not an argument against doing any analysis.

I'm not well-versed in the math involved in Elvenar troop training and fighting, and not inclined to dig deeper.

Instead, I'll respond with a more general question back: Do you think that your request for a mathematical computation is impossible? Is the implementation of the game, a programmed algorithm of mathematical computations with RNG elements, unknowable?

 

[Silly Bubbles]

But of all the variables, wonders "hurt" you the least. The increase is the smallest. Unlocking mandatory techs is the biggest ouchie factor for most people.

Essentially the ratio of troops is preset for everyone at the same point in the Spire and Tourney province. Things like wonders and unlocking mandatory techs increase stack size brought to battle and cost of catering. Increase in stack size results in more dead troops so you have to be able to replenish your stocks in time, week to week. You counter this with things like upgrading your barracks, merc camp, and training ground. However, most chapters only allow you to upgrade one of these buildings (some chapters 2). You can further offset the troop increase from the formula by upgrading military wonders that increase production speed (Needles, Flying Academy, Victory Springs). What happens in late chapter is you will reach a point where the troop increase from unlocking techs will outstrip the rate that you can make them by upgrading your military buildings from techs.

There are also military wonders that buff up your troop's ability to fight (Heroes Forge, Dragon Abbey, Victory Springs, Needles, Toads). If they are stronger, it helps them win the fight in less rounds (you can see this effect manual fighting), which can help save you troops as well since they don't have to take more rounds of beatings. Now if the ratio is preset, it means you go to battle against the same ratio but with more buffing. For example (making up numbers), without wonder upgrades at a certain encounter, it might be 100 vs 300. After unlocking some techs and upgrading wonders, you might see 200 vs 600. Hence, you're still fighting 1:3 ratio, but now with maybe 5% buffing. Then the question is, well is a small increase to say 6% buffing with size increase to 300 vs 900 adequate or worthwhile? If you manage to max it out, I think you get a 40% buff though. Paired with a fed Fire Phoenix, that's a significant advantage.

Yes, the increase per AW upgrade is the smallest but the difference between players is the largest. Most of the players at my level have twice as many upgrades than I do and some of them more than three times. The difference isn't as big with expansions or research tree. This can create quite a bit of advantage/disadvantage.

Also, I would make sure that when players upgrade a lot of AWs, they don't intend to cater much. Military wonders are obviously great for fighting but pretty well eliminate chances of catering Spire to the top regularly.