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DeletedUser
Guest
Well I'm going to be having fun then. I'm in early dwarves and currently working around ring 10, scouting takes just over a day. I'll be needing orcs for negotiations before I've even got a dwarven portal. So apparently the expansions in the tech tree and a few less province earned expansions should be enough. How feasible is it for a player to get to the end of Orcs & Goblins without buying any expansions?
DeletedUser1829
Guest
Very easy, you don't need diamonds at all to play and you can build comfortably enough with expansions earned close to chest requirements (where they expect you to be). You may need to rethink how you have organised your town, often I find people overbuild and then struggle to reassess their strategy.
you will definitely have losses when fighting now and they have explained that if you like to fight a lot you should do tournaments while waiting to progress in provinces. Note tournament fights now also see the enemy having up to 8 squads in some fights.
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DeletedUser2162
Guest
Any sight on a date for this upgrade yet? I now have one of the quests to train troops and if I'm losing tomorrow what I've built today, that's not going to make me really happy.
DeletedUser643
Guest
I hope never .... they have so far only done phase 1 on beta and everybody is complaining on forums
DeletedUser1829
Guest
You won't lose the troops you have built. The stats and their relative value changes but if you have 1000 troops today it will still be 1000 troops tomorrow. What changes is those 1000 troops might be 20 squads today and only 5 tomorrow.
There will be 3 stages to the new system so the first stage is on beta now, we will have to wait for the next 2 stages.
DeletedUser
Guest
So after browsing the beta forum I have come to the following conclusions:
Like the orc requirement for negotiation, the battle system has been redesigned to prevent people from advancing and acquiring provinces via the world map, allegedly because people advance too fast and their cities are too big. However, parallel to this, you can purchase the expansions and more buildings are constantly being added. After these updates alone, we will need to build 2 more military buildings if we want to fight.
The moral of the story is: everyone is being punished. The most advanced players can now forget about fighting as it's apparently impossible.
Those of us who play a lot but were not in a rush to reach the end of tech (we exist) and who because we couldn't expand via negotiation anymore have been struggling to fight our way along will now not be able to fight anymore either. We are well advised to rush our way into orcs so we at least have a light at the end of the tunnel as regards negotiation and we should be attempting to reach that light before the next restriction is implemented - no doubt needing some resource from the next guest race to negotiate. Who knows, we might have even struggled our way through enough fights to be insta-restricted again as soon as the next race is implemented
And all this clumsy ridiculousness allegedly because people advance faster than the devs planned. Except that if they really wanted to stop people advancing, it's pretty easy to just grey out provinces beyond a certain fixed point. And above all, if people are really expected not to advance beyond a certain point, it should not be possible to do so by paying either. This is why one shouldn't release games that are not even remotely thought out from beta. That's what beta is for ... But ofc you can make more money this way, and all these changes that are being made - regardless of what is said - are made to make money. Possibly devs created a concept and once it became clear it was popular, the marketing team descended and made their demands as regards making the game a gold mine. But that is mere speculation. The players meanwhile are considered to be expendable entities. Get rid of the ones that were used to the old system and replace them with new players that never knew any other situation. Meanwhile, annoy the older bickerers enough that they finally dissipate in exasperation.
And yes, sure, of course we can delete half our towns and plummet in the rankings, then look for new fellowships so as not to drag our current ones down. Inno wouldn't want anyone in the top 1 k players who doesn't cough up cash at least on a monthly basis after all.
- The battle system is not being changed to make it easier. It will be both more complicated AND harder, making it the opposite of easier by any measure.
- It is, in fact, a BAD idea to stop training troops. A more prudent approach would be to train *and use* as many as possible before this next straitjacket hits us.
Like the orc requirement for negotiation, the battle system has been redesigned to prevent people from advancing and acquiring provinces via the world map, allegedly because people advance too fast and their cities are too big. However, parallel to this, you can purchase the expansions and more buildings are constantly being added. After these updates alone, we will need to build 2 more military buildings if we want to fight.
The moral of the story is: everyone is being punished. The most advanced players can now forget about fighting as it's apparently impossible.
Those of us who play a lot but were not in a rush to reach the end of tech (we exist) and who because we couldn't expand via negotiation anymore have been struggling to fight our way along will now not be able to fight anymore either. We are well advised to rush our way into orcs so we at least have a light at the end of the tunnel as regards negotiation and we should be attempting to reach that light before the next restriction is implemented - no doubt needing some resource from the next guest race to negotiate. Who knows, we might have even struggled our way through enough fights to be insta-restricted again as soon as the next race is implemented
And all this clumsy ridiculousness allegedly because people advance faster than the devs planned. Except that if they really wanted to stop people advancing, it's pretty easy to just grey out provinces beyond a certain fixed point. And above all, if people are really expected not to advance beyond a certain point, it should not be possible to do so by paying either. This is why one shouldn't release games that are not even remotely thought out from beta. That's what beta is for ... But ofc you can make more money this way, and all these changes that are being made - regardless of what is said - are made to make money. Possibly devs created a concept and once it became clear it was popular, the marketing team descended and made their demands as regards making the game a gold mine. But that is mere speculation. The players meanwhile are considered to be expendable entities. Get rid of the ones that were used to the old system and replace them with new players that never knew any other situation. Meanwhile, annoy the older bickerers enough that they finally dissipate in exasperation.
And yes, sure, of course we can delete half our towns and plummet in the rankings, then look for new fellowships so as not to drag our current ones down. Inno wouldn't want anyone in the top 1 k players who doesn't cough up cash at least on a monthly basis after all.
DeletedUser1996
Guest
So after browsing the beta forum I have come to the following conclusions:
- The battle system is not being changed to make it easier. It will be both more complicated AND harder, making it the opposite of easier by any measure.
- It is, in fact, a BAD idea to stop training troops. A more prudent approach would be to train *and use* as many as possible before this next straitjacket hits us.
Like the orc requirement for negotiation, the battle system has been redesigned to prevent people from advancing and acquiring provinces via the world map, allegedly because people advance too fast and their cities are too big. However, parallel to this, you can purchase the expansions and more buildings are constantly being added. After these updates alone, we will need to build 2 more military buildings if we want to fight.
The moral of the story is: everyone is being punished. The most advanced players can now forget about fighting as it's apparently impossible.
Those of us who play a lot but were not in a rush to reach the end of tech (we exist) and who because we couldn't expand via negotiation anymore have been struggling to fight our way along will now not be able to fight anymore either. We are well advised to rush our way into orcs so we at least have a light at the end of the tunnel as regards negotiation and we should be attempting to reach that light before the next restriction is implemented - no doubt needing some resource from the next guest race to negotiate. Who knows, we might have even struggled our way through enough fights to be insta-restricted again as soon as the next race is implemented
And all this clumsy ridiculousness allegedly because people advance faster than the devs planned. Except that if they really wanted to stop people advancing, it's pretty easy to just grey out provinces beyond a certain fixed point. And above all, if people are really expected not to advance beyond a certain point, it should not be possible to do so by paying either. This is why one shouldn't release games that are not even remotely thought out from beta. That's what beta is for ... But ofc you can make more money this way, and all these changes that are being made - regardless of what is said - are made to make money. Possibly devs created a concept and once it became clear it was popular, the marketing team descended and made their demands as regards making the game a gold mine. But that is mere speculation. The players meanwhile are considered to be expendable entities. Get rid of the ones that were used to the old system and replace them with new players that never knew any other situation. Meanwhile, annoy the older bickerers enough that they finally dissipate in exasperation.
And yes, sure, of course we can delete half our towns and plummet in the rankings, then look for new fellowships so as not to drag our current ones down. Inno wouldn't want anyone in the top 1 k players who doesn't cough up cash at least on a monthly basis after all.
I can confirm this. The best you can do now, especially if you are an advanced player and you like to fight on the map, is make sure you finish all the provinces you have opened right now, because once the update is live, all those fights will simply be impossible to win. Not hard, but simply impossible.
In beta our units were nerfed a lot, whilst the enemy units are stronger than ever.
Also, use up your troops, because when the change came I lost 4 in each 5 units I had, so you will be left with 1/5 of the troops only.
Also, don't believe what they are telling you regarding you being able to train the same units afterwards as now, because the armories won't be adjusted enough, so 3 armories at level 23 will only give you 5h of training max. The bulwark is in fact getting even better, but on the other hand, the needles has lost its value, as you will be training units so fast that you won't be able to keep your barracks going even overnight.
Of course it doesn't matter that you are training them faster, because the squads are bigger and require more units, and because your losses will be massive, even in tournaments.
Tournaments have been changed so that the enemies has more squads than you, just like in the provinces, so the fights are much harder. So harder in fact that most players who attempted to fight lvl 5 and lvl 6 provinces in the tournaments couldn't win most fights in provinces as close to your city as province 3.
And if you are used to using auto-battle, forget it, you probably won't make it beyond level 2 or 3, and that with massive losses.
So no, this update won't make battling any easier, or simpler, unless you count being impossible to win, simple.
Deleted User - 13667
Guest
Seems like the sentiment is much worse than assumed. But given the track record here, I think the battles ahead may be just made plain ridiculous.
DeletedUser1829
Guest
There will always be a level of re-learning and upset at such a change. If however battles are as bad as they first appear it will be changed by the devs but that will take time for them to see the stats of screeching halt on battles and then planning on how to fix it, etc., etc.
Bottom line is you need to have a lot of patience.
Bottom line is you need to have a lot of patience.
DeletedUser
Guest
It is one of the drawbacks to the method Innogames used in releasing Elvenar but it is common in the industry these days. Release a partial game to beta to get some paying customers and then use those funds to pay for the continuing development of the game. This is part of the reason that they keep going back and adding stuff to the earlier parts of the games to complete their plan ( Magic Academy, Tournaments, Early Chapter Ancient Wonders, Minimum Finished Provinces To Unlock Chests for next Chapters's Advanced Scouts, ..... )
If you look at things from the perspective of a new player, you can make some sense of the plan the have for the progression of the game. I think the changes they are making to the battle system kinda feed into this plan. The new system will basically restrict you from clearing too may ( by Inno standards ) provinces by making it super hard to go too far ahead of your chapters tech and basically keeping the number of provinces available to most players between the minimum required to open the next chapter and the number that you can fight / cater comfortably. Basically they want to keep the non-paying players in a certain number range of expansions per chapter.
Part of the reason you hear a lot of screaming from beta about this is that when people started playing in beta the development was slow enough that you ran into roadblocks where there were no additional things to research and all you really had to do was fight or cater provinces to get nearer to trade partners and build more buildings. Then the Dwarves were added, but it did not take long to finish and then more fighting and catering. New stuff added and had to go back and do new research for Magic Academy and then more fighting / catering. Now beta players have more than 300 provinces explored and the fights are super tough because they are well beyond the level of the design for the Orc Chapter.
Add to that all those provinces that were explored before Ancient Wonders that you never got Rune Shards. I quit beta and started a brand new city here, basically for the rune shards and to play the game from the beginning with all the changes. I've found a lot of the issues that caused a big hubub on beta really are not much of an issue for someone starting from the beginning and playing through somewhat according to design. I'm still probably a little ahead of the number of provinces that they are probably pushing for as I have quite a few more lined up at 7/8 waiting to unlock the next ancient wonder tech in hopes of getting some of those rune shards. I have enough for opening all the wonders I currently have the tech for.
I'm sure the $$$$$'s are a big reason for the design of the game as far as making it hard to get way ahead of the number of expansions they are kind of forcing players into. In my mind the only really useful use of diamonds are for builders 3, 4, and 5 and bought expansions as they are the only diamond purchases that hold their value throughout the game.
I guess I'll see how hard the fights are for someone who is near where the game is designed for me to be once the changes arrive. Also the bribe costs as I'm guessing from their current designs they may get really expensive if you get to far ahead.
If you look at things from the perspective of a new player, you can make some sense of the plan the have for the progression of the game. I think the changes they are making to the battle system kinda feed into this plan. The new system will basically restrict you from clearing too may ( by Inno standards ) provinces by making it super hard to go too far ahead of your chapters tech and basically keeping the number of provinces available to most players between the minimum required to open the next chapter and the number that you can fight / cater comfortably. Basically they want to keep the non-paying players in a certain number range of expansions per chapter.
Part of the reason you hear a lot of screaming from beta about this is that when people started playing in beta the development was slow enough that you ran into roadblocks where there were no additional things to research and all you really had to do was fight or cater provinces to get nearer to trade partners and build more buildings. Then the Dwarves were added, but it did not take long to finish and then more fighting and catering. New stuff added and had to go back and do new research for Magic Academy and then more fighting / catering. Now beta players have more than 300 provinces explored and the fights are super tough because they are well beyond the level of the design for the Orc Chapter.
Add to that all those provinces that were explored before Ancient Wonders that you never got Rune Shards. I quit beta and started a brand new city here, basically for the rune shards and to play the game from the beginning with all the changes. I've found a lot of the issues that caused a big hubub on beta really are not much of an issue for someone starting from the beginning and playing through somewhat according to design. I'm still probably a little ahead of the number of provinces that they are probably pushing for as I have quite a few more lined up at 7/8 waiting to unlock the next ancient wonder tech in hopes of getting some of those rune shards. I have enough for opening all the wonders I currently have the tech for.
I'm sure the $$$$$'s are a big reason for the design of the game as far as making it hard to get way ahead of the number of expansions they are kind of forcing players into. In my mind the only really useful use of diamonds are for builders 3, 4, and 5 and bought expansions as they are the only diamond purchases that hold their value throughout the game.
I guess I'll see how hard the fights are for someone who is near where the game is designed for me to be once the changes arrive. Also the bribe costs as I'm guessing from their current designs they may get really expensive if you get to far ahead.
DeletedUser1829
Guest
This is very much the case and the unlock for the race after orcs is expected to be 190 (spotted in last inno episode) So it will be a long time before this update and future tech tree updates align for those players. Anyone on a live server that is well ahead will face that same wait time for things to align.
DeletedUser
Guest
Lots of players on the live servers are in the same situation you describe @Arjavh Personally I don't think it's a big deal to make changes - even radical ones - to a game in beta. But once it has been released to live servers and people have spent huge amounts of money and time, it comes across to me as a chaotic mess caused by greed and stinks of disrespect towards the people financing the game, which also includes people who don't pay anything because games do also depend upon being active for their success. The impression I get of Elvenar is that player retention is low on the list of priorities and they just want people to quit and be replaced by newer players on a regular basis. Starting the game may be easy for you now, but give it a year
DeletedUser
Guest
Yup, totally agree. People who started the 'live' servers early on after their release are in a very similar situation to those who started beta when that was the only server.
Starting the game may be easy for you now, but give it a year
I'm taking my time, so should not run out of things to do that fast. I've seen everything through the Fairies before I quit on beta, so no rushing ahead. I'm going to sit and build up my wonders for a while before even bothering to open the Dwarf chapter, even if it blows a couple of months. Bigger worry is if the game will go like the beta server and become a ghost town.
DeletedUser
Guest
I did that. Didn't fancy being stuck at the end of tech twiddling my thumbs. Result is that I got stuck at the beginning of fairies unable to get any provinces from the map via negotiation and severely strapped for space, wishing I'd rushed ahead like everyone else since. Now I have to either move at a snail's pace or cave in and spend money which tbh under the circumstances, I'm very unwilling to do ;P Maybe the snail palaces were meant as a harbinger of things to come
DeletedUser1829
Guest
To me it is clear we are not meant to be rushing to the end of the tech tree but doing things like buildings wonders as well which still builds our town but slows down the tech tree rush. I would expect player retention to be very low for those sitting at the end of the tree waiting for the next upgrade. Not to mention what a waste of a wonder to sit at level 1 for several tech eras.
I have some towns working on several wonders at a lower tech era and have not found any issues with space (yet) in fact the gold abyss is awesome for helping the space issue.
I have some towns working on several wonders at a lower tech era and have not found any issues with space (yet) in fact the gold abyss is awesome for helping the space issue.
DeletedUser
Guest
If we are not supposed to rush to the end of the tech it should not be possible, neither for free nor players nor for those who pay for it. There should also be sufficient other things for people to do.
DeletedUser363
Guest
Quite right, the problem is that if you started Elvenar near the beginning even 'pottering along' gets you to the end of tech without using diamonds, also it doesn't matter how many provinces you clear, there is only a limited amount of space to place expansions with each section of tech, you cannot over grow your village as you have nowhere for the expansions to go.
DeletedUser1345
Guest
You can definitely play the game without using diamonds; I'm well into the ORCS chapter, and have never used any diamonds at all.
( I still have the original "free" diamonds, unused ).
I started almost exactly one year ago; long before the recent "orcs required for negotiations" policy was instituted - which, in my opinion, is an exceptionally obnoxious exertion of pressure on dedicated players to squeeze some money from them - but the universe being constructed as it is, I suspect said policy has COST Innogames a great deal in formerly-dedicated players who have abandoned the game...and it has surely destroyed a great deal of the goodwill many players formerly had toward the game ...and it's designers .
You'll never get into the "Top 100" without using diamonds, but of course that's of no importance.
- lighteye-elf , Earthguards mage. ( and currently #394 in the player ranking! lol )
DeletedUser2054
Guest
Are we ever going to get a release date so we know when we can expect to feel the Betas frustrations?