DeletedUser
Guest
But doesn't give me a bigger squad against the enemy which stays the same size ?
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DeletedUser
Guest
CrazyWizard
Shaman
your SS is based on a formula.
Then the enemy is your SS * % where each province the % goes up a lot in the beginning and a little after a while.
So the "tournaments and spire are the same difficulty for everyone.
What is different is the SS, and therefore the losses.
10% loss of 100 is smaller than 10% loss of 1000.
FieryArien
Necromancer
Yes, but only in world map provinces. Crazy Wizard then argues about tournament, not the world map.
Pauly7
Magus
I think I know what you're referring to, but I never pay any attention to that...
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CrazyWizard
Shaman
this whole topic is questions about tournament
questions about worl map fights are a lot easier to answer
FieryArien
Necromancer
Actually, Elivar cross-linked another thread (in this post on previous page) where you can find information: “... world map fights are easier (you bring more troops to the battle, but enemy stays the same) ...” and the wording strongly suggests that the confusion came from there. In my opinion it’s better to explain the difference than to let Elivar think the squad size upgrades don’t ever have this effect.this whole topic is questions about tournament
questions about worl map fights are a lot easier to answer
Gargon667
Mentor
So far I would say the main reason to do them were the troop instants. At least for me those were the only interesting rewards from events, both in terms of daily prizes as well as chest rewards. So an optional 50% increase in SS makes a 50% increase in event rewards. But I may be a special case.
Seems like they nerfed the instants out of events as well now? I wonder if the troops in the chests are SS based? But anyway it soon won´t be worth clicking through the events anymore anyway...
Gargon667
Mentor
@CrazyWizard already answered most, so I just want to comment on this one:
Exactly! 2* Rangers are MUCH weaker than 3* Rangers. They lack the special ability which will make them strong against non-mage units. In general i would agree that 3*LR are at least as good, sometimes better than 2* Rangers.
However in this particular fight you would most likely have done much better with 2* Rangers. For two reasons:
1. The reason for your losses is the terrain: Rangers can walk 4 steps instead of the LR 3 steps and therefore gives them a slightly bigger chance to strike first against the enemy.
2. Rangers are specialized against Mages which gives them a good defensive bonus against them. they don´t mind much getting hit my mages. While your 3*LR have no defense against mages, they depend on striking first. They can kill Mages without trouble, but if they do not strike first Mages have no problem with killing LR either, it´s only a question of who hits first wins. usually that is the LR (because of their higher initiative), but if the terrain prevents that from happening while allowing the enemy mages to strike (as most likely in your case) you are out of luck.
In general if you have a fight against 5 mages, it is very easy to win. Your LR should work (above, you only were unlucky to loose as many as you did), but 2 star rangers would be better. You can also use the cannon fodder strategy and send in dogs. In this particular fight I would have dogs expected to be intermediate: better than LR but a little worse than Rangers. Dogs also have a defensive bonus against mages and better hitpoints, so they can take the initial hit better than LR. But compared to rangers they have a less versatile range (walk+shoot = 7+1 instead of Rangers 4+4), which means they cannot hit across objects. But also their initiative is lower than Rangers and even mages. Which means Rangers get a chance to strike first, while dogs certainly don´t. Of course in this particular case it may even be an advantage to not go first, in which case dogs could be even better than Rangers? I am only explaining this in such detail to show that there are a LOT of possibilities
To really know what is going on, one needs to know 1. The SS involved (which you see at the start of the battle, your result would be much more common in province 50 than in province 5 for example) and 2. the terrain (which seems to be the case here as we know you have an early province). And on top of that (I gess to not make it too easy lol) there is a random factor in every battle... You can actually fight exactly the same fight twice and get very different results (although that is a game to play if you really have nothing else to do lol), especially if it is a close fight, winning or loosing (and having to redo the entire fight) can, very rarely, be based on that little random influence...CrazyWizard
Shaman
tho the second hit always hurts.
Let me show you some inno magic lets say your unit has a 80% damage reduction vs mages.
Now the enemy has a 40 defence reduction powe.
now lets do some inno magic and it becomes something like this: (It's been many years since they posted that on the beta forums so I have to do it from head so it could be slightly wrong but you get the idea)
180*0.6= 108
This means your 80% damage reduction has been changed to 8% damage reduction
This is why that power is so stupidly powerfull. and why on the first hit you loose a tiny bit of units as 80% is reduced and then on the 2nd / 3rd hit you loose a amassive amount of units. that entire defence is just pretty much gone.
In the next chapter they will introduce 4* units when those hit the game and if like in the past the also put them into the tournaments you get enemies with 90% reduction. without using units with that power you will not stand a chance.
Especially with all those units mixed up, if you have no ability to destroy that units defence you will not stand a chance even agains 1 unit.
remember from 80-90% defence is reducing the losses in half.
Let me show you some inno magic lets say your unit has a 80% damage reduction vs mages.
Now the enemy has a 40 defence reduction powe.
now lets do some inno magic and it becomes something like this: (It's been many years since they posted that on the beta forums so I have to do it from head so it could be slightly wrong but you get the idea)
180*0.6= 108
This means your 80% damage reduction has been changed to 8% damage reduction
This is why that power is so stupidly powerfull. and why on the first hit you loose a tiny bit of units as 80% is reduced and then on the 2nd / 3rd hit you loose a amassive amount of units. that entire defence is just pretty much gone.
In the next chapter they will introduce 4* units when those hit the game and if like in the past the also put them into the tournaments you get enemies with 90% reduction. without using units with that power you will not stand a chance.
Especially with all those units mixed up, if you have no ability to destroy that units defence you will not stand a chance even agains 1 unit.
remember from 80-90% defence is reducing the losses in half.
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DeletedUser
Guest
Thank you all again
Sorry for the confusion about the SS, i wasn't clear on that.
But just get crystal about it; When i do SS research and make my squad bigger, i have absolutely no basic gain from that in tournaments, it only comes from using boosters ?
I have just read and watched the accompanying video on auto fighting the scrolls tournament @MinMax Gamer has made: https://minmaxgame.com/elvenar-tournament-tutorial-2020-scrolls/ This is really helpful. He talks about weakness and strength among the troops and opposing each other
So on that behalf i changed to produce Granite Golem, Blossom Princess and Ghastly Banshee. I can in no way produce Orc Strategist at the moment. My Orcs are crucial elsewhere. And it'll be months before i can produce a 3* Ranger. But i learn a lot from reading and watching @MinMax Gamer 's videos, so a BIG thank you to him/you
And this actually also showed me where Toads come into play and where it will help me
Also, it looked quite easy to do 25 provinces 5 rounds and get the most KP's out of it. And those KP's a very useful for upgrading my AW's now ;-)
Sorry for the confusion about the SS, i wasn't clear on that.
But just get crystal about it; When i do SS research and make my squad bigger, i have absolutely no basic gain from that in tournaments, it only comes from using boosters ?
I have just read and watched the accompanying video on auto fighting the scrolls tournament @MinMax Gamer has made: https://minmaxgame.com/elvenar-tournament-tutorial-2020-scrolls/ This is really helpful. He talks about weakness and strength among the troops and opposing each other
So on that behalf i changed to produce Granite Golem, Blossom Princess and Ghastly Banshee. I can in no way produce Orc Strategist at the moment. My Orcs are crucial elsewhere. And it'll be months before i can produce a 3* Ranger. But i learn a lot from reading and watching @MinMax Gamer 's videos, so a BIG thank you to him/you
And this actually also showed me where Toads come into play and where it will help me
Also, it looked quite easy to do 25 provinces 5 rounds and get the most KP's out of it. And those KP's a very useful for upgrading my AW's now ;-)
Pauly7
Magus
Correct. There is no link between the tournament squad size and the squad size it shows you in the barracks. The latter only tells you what the squad size will be when you're fighting province encounters.
Other than the other benefits mentioned, another good reason for completing your optional SS researches is that the higher your SS gets, the more powerful your Dwarven Bulwark gets.
DeletedUser
Guest
Thank you @Pauly7
I also found the initial announcement from Inno about the changes. It has a nice bonus for me right now, those pesky Orcs i can't produce enough of anyway. They have been removed as always appearing
I also found the initial announcement from Inno about the changes. It has a nice bonus for me right now, those pesky Orcs i can't produce enough of anyway. They have been removed as always appearing
Gargon667
Mentor
I do agree with you that a -40% defense special ability ( i believe that is what you are talking about?) is extremely powerful.
But I don´t understand your calculation there. what is the 180? the 0.6 I understand.
Lets say we have a unit attack me. That unit is supposed to do 100 damage, but I have a 80% defense against that unit.
It means on the first hit the enemy will deal 20 damage (80% reduction from 100 leaves 20), then the special ability is added and assume that makes the second hit deal 60 damage (my 80% defense bonus will be reduced by 40% to 40%, so the damage is 100*0.6=60)
CrazyWizard
Shaman
Thats logical and thats pretty much how it worked back in the day when we started to play.
The issue was some stacking and they wanted to make it impossible to get 100% bonus or whatever.
The issue was for example sorceres, who had a 60% defence then did a 40% debuff and become immortal vs enemy. somthign like that so they redisigned the battle system and came up with inno magic math.
Let mee see if I can find it but it will be most likely looking trough several hundred if not thousand of posts from around that time.
CrazyWizard
Shaman
Yes someone posted a link at page 41 to the correct topic / bug report!
yay.
I was aready searching for a while when I made the previous post, it's not the explanation from the devs but it was confirmed not to be a bug.
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/bonuses-from-abilities-are-multiplied-wrongly.6584/
At least what I wrote was correct.
they use a slighty different way to calculate it but in essence it's the same.
I remember them explaining it like this way.
To calculate damage reduction they made it like this:
your base damage is 100
Then DR is added as a defence modifier = 180
Then a debuff is applied 180*0.6 = 108 which means 8% damage reduction stays.
In the above link they get the same result with the same math from a slightly different angle that might explain it better. but my version is easier to remember
But this magic math is why debuffs are so insanely powerfull a 40% debuff aint a 40% debuff but a much more massive one was it doesnt only debuff the base but also debuffs the DR.
This also explains why cannoneers are a joke on there first hit, and very painfull when a second cannoneer fires his shot. it does not make sense than a 30% debuff creates 4-5 times more casualties but with this magic it's all explained. this is why mortars are useless and 3* frogs where a revelation at that time. it's all about the correct debuff.
because if you have 80% defence vs heavy range and it does 1000 damage only 200 sticks and kills lets say 50 units.
Then inno magic happens 180*0.7 = 26% this means 740 damage is done and this kills 185 units 3.5 times as much.
off course the same magic happens but attack debuffs but thats just not as powerfull as. at best it's annoying when it happens to your units.
yay.
I was aready searching for a while when I made the previous post, it's not the explanation from the devs but it was confirmed not to be a bug.
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/bonuses-from-abilities-are-multiplied-wrongly.6584/
At least what I wrote was correct.
they use a slighty different way to calculate it but in essence it's the same.
I remember them explaining it like this way.
To calculate damage reduction they made it like this:
your base damage is 100
Then DR is added as a defence modifier = 180
Then a debuff is applied 180*0.6 = 108 which means 8% damage reduction stays.
In the above link they get the same result with the same math from a slightly different angle that might explain it better. but my version is easier to remember
But this magic math is why debuffs are so insanely powerfull a 40% debuff aint a 40% debuff but a much more massive one was it doesnt only debuff the base but also debuffs the DR.
This also explains why cannoneers are a joke on there first hit, and very painfull when a second cannoneer fires his shot. it does not make sense than a 30% debuff creates 4-5 times more casualties but with this magic it's all explained. this is why mortars are useless and 3* frogs where a revelation at that time. it's all about the correct debuff.
because if you have 80% defence vs heavy range and it does 1000 damage only 200 sticks and kills lets say 50 units.
Then inno magic happens 180*0.7 = 26% this means 740 damage is done and this kills 185 units 3.5 times as much.
off course the same magic happens but attack debuffs but thats just not as powerfull as. at best it's annoying when it happens to your units.
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DeletedUser
Guest
Ohh, now i see why fighting is not so straight forward
Looking at Blossom Princess. She has:
Blossom Winds - Opponent defence -30%
Flower Power - Opponent attack -20%
All works for 3 rounds of fighting. That's something to take into account fighting the Spire.
EDIT: Strike Back - Bigger number is better ?
EDIT 2: And also why i need all kinds of troops
Hmm, need to make a bigger sheet for this ;-)
Looking at Blossom Princess. She has:
Blossom Winds - Opponent defence -30%
Flower Power - Opponent attack -20%
All works for 3 rounds of fighting. That's something to take into account fighting the Spire.
EDIT: Strike Back - Bigger number is better ?
EDIT 2: And also why i need all kinds of troops
Hmm, need to make a bigger sheet for this ;-)
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CrazyWizard
Shaman
Ohh, now i see why fighting is not so straight forward
Looking at Blossom Princess. She has:
Blossom Winds - Opponent defence -30%
Flower Power - Opponent attack -20%
All works for 3 rounds of fighting. That's something to take into account fighting the Spire.
EDIT: Strike Back - Bigger number is better ?
EDIT 2: And also why i need all kinds of troops
Hmm, need to make a bigger sheet for this ;-)
Strikeback with more than 1 is only cerberus / hellhound. I kinda ignore it since how often to the same non ranged unit hit a cerberus in the same round?
strikeback only works if at the return attack your attacker is in your range.
and when was the last time you saw an attacker in direct contact with the enemy. only light melee and some heavy melee units do.
So you need multple of those enemies and they all need to attack that units in the same round.
It's something nice on paper useless to have. if the enemy really is attacking your dog with 3 direct melee units you are in more than a little bit of trouble.
Gargon667
Mentor
Yes someone posted a link at page 41 to the correct topic / bug report!
yay.
I was aready searching for a while when I made the previous post, it's not the explanation from the devs but it was confirmed not to be a bug.
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/bonuses-from-abilities-are-multiplied-wrongly.6584/
At least what I wrote was correct.
they use a slighty different way to calculate it but in essence it's the same.
I remember them explaining it like this way.
To calculate damage reduction they made it like this:
your base damage is 100
Then DR is added as a defence modifier = 180
Then a debuff is applied 180*0.6 = 108 which means 8% damage reduction stays.
In the above link they get the same result with the same math from a slightly different angle that might explain it better. but my version is easier to remember
But this magic math is why debuffs are so insanely powerfull a 40% debuff aint a 40% debuff but a much more massive one was it doesnt only debuff the base but also debuffs the DR.
This also explains why cannoneers are a joke on there first hit, and very painfull when a second cannoneer fires his shot. it does not make sense than a 30% debuff creates 4-5 times more casualties but with this magic it's all explained. this is why mortars are useless and 3* frogs where a revelation at that time. it's all about the correct debuff.
because if you have 80% defence vs heavy range and it does 1000 damage only 200 sticks and kills lets say 50 units.
Then inno magic happens 180*0.7 = 26% this means 740 damage is done and this kills 185 units 3.5 times as much.
off course the same magic happens but attack debuffs but thats just not as powerfull as. at best it's annoying when it happens to your units.
Thanks for the link @CrazyWizard!
I still have no clue what these people are talking about lol. The only thing I can see is people calculating a few things that produce expected results, which is a rather good sign it is true (well was true 4 or 5 years ago).
But why do they keep talking about a 100% base damage reduction? Nobody has that and if they did, nobody would ever get any damage whatsoever before debuffs??? The base damage reduction is 0% and then you add to that or substract from it.
I can understand a base damage of 100% (that is what you say in your example) but then you can´t add 80% if it is a damage reduction. You would have to substract it. You would reduce the damage from 100% to 20%. not increase it to 180%?
I wonder if this all still supposedly works like that magic math...
CrazyWizard
Shaman
IT's more a defence thing. if you have more than 100 defence you have DR, if you have less then 100 defence you got a weakness.
so 80% dr is not added by itself but as 80 defence.
the defence modifier then is added to the defence
So a 80% dr has a 180 defence vs unit X
So then the damage modifier is applied to that defence.
180*0.6*108 leaving 8 above 100 defence and therefore a 8% DR.
It still works that way, there hasnt been change tot the combat system in years.
The funny part is the combat system was overhauled to make flying units possible (drone rider/blossom mages)
We had to wait almost a year after the fairy chapter for those units to be released, and you can pretty much guess what happened to the flying part.
Even after the overhaul of the combat code, they still could not make it work.
How bad is that? so I do not expect them to ever touch that code again, because of you rewrite it from scratch and still are unable to do what you started it for....
so 80% dr is not added by itself but as 80 defence.
the defence modifier then is added to the defence
So a 80% dr has a 180 defence vs unit X
So then the damage modifier is applied to that defence.
180*0.6*108 leaving 8 above 100 defence and therefore a 8% DR.
It still works that way, there hasnt been change tot the combat system in years.
The funny part is the combat system was overhauled to make flying units possible (drone rider/blossom mages)
We had to wait almost a year after the fairy chapter for those units to be released, and you can pretty much guess what happened to the flying part.
Even after the overhaul of the combat code, they still could not make it work.
How bad is that? so I do not expect them to ever touch that code again, because of you rewrite it from scratch and still are unable to do what you started it for....