Question Barracks of Mercs troops ?

[Pauly7]

I'm happy to hear that Training Grounds can be "excused" ;-) Then there's fewer troops to concentrate on and to know And i don'tneed to think about VS either- win-win

Personally I would still have the Training Grounds, but for the most part just leave it training the dogs. You might as well have bonus troops that you can waste, even if they aren't very good. Sometimes it's worth training some Dryads too, which you can use in the same way, especially when you start using ELR buildings. I wouldn't bother with VS though.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Thank you @CrazyWizard and @Pauly7

Now we're getting somewhere

If i here you right, then LM are of no use ?

But which will then as, and more, useful instead ?

I'm happy to hear that Training Grounds can be "excused" ;-) Then there's fewer troops to concentrate on and to know And i don'tneed to think about VS either- win-win

But i would then have to upgrade heavily on the production size capabilities. Armories only level 23 at the moment, but 5 of them. I think they can go to level 30 or so.

And yes, i have tried those mixed battle; They don't end well most of the time :-O

But will look into them later regarding manual. But for now i just cater them. Unless a more superior troop can be used. I have every upgrade of military, other than squad, up till chapter 15. Sonly a few is not 3*

What is weakness exactly and how does it compare ?

Very limited use, but especially dogs have "usefullness"
When everything else just sucks balls thants when dogs can shine, and yes they take "heavy losses" but they can win that battle.

Making axe barbarians of sword dancers is fruitless, but "free" ones as long as it wins the a battle even at a 99% loss it's a win.
But when you need to choose which ones you have to make, it's the lowest hanging fruit as it looses battles the easiest.

LM lacks both bulk and first strike capabilities. treants have at least bulk witch makes it a little bit easier to survive.

Heavy ranged units are very weak vs mages, it really cripples them and even 1 mage is often problematic, on the other hand golems / frog princes can deal reasonably well with ork generals and knight (swamp monster is a little bit more resilliant)

So if you oppose 2 steinlings 1 ork general, 1 thief and 1 mistwalker golems would do well.
Its neutral vs the steinlings, it can handle 1 orc general, its strong vs thief and strong vs mistwalker.

There is no optimal unit vs this opposition so you have to make compromises where it's possible.
Blossom mages could also work, but will require a dryad as a decoy for the mistwalker. on auto this is a small gamble as you cannot see the map.

If that mistwalker can reach the dryad it will hit it and you have an easy time. (dryad most likely will die to the steinlings tho) but if the map is agains you and blocks the dryad from being hit then the mistwalker will attack and kill a blossom unit. and then the steinlings will go after your dryad and you lost 2 units on the first turn. so I would prefer HR in this case.

this is from an elf perspective.

I am am a human and I have no access to frog princes (3* frog) I am forced to take the hit and field 5 priests and hope for the best. (decoys dont work with priests but the are a lot stronger and have a lot more bulk than blossom mages)

 

[Gargon667]

That was actually some of my initial questions; Which troop of the same type is the better one.

LR: 3star rangers, if you don´t have those it depends on situation.
M: 3 star Blossom mages, if you don´t have those it depends on situation.
HR: All 3 can be best depending on situation
HM: None are much use, treants are probably least useless until you get 3 star Vallorians. Then it depends on situation.
LM: None are much use, dogs are the least useless.

And that again raises my question to what i need the Training Ground for. Is there any troop in there that i just need to have or can perform as well as some other ones, so that it's good to have a third place to produce from ?

They make cannon Fodder for the easiest fights, to save your more important troops for harder fights. Orc Strategists are certainly the best units in there, but they are expensive to make. I personally produce Orc Strategists, dogs and dryads. The troops are basically free, so why not make them?

So Range, as in to at what range they can hit an enemy ?

There are 2 types of range: Walking range and hitting range. usually people talk about the hitting range.
1 (all LM and some HM units) is really bad (you suffer strike back against everybody and everybody can hit you in their own turn.
2 (Paladins, Vallorians) is slightly less bad (you escape strikeback of some units, and if your extremely lucky you can hit across an obstacle and be save from a range 1 enemy)
3 (many M units) still bad, at least no melee units can strike back, but they usually still whack you in their turn.
4 (LR units) starts getting interesting as you can hit things like treants without them being able to reach you in their own turn, obstacles can get really useful as well.
5 (Blossom mages, Priests) pretty good: you can hit all HM units and some LM without them being able to strike you in their turn.
more than 5(Frogs, Cannons): Really good , Love being locked in

There is also walking range (how many steps they can walk). It is mostly important for 2 things:
- determine if you can strike in round 1: you need a minimum of 7 total (walk+shoot) range to first strike in round 1, more gives you more options and less trouble with obstacles.
- determine if the enemy can hit you when it is their turn: If your shooting range is bigger than their total range (walk+shoot) they will not be able to catch you. That is the main reason why range 4+ is so important. You can win fights without losing a single one of your own.

That's again where it annoys me; Whenever i have done that, my Rangers take bigger loses. I don't understand that.

Post a screenshot next time it happens maybe we can explain it then.
Also your Rangers are not yet 3 stars, they may not be the best in every situation. They should be in mage heavy encounters, but in melee heavy encounters 3 star Archers or Dryads can be stronger.

The last i part willing to pay my way out with more troops getting lost. I'm not into fighting, and again i'm just now learning how it all works. So as i wrote, MAYBE i will look into manual later. I might do the "look" as i have seen in some videos, where he puts just one squad and goes into manual to see how the terrain looks, and the resigns, goes back and select troops for auto fight.

Look at the manual fight as a learning tool, once you understand how it works you can go back to autofighting. I don´t think you will ever understand much about fighting if you only try figuring out how it works in autofights. There are simply too many interacting variables.
And yes previewing the territory can be very helpful too

And you now bring up the Victory Springs AW. When reading around, it's not one that many are happy about. How bad is it really ?

They are not bad, but nowadays AWs have to be VERY GOOD to help you more than they cost you in the tourney. Most AWs are most helpful if you sell them (or never build them).
The Vic Springs are intermediate. They are not bad (damage boost a rarely used unit type and increase cannon fodder production), but not good enough to make up for the costs.[/QUOTE]

 

[Gargon667]

View attachment 5222

I totally forgot to ask, do you have a version with percentages on it? Or even absolute numbers would work I guess. I was always curious as to that, but also always too lazy to do the work myself

 

[CrazyWizard]

They are not bad, but nowadays AWs have to be VERY GOOD to help you more than they cost you in the tourney. Most AWs are most helpful if you sell them (or never build them).
The Vic Springs are intermediate. They are not bad (damage boost a rarely used unit type and increase cannon fodder production), but not good enough to make up for the costs.

[/QUOTE]
thats a claim I would not make,
The claim that I would make is that your KP in either needles or flying academy is better spend than in a victory springs.

I general most combat related wonders have a net benefit, but its the non combat wonders that add a net deficit to your combat abilities.
units like dryads and dogs are still usefull, they are not the best but there not bad either

 

[Gargon667]

The claim that I would make is that your KP in either needles or flying academy is better spend than in a victory springs.

That much should be obvious.

thats a claim I would not make,

That is my opinion and I guess most valid for high scoring tourney towns. For low scoring towns I can see numbers working out differently. But low scoring tourney towns most likely are far away from the above point (better off putting KP into Needles and FA).

My reasoning is the following: I can easily get to 10k points without Vic Springs (the Vic Springs might possibly help, not sure they would though) If I want to increase my score I need to win more fights in provinces 50+. More cannon fodder is not going to win a single battle in that area. Neither is any LM unit, so the damage bonus is not going to make a difference either.
The only way I can possibly see the Vic Springs make an actual positive high quality contribution would be if I was producing Orc Strategists 24/7 and still run out of them. (Neither of which is true for me).

The main influencing factor would be the rest of the city setup. If you have an end-game town with near max expansions and finished chapter 17, every AW level weighs a lot more than for a smaller town with a fewer expansions. The curse of the multiplication.
So again Vic Springs may be beneficial when you gain access in the end of chapter 12, but the story can be very different at the end of the game...
I am just wondering where I am on that sliding scale...
But no matter what way I put it I just don´t see any tangible benefit.

 

[Pauly7]

I totally forgot to ask, do you have a version with percentages on it? Or even absolute numbers would work I guess. I was always curious as to that, but also always too lazy to do the work myself

Sorry, I don't have any numbers still to hand. It was from quite a while ago so it's probably worth a repeat of the exercise. It's a bit of a pain in the patootie to count them all though... ask me again in 9 weeks time.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

And that again raises my question to what i need the Training Ground for. Is there any troop in there that i just need to have or can perform as well as some other ones, so that it's good to have a third place to produce from ?

I didn't read everyone's responses in-between, but here's my take:

The Training grounds units are inferior units BUT they are better than nothing.
Given the choice between making 200 good units per day vs 200 good units plus 100 crappy ones, I chose the latter.

Sometimes I see a fight where Heavy ranged would be "good" and using dogs would be just "OK"
In that situation, I send dogs because even if I lose half of my dogs in that fight it's better than losing any of my good units.

Honestly, I'd be content with only training 3-star Rangers, Blossoms, and Frogs, but reducing my total troops by 2/3 wouldn't work.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Used past few hours in the tournament:

• 239 troops of Cerberus
• 174 troops of Poison Dryads
• 994 troops of pro Rangers
• 259 troops of Bud Sorceres
• 3 troops of Ghastly Banshees
• 919 troops of Blossom Princess
• 56 troops of Granite Golems
• 81 troops of Frog Pince

So you can see I use a lot of different units, as Soggy said something is better than nothing. so I used my "free" bud sorceres and put them into the fray to save some Blossom Princess.

It was a difficult tournament this week, after 30 provinces I got shocked by the losses and went to manual to save a lot of them.
I lost 1300 troops in the first 30 provinces and limited the losses for 53 provinces to 2723 for 53 by using manual combat / negotiations on the other 23 provinces.
The maps where horrible and explained why those losses where so bad

Spoiler

These are the things autocombat wont show you, and why you sometimes loose a match you should not be able to.
I won this match and 4 of the 6 rounds with 0 losses btw and 1 tiny loss. the enemies where pretty helpfull this time.

I also spend 16m goods because of battles I just refused to battle because of the potential losses.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you all again

@CrazyWizard
Yes i can see that you have used i good mix of troops. But to take the Training Grounds first; You say that dogs can be useful and in that way spare some better troops. How does the Poison Dryads come in to play ?

You also talked about in between Treants can be used, but are not as good as others. I know they are two different types, but is the Golem a better fighter to use ?

And let's keep in mind that for the moment we're only talking auto fight. Manual i will try later when i know what's what in the military department

@Gargon667
Since everyone is so happy about their Rangers, then i can only see that my problem is that mine are only 2*

I have a shot from my chapter 11 city. It's province 18, round 1. I know i will have to make a test at the level with my Sword Acrobats to see how it's different. And then as you point out, the terrain can be different, which tilts the fight. But, i barely won this one. Only mages. Squad size: 1707

EDIT: Used here is Elite Archer

Spoiler: Fight result

@SoggyShorts

Honestly, I'd be content with only training 3-star Rangers, Blossoms, and Frogs, but reducing my total troops by 2/3 wouldn't work.

My Frogs are only 2* at the moment, actually VERY long moment ;-) so i will have to do with something less capable.

So for the moment to make use of all three troop production facilities, i make Treants in Barracks, Dogs in Training Grounds and Blossom Princess in Merc Camp. And upgrading, upgrading and upgrading buildings and AW's

EDIT: In chap11 it's only Blossom Mage 2

Ohh, and Toads, why is it that i need that, i have a hard time seeing that when looking at what it does ?

 

[CrazyWizard]

Thank you all again

@CrazyWizard
Yes i can see that you have used i good mix of troops. But to take the Training Grounds first; You say that dogs can be useful and in that way spare some better troops. How does the Poison Dryads come in to play ?

You also talked about in between Treants can be used, but are not as good as others. I know they are two different types, but is the Golem a better fighter to use ?

And let's keep in mind that for the moment we're only talking auto fight. Manual i will try later when i know what's what in the military department

@Gargon667
Since everyone is so happy about their Rangers, then i can only see that my problem is that mine are only 2*

I have a shot from my chapter 11 city. It's province 18, round 1. I know i will have to make a test at the level with my Sword Acrobats to see how it's different. And then as you point out, the terrain can be different, which tilts the fight. But, i barely won this one. Only mages. Squad size: 1707

EDIT: Used here is Elite Archer

Spoiler: Fight result

View attachment 5229

@SoggyShorts

My Frogs are only 2* at the moment, actually VERY long moment ;-) so i will have to do with something less capable.

So for the moment to make use of all three troop production facilities, i make Treants in Barracks, Dogs in Training Grounds and Blossom Princess in Merc Camp. And upgrading, upgrading and upgrading buildings and AW's

EDIT: In chap11 it's only Blossom Mage 2

Ohh, and Toads, why is it that i need that, i have a hard time seeing that when looking at what it does ?

Poison dryads are still LR units and usefull, unfortunately I lost about 100 troops of them on an autoloss.
I also use them as decoys for mistalkers (advanced tactics)


Your result is obvious because of the example I gave in my last posts.
There are maps with a wall over the entire lenght of the map and only an exit at one side. this means your archer where trapped

At the same time the enemy went for the kill, they had the first strike, and some had a strike and stay out of range.
You got lucky you still won.

Map layouts are an absolute bane. and this is why it's "impossible" te learn it without manual combat.
Results simly don't make sense sometimes unless you know the map layout. without that context you can't make head or tails of it.

Toads helps a lot because it boosts the attack of your heavy ranged units. the harder they hit the less opportunity your opponent has.
Ranged units thrive with power. the stronger they shoot the better the work.

 

[Pauly7]

Since everyone is so happy about their Rangers, then i can only see that my problem is that mine are only 2*

2 star rangers are still pretty good and should mostly be better than your 3 star archers. In my smaller city I have 1* rangers and they're still, for the most part, now preferred to my 3* (in my case) bowmen.

My Frogs are only 2* at the moment, actually VERY long moment ;-) so i will have to do with something less capable.

There is a noticeable different between 2* and 3* frogs. You should get them upgraded as soon as possible. If you're in chapter 15 take note of the fact that you can get over to the frogs in a straight without first completing the majority of the other researches.

So for the moment to make use of all three troop production facilities, i make Treants in Barracks, Dogs in Training Grounds and Blossom Princess in Merc Camp. And upgrading, upgrading and upgrading buildings and AW's

You seem keen to assign one particular troop permanently to each of your training facilities, but it's better to work towards the next tournament coming. For example, in the Scrolls tournament coming up next week, I wouldn't bother training many LR troops at all (keep some, of course, because you may need them sometimes), but it's Mages and HR that you're going to need in numbers.

Ohh, and Toads, why is it that i need that, i have a hard time seeing that when looking at what it does ?

@CrazyWizard already said this, but just to emphasise - Temple of the Toads boosts the attack power of HR and this is very important because their power can't be boosted by temp combat buildings like Mages and LR can. Troops like Frogs are very vulnerable to attack so you need them to be able to hit as hard as possible whilst the enemy is still out of range.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you both

Well, there's the problem, if there's no site, as i asked before, that can give me some updated info on the tournaments, then it's a little hard to train the right troops @Pauly7 ;-)

Du you think your sheet is still usable, and just to be clear, it shows the enemies you encountered, so i need to find the counter-troops and produce them ?

What about those Orc Strategist; Is it worth crafting that building, it only gives 185 per 6 hours ?

Regarding my chapter 15, i just entered it before i killed all my buildings. So it'll be months before i get near that Frogs promotion ;-)

I have only just gotten my silk upgraded to level 24. Still miss 2 levels (2 days) on my Gems. And i haven't even started on Marble. I need to focus on getting a descent military which can win me some tournaments and cover the missing goods production

Again, i will have to wait with the manual fighting @CrazyWizard it's simply not on the menu yet ;-)

I can see that i will lose that "scouting" troop, if going in with one squad to see the layout of the terrain. But of course if i have some crap troop that is of no use at all, then it's not a problem. But it's still a problem having to produce them. My 5 Armories are at level 24 now, but Barracks only level 21, Merc 5 and TG 12. Aw's are only FA and Needles 4. So still a long way to go. Bulwark 1 and Shrooms 2.

 

[CrazyWizard]

2 star rangers are still pretty good and should mostly be better than your 3 star archers. In my smaller city I have 1* rangers and they're still, for the most part, now preferred to my 3* (in my case) bowmen.

They are not "better" they are better when the maps throws some obstacles the ranger can walk around. there on par agains mages. and weaker vs the rest.

the only difference between a 2* and a 3* unit is the special power they get there final base stats at level 2. Archer already have the very powerfull defence killing power. (which uses inno-calculations for insanity) this means outside certain edge cases a 3* archer is always better then a 2* ranger.

It's different when it comes to crossbowmen (human equivalent) which have the wrong power, there rangers are at least up to par.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Thank you both


What about those Orc Strategist; Is it worth crafting that building, it only gives 185 per 6 hours ?

The main issue with orc strategists are that they cost orcs, orcs are very hard to aquire and in high demand.
This makes it near impossible to build up a decent amount of strategist for battles.

 

[DeletedUser]

The main issue with orc strategists are that they cost orcs, orcs are very hard to aquire and in high demand.
This makes it near impossible to build up a decent amount of strategist for battles.

Do it still cost Orcs when it's an event building ?

 

[Pauly7]

Du you think your sheet is still usable, and just to be clear, it shows the enemies you encountered, so i need to find the counter-troops and produce them ?

Absolutely. It's possible that the exact proportions could differ a little if they've made any recent adjustments, and I'll update it soon, but the important thing to note is which the "primary" enemies are. There is just one in marble, steel and planks tournaments, 2 in crystal, scrolls and silk tournaments, and 3 in elixir, magic dust and gems tournaments. These are the ones to focus on and the ones to build most troops to counter.

What about those Orc Strategist; Is it worth crafting that building, it only gives 185 per 6 hours ?

Definitely worth it. If you have the space for it then those troops are 100% free. It doesn't matter how few there are. It can be frustrating if you just have one or two of them, but if you can find a decent space to spare then put in as many as you can craft and fit in. When you need the space again, delete them. Nothing lost.

The main issue with orc strategists are that they cost orcs, orcs are very hard to aquire and in high demand.

He's talking about Grounds of the Orc Strategists. These don't cost anything to produce the Orc Strats.

I can see that i will lose that "scouting" troop, if going in with one squad to see the layout of the terrain. But of course if i have some crap troop that is of no use at all, then it's not a problem.

Always scout with a dryad. If you have first initiative you can save her. If she gets sniped by a mistwalker it's no great loss.

 

[DeletedUser]

I have set the crafting of it in motion. Thank you @Pauly7

I saw a player the other day, i think it was 18 or so he had of them ;-)

I'll take a look at your sheet and the pentagram and see which troops to produce. Is there any difference on the troops closest to the enemy and the 2nd ?

 

[DeletedUser]

Just felt this fitting in here with all the other fight stuff

If you read that a few month back, you read nonsense The change happened half a year ago.

Until that point tournaments depended on your own SS, the higher SS the more enemies you faced.

Since the change tournaments are completely independent from SS.
Also the spire follows the same basic formula as the new tourney (and did so since it began a year and a half ago).

The question if Inno will undo those changes and go back to the old system you have to answer for yourself. If you ask me, there is a very close to 0% chance of that happening. The new tourneys are here to stay. Hopefully they will develop te new system further, but that´s a different question. The SS dependence of the tourneys was possibly the biggest source of complaints in the game up to the change, so Inno has nothing to gain from going back anyway. By now so many more people benefit from the new tourneys than suffer from it that the outcry will be far bigger if they change back than it is right now about how bad the new tourneys are lol. The only argument for a change back is: It´s Inno, they do not always do what makes sense...

@FieryArien summed up the pros (and the con) of SS since the change.

I personally activated all the optional SS upgrades the instant the testing phase was over and I was sure the new tourneys would stay. I have not regretted it yet
I am still debating selling a few more AWs, because Inno has hinted at making adjustments to the AW part of the formula. But the longer they take with that the more AWs I sell

https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/clarification-of-squad-upsize-please.14060/

I have up till now not done those optional squad size researches, but it looks like i should go back and do them, that it will benefit me now

 

[CrazyWizard]

Just felt this fitting in here with all the other fight stuff

https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/clarification-of-squad-upsize-please.14060/

I have up till now not done those optional squad size researches, but it looks like i should go back and do them, that it will benefit me now

it only benefits you if you have wonders that grants you free units every 3 hours as those are based on your SS,
otherwise it doesnt do much outside the world map.