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Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
InnoGames. The capacity that many players inside Elvenar have to recover hundreds of times faster the troops lost in every tournament or spire rounds with 2-3 or more brown bears in comparison with those players that haven´t multiple brown bears or have not a single one of these in their city is just abysmal, new incomers just can´t compete with players that had the luck to have played the events of "Autum zodiac in september 2019" and "Evolution of the Phoenix in May 2019". In those past events, players still had the possibility to get infinite random event quests (not limited quests like todays event format), and with this ability to (even more when there was money involved) get several Bear/Phoenix bases with lot of artifacts for these ones.

My suggestion lies in, if you can´t delete the capacity of these buildings feeding effect to be stackable, allow players that don´t have multiple bears/phoenix bases, to reach certain number LIMITED of those buildings.
For example if you could put a limit of brown bears, let´s say at 4 per city, and one player already has 3 brown bears in his city, he would only be able to get one more, in contrast a new incomer would have the capacity to craft 4 new brown bear bases in his MA.
All this OF COURSE with money involved, making some bears/phoenix bases only obtainable via premium purchases and other with normal game procedures.

But you must do something with multiple bear stackability, specially with the Brown and Polar bears, these buildings are just so imbalanced, for real.


Considerations:
- The fire Phoenix do help a lot to boost those troops that has not a proper fighting building (HR, LM HM), and only on those kind of units having multiple fire phoenix would make a remarkable difference in constrast with the players that haven´t, so having multiple fire phoenix is not that imba and OP like brown bear is.
. Of course my suggestion would not be well received by the vast majority of players that have multiple brown bears (many are friends of mine), but I´m talking about balance, and this unit, while there are no ways or manners to anyone inside elvenar to get the numbers of bears you´ve got, these buildings won´t be balanced.
 
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m4rt1n

Mentor
Good luck @DunkelSaturn

In my opinion, those in the privileged situation to have multiple bears, even 2 or 3 fire phoenixes will forever win the rankings on the tournament etc as it's been a couple of years now and all we see is a sticking plaster trying to cover over a very sore wound Inno would like swept under the carpet.

I learned a long time ago to live with it and just accept and enjoy the game, after all to me these days ranking is just a number, pixels on a screen.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
This suggestion has come up multiple times before andI personally support it (even though I have 2 brown bears).

just to add some points:

Multiple FirePhoenix isn´t a problem for the simple fact that extremely few people have it, because it was only an option for people spending heftly amounts of money. I only know of 1 town in my world that does and he sucks at tourneys anyway lol, so no damage done to any balance. But for completeness sake I wouldn´t mind taking away the option.

Brown bears have gotten out of hand because of the unlimited questline during that event. 6 or 7 brown bears were achievable without even spending any diamonds and some people have done so :) More than 1 was extremely easy, so a lot more people have multiples there.

A much more elegant solution to the problem would be to simply allow only 1 pet (of a kind) at any time to be fed. feeding the second brown bear would then cancel the feeding effect on the first. this way no buildings have to be deleted (after all a lot of effort has gone into acquiring them), and the second brown bear will simply become a super charged Vallorian Valor, but not a game balance breaking monster :)

The reason why it hasn´t happened yet and has rather low chances for success in the future: A lot of people have spent a lot of money on getting the buildings. And the money spending players are the ones that matter to Inno. So if Inno came and nerfed the buildings people have spent hundreds of USD/EUR on, you will get a wave of pissed off money slingers quitting. And that is not an option for Inno. Neither is paying them back the money... They rather have a few annoyed F2P players quit, because they can´t catch up.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
InnoGames. The capacity that many players inside Elvenar have to recover hundreds of times faster the troops lost in every tournament or spire rounds with 2-3 or more brown bears in comparison with those players that haven´t multiple brown bears or have not a single one of these in their city is just abysmal, new incomers just can´t compete with players that had the luck to have played the events of "Autum zodiac in september 2019" and "Evolution of the Phoenix in May 2019". In those past events, players still had the possibility to get infinite random event quests (not limited quests like todays event format), and with this ability to (even more when there was money involved) get several Bear/Phoenix bases with lot of artifacts for these ones.

My suggestion lies in, if you can´t delete the capacity of these buildings feeding effect to be stackable, allow players that don´t have multiple bears/phoenix bases, to reach certain number LIMITED of those buildings.
For example if you could put a limit of brown bears, let´s say at 4 per city, and one player already has 3 brown bears in his city, he would only be able to get one more, in contrast a new incomer would have the capacity to craft 4 new brown bear bases in his MA.
All this OF COURSE with money involved, making some bears/phoenix bases only obtainable via premium purchases and other with normal game procedures.

But you must do something with multiple bear stackability, specially with the Brown and Polar bears, these buildings are just so imbalanced, for real.


Considerations:
- The fire Phoenix do help a lot to boost those troops that has not a proper fighting building (HR, LM HM), and only on those kind of units having multiple fire phoenix would make a remarkable difference in constrast with the players that haven´t, so having multiple fire phoenix is not that imba and OP like brown bear is.
. Of course my suggestion would not be well received by the vast majority of players that have multiple brown bears (many are friends of mine), but I´m talking about balance, and this unit, while there are no ways or manners to anyone inside elvenar to get the numbers of bears you´ve got, this buildings won´t be balanced.
The entire tourney system ain't fair, the further you are in the game the more screwed you are.
Without my bears I would not compete in the T10 but in the bottom half of the T100.

My max premium expansions, and game advancement give me a huge penalty. and thats after deleting 200.000kp of wonders
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Is petfood not a constraint in how many pets you can run similtaneously and week after week?
It sure isn´t right now. In theory it could be, if they made pet food much more rare than it is right now, but you know how much people already complain about not having enough...
Especially brown bears don´t eat much, so it´s very hard to limit them through pet food availability.
Running 2 brown bears and a Firebird has ended up with me having 300+ Pet Food. So the limiting potential is very far off.
 

BlueBlou

Sorcerer
It sure isn´t right now. In theory it could be, if they made pet food much more rare than it is right now, but you know how much people already complain about not having enough...
Especially brown bears don´t eat much, so it´s very hard to limit them through pet food availability.
Running 2 brown bears and a Firebird has ended up with me having 300+ Pet Food. So the limiting potential is very far off.
I think your gameplay is such that you optimised pet food use. Was thinking along the lines of what 3 firebirds would need. Although, the range of play this request originated from, are likely those that do have a Timewarp etc. No need to feed more than one polar bear if your Timewarp is leveled high enough and you will use about a third of the pet food I do. Might just be doable feeding 3 birds once per week.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
The reason why it hasn´t happened yet and has rather low chances for success in the future: A lot of people have spent a lot of money on getting the buildings. And the money spending players are the ones that matter to Inno. So if Inno came and nerfed the buildings people have spent hundreds of USD/EUR on, you will get a wave of pissed off money slingers quitting. And that is not an option for Inno. Neither is paying them back the money... They rather have a few annoyed F2P players quit, because they can´t catch up.
Well first of all, one of my suggestions could fix that problem. Players would still have their OP multi-bears buildings in their cities, but at the same time Inno would allow players like myself that only have one B.Bear or new incomers to have the possibility via game play, via purchases, to get multiple bears at the same level of those that have spent money or had the luck ( as you said it happened in those past events where you could get, even without diamonds, multiple bear bases ) to get multiple brown bears. This suggestion, if implemented, would benefit not only the players that are in a field of unfairness, but also InnoGames would be benefited with this, cause many would like to spend some cash to get several bears/phoenix so they can compete with the players that already have them. The only issue here would be that the privilege that some players had with multi brown/polar bears would be over (and being realistic they will still have advantage) , but beyond that, everyone wins here, InnoGames even more.

Second, I think the fraction of quitters if Inno could nerf the stackability would only be a fraction, exactly those that are privileged right now by this imbalanced multi-bears stackability, and I doubt that even these would quit the game, cause for example, when tournament changes appeared many did flee away, but after some time many of those that "quit" the game, have returned.
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Multiple FirePhoenix isn´t a problem for the simple fact that extremely few people have it, because it was only an option for people spending heftly amounts of money. I only know of 1 town in my world that does and he sucks at tourneys anyway lol, so no damage done to any balance. But for completeness sake I wouldn´t mind taking away the option.
In my world I have seen only 2 players with 2 fire phoenix, one of them is a very very good tourney player.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
The entire tourney system ain't fair, the further you are in the game the more screwed you are.
Without my bears I would not compete in the T10 but in the bottom half of the T100.

My max premium expansions, and game advancement give me a huge penalty. and thats after deleting 200.000kp of wonders
That´s a bigger issue than having multiple bears, and I have complained a lot by this penalty Inno has over research tree, AWs and expansions, it is just absurd, but in my case and the case of players that don´t have multiple brown/polar bears is also unfair.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Well first of all, one of my suggestions could fix that problem. Players would still have their OP multi-bears buildings in their cities, but at the same time Inno would allow players like myself that only have one B.Bear or new incomers to have the possibility via game play, via purchases, to get multiple bears at the same level of those that have spent money or had the luck ( as you said it happened in those past events where you could get, even without diamonds, multiple bear bases ) to get multiple brown bears. This suggestion, if implemented, would benefit not only the players that are in a field of unfairness, but also InnoGames would be benefited with this, cause many would like to spend some cash to get several bears/phoenix so they can compete with the players that already have them. The only issue here would be that the privilege that some players had with multi brown/polar bears would be over (and being realistic they will still have advantage) , but beyond that, everyone wins here, InnoGames even more.

Second, I think the fraction of quitters if Inno could nerf the stackability would only be a fraction, exactly those that are privileged right now by this imbalanced multi-bears stackability, and I doubt that even these would quit the game, cause for example, when tournament changes appeared many did flee away, but after some time many of those that "quit" the game, have returned.
I don´t think that is feasible at all.
If you want to make it fair by allowing everybody the max number of brown and firebirds the whole game would have to be rebalanced. It simply isn´t designed to be played with 5 firebirds and 10 brown bears. Tournaments, spire and map encounters all would need an extreme difficulty increase and then nobody without 10 bears and 5 birds would then be able to play anymore at all. That would be really the end of the game, so definitely never going to happen.

Less than max is not a solution either, because you will still have the same unfairness you complain about now, some people will still be allowed more than max. Same problem at a different level. Of course I don´t know what the real max is, but I have seen 3 firebirds and 7 brown bears in y little world. And I haven´t been looking in other worlds at all. So I assume 5 and 10 is a reasonable guess, Inno would of course know, but my point is: it isn´t likely going to be less than that, even if 3+7 would be max the argument stands the same. And allowing more people more pets (but of course not even close to everybody will manage that) will only make the problem bigger rather than smaller. If you wanted fairness Inno would have to hand the buildings out for free to everybody (as I said the game will then be unplayable without) and the result will then be that indeed we get to a point where the amount of available pet food will limit the use of pets, however at a silly high level. If they wanted to go the limit by pet food way it would be much better to decrease number of pet foods rather than spam firebirds and brown bear all over the place.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
IIf they wanted to go the limit by pet food way it would be much better to decrease number of pet foods rather than spam firebirds and brown bear all over the place.
To a TimeWarp of the 27th level and a single Polar Bear don´t care how much or how less pet food is spawned in the game. You would only need to craft 3 pet food per week to complete the TWO whole tournaments (P.Bear & F.Phoenix), and the rest of pet food you get during the week you could very well spend it all in the many IMBA brown bears you´ve got inside your city. So reducing pet food incomes just would affect even much more to players that don´t have those buildings.

It is a must for InnoGames to bring some balance changes over Brown Bears, so my proposal even not that great, would it be a solution regarding economic gains that InnoGames would get ( cause, obviously if they apply this would be for a big rea$on) with many players wanting those premium buildings. But of course THE EASIEST and logical manner to balance this, is just nerfing those OP brown bears to make them unable to stack their feeding effect, it would be the perfect solution, but this going beyond of a state of proposal would it be hard to achieve, even less when Inno could have economic loses.
 

Far Reach

Soothsayer
The best solution which I can see would be to incorporate a penalty (in the Tournament/Spire formula) for each evolved level of each Phoenix and Brown Bear. This would need to include buildings in the inventory (as well as placed in the city). The weighting of the the Phoenix and Brown bear levels might be different, and I'd also suggest other changes in the formula so that the penalty only affected fighting and not negotiating.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
The best way to solve is it to indroduce more tourney pets.

Pet food left or right is the limiting factor, yes those who have optimised there pet food use have an advantage, but hey everyone over time can get that advantage.
Removing powers is the worst option aviable in any case, it will lead to anger, it also upsets whales who spend hefty money on it.
So the best solution is always where possible find another solution. one of evolving instead of nerfing.

This lead to the simpel conclusion that the best solution would be to introduce more tourney pets, this way eventually people need to make choices do I feed Pet A or Pet B, it can also lead to more diamond spending as people will start flipping the academy more often in search of more petfood / combat buildings to feed there horde of pets.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
The best solution which I can see would be to incorporate a penalty (in the Tournament/Spire formula) for each evolved level of each Phoenix and Brown Bear. This would need to include buildings in the inventory (as well as placed in the city). The weighting of the the Phoenix and Brown bear levels might be different, and I'd also suggest other changes in the formula so that the penalty only affected fighting and not negotiating.
Ah so if you are a whale and fund elvenar we should we should just punish and punish and punish you over and over again.
Thats a very good buisness strategy ;)
 

Far Reach

Soothsayer
Ah so if you are a whale and fund elvenar we should we should just punish and punish and punish you over and over again.
Thats a very good buisness strategy ;)
I'm not sure that I understand this point.

(1) Getting lots of brown bears had nothing to do with funding Elvenar, but rather high levels of activity during the relevant event. Yes getting more than one Fire Phoenix did involve spending money, but it was also not an intended outcome (according to Inno).

(2) The purpose of the formula (again as stated multiple times by Inno) is to lessen the benefits of progression (to give everyone a challenge and make thing more equal), but not to remove them. The player with multiple of these buildings should still have an advantage, just less of one. Inno already penalise various other "whale" perks in the formula (notably premium expansions).

Of course the tourney formula may not have entirely achieved its aims (even Inno have acknowledged an issue re Wonders), but it is the one mechanic that we have to balance tournaments. It seems better to revise that, than introducing a whole new set of separate imbalances.

The best way to solve is it to indroduce more tourney pets.
This doesn't really work for brown bears since they only require a small fraction of one pet food per week to be effective. Also it makes the tournament formula increasingly irrelevant (by not measuring the factors which matter most to fighting success.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
I'm not sure that I understand this point.

(1) Getting lots of brown bears had nothing to do with funding Elvenar, but rather high levels of activity during the relevant event. Yes getting more than one Fire Phoenix did involve spending money, but it was also not an intended outcome (according to Inno).

(2) The purpose of the formula (again as stated multiple times by Inno) is to lessen the benefits of progression (to give everyone a challenge and make thing more equal), but not to remove them. The player with multiple of these buildings should still have an advantage, just less of one. Inno already penalise various other "whale" perks in the formula (notably premium expansions).

Of course the tourney formula may not have entirely achieved its aims (even Inno have acknowledged an issue re Wonders), but it is the one mechanic that we have to balance tournaments. It seems better to revise that, than introducing a whole new set of separate imbalances.
Well brown bears could be from much activity but also from spending money, can you differentiate the 2?

Multi phoenix is a 100% whale thing, people spend real money on it, and we are talking some serious money since you could only get 1 phoenix so at least 2+ are bought to get access to the second fire phoenix.

What about the next pet? are we disallowing multi ash phoenixes? because it makes events too easy and an unfair advantage, BOOM another whale action denied.

If the next building is too good are we nerfing that one too?
Why should a whale spend money if after every action they are nerfed the shit out of there spend money?
Even competitive people will thinkt twice spending money assuming they know it will get nerfed later anyway. If I had known 2 fire phoenixes where possible I might have made the choice to spend money, but if a nerf is applied, there is no way I would ever spend a penny.

It's a giant please do not spend money in this game sign. which is bad for the game as it needs money to be run. which means we freebees loose the game as well.

This doesn't really work for brown bears since they only require a small fraction of one pet food per week to be effective. Also it makes the tournament formula increasingly irrelevant (by not measuring the factors which matter most to fighting success.
Choices are choices, I have my bears working 24/7 using tactical petfood.
I can't do this if I need to spend my petfood on something else.

Just let us make tough choices.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I agree nerfs aren´t nice, but they are part of every online game, some things simply are too powerful to be balanced any other way. Elvenar has nerfed things before and those were far less powerful than multiple firebirds.
Frogs and Crystal lighthouse are just two examples. Both were very powerful and IMO well worth a nerf, but neither was close to as powerful as an extra firebird.

I would say we are rather spoiled here, because elvenar is a rather well balanced game and doesn´t have to work with nearly as many nerfs as other games, but life goes on after nerfs. And even whales have rather little to complain about buildings being nerfed after 2+ years of having had overpowered buildings, they certainly payed off already :)
I would agree it was annoying if they nerfed a building after month of having bought it. But at some point even spending money doesn´t give you the right to block progress to a better game.
Sure if anyone can find a better way of balancing the game I am all for it, but spamming the game with ultrapowerful buildings (just to then make pet food limiting) will not be a solution, it will simply turn the game into a new game. Everything old will become completely obsolete while the only thing of importance will be the new buildings while the only important skill will be pet food management.
 
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