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Please Nerf multi-Bears/Phoenix stackability, not fair for the game.

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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
No facts, I am for a game of equal footing, I am just agains your change unless conditions are met.
I am not elitist in that regard. but I am against change for a tiny part without looking at the whole picture.
One tiny portion of players having 3 or more full Simia Sapiens that only require 3 pet foods, while "the whole picture" of players don´t even have one of them is not a "equal footing".
We players that don´t posses the amount of brown bears you´ve got are not a "tiny" part, we´re the majority my friend.

Your vieuw is too narrow. you only look at 1 single thing inside the tournament imbalance and ignore all other imbalances.
I was one of the main players that complained until languishment the no welcome tourney changes, I even got 2 bans in this forum by that exact reason, I absolutely know how these changes affected players like me and you.
In this manner I exposed you some solutions, in which you´ll be able to still have your OP B.Bears, one would be as simple as InnoGames letting players like myself to craft new brown bear bases, with a limit to them, we´ll all have ( with money involved or not) the possibility to get the amount you´ve got and none will touch your bears imba stackability.

All will win with this. But you didn´t accept it. Making the tournament part of this game tedious, bored, discouraged and unfair for the vast majority of players as it is now, and just competitive and enjoyed by some.

The fact is a chapter 18 account cannot compete in the tournaments right now
In my world there are several players competing in the top 10 that now are in the 18th chapter, one of them is always between the first 3... And he´s an exceptional player and also a friend of mine, but he´s there because he´s got 2 fire phoenix and several brown bears. The same for many of the top players.
And please read the prior as an anecdotic and isolated case in my world, to have a final conclusion I should gather all the results in every world inside elvenar since 2019 (I could do it, when I do have more free time)... But my assertion is not far from the reality.

You only seem to willing to fix your problem and want to ignore the others,
As long as you do not look at the whole picture, the whole balance bla bla argument becomes mood.
Blaming others and victimizing talking are not arguments tho.
And I answered you with plenty explanations, figures, and solution ways with respect of your imba brown bear stackability and the need you (and ME and all players in this game) seems to have with respect of the penalty in tournament/Spire for every research, expansion and AW upgrade. And still the players with multiple brown bears will have a huge advantage over players that don´t posses them.


To continue with the response....
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Thanks for calling me an elitist because it made me scrutinise you.
I have looked at your city and tournament scores. when we talk about being selfish en elitist you should count as the number 1 elitist.
This change seems to be driven from total selfishness, you are camped at chapter 16 with insane scores that I with my 3 bears cannot make.
So this change seems to be driven from the selfish point that you want to becomes the sole owner of the tournaments on your world.

A change in bears would benefit YOU the most, as you already positioned yourself into an advantagous position looking at the new tournament formula. So it looks like you want to remove the last hurdle to total domination.
It does not benefit others "above you" but it would benefit you. So this obviously ain't a samaritan plea, I also understand why it's not your problem that the tournament formula sucks, because you already benefit from it. the only thing you lack are the multiple bears.
Because you missed multiple pets you are now in the position that you were not hurt as much as most of the multipet users and you could mostly adjust yourself

I with my 3 pets needs to be removed, while your tournament scores are so much higher than mine.
So if my scores are so much worse than yours with my 3 bears why do I need to be gimped again in the name of "fairness"?
This kind of behavior is what dictators do to get into power, point fingers at the opposition and ignore there own power profile so they can get the sole power in there hands.
All this is mere speculation, and I will respond as clear and respectful as I can, and also will be as honest and sincere with you as I can.

I will explain my own personal case:
I could still winning over players that poses multiple brown bears by the only reason I play manually all the encounters in every tournament, it takes obviously some time, and I love this game exactly by the reason I´m being able to play manual all the encounters, to me is like playing chess.
But If I played in auto.fighting like most of the players that are my competitors I wouldn´t be able, not even in my dreams, to compete vs them, unless I had the number of bears they´ve got.
Now all other players, my fellows and rest of Elvenar population should play manually fighting like me so they can have a chance vs players that have a enormous advantage with their multiple brown bears? Don´t you think they, by sake of the time, should have the oportunity to also enjoy this game in the same manner you enjoy it? (if they don´t know how to play manually, it would take them several hours per round).

-Having 3 or more brown bears makes the game less strategic and more simple and easier for players that posses that amount of Brown Bears, they just need to recover all their loses and change something in their combo to finish the encounter in which they just have lost.
- Losing a fight in province 60th doesn´t mean the same for a player that poses 4 brown bears than someone that only posses 1.

I care about this change not by my particular case, that I obviously would be benefited if one of my proposal could take place, but this care is more for my fellowship and players I know that don´t posses all the brown bears that most of the players that win tournaments have. In all cases, fellows, friends or simple neighbors, I sense a common demotivation and careless about tournament competition, and the main root of this is SOME players always winning all the top places, and one of the main causes of them taking those top places is the OP and IMBA brown bear stackability.
How could I motivate a fellow and tell them: Hey it doesn´t matter if you´ve got no a single Brown Bear you can win the server without it.
Or advise them to play manual like me for that same purpose? Most people don´t understand manually fighting or have time for it.

Multiple Brown Bear stackability need to be either replaced, nerfed, fixed or allow general player population inside Elvenar to posses near the same amount of bears (at least another brown bear base would be acceptable) that you posses. #Facts

And... My particular case, the fact I win over players that posses several brown bears it means ABSOLUTELY nothing for the argument in question, my own personal case is an ISOLATED case, with this you can´t refute the argument itself my friend CrazyWizard.
 
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Far Reach

Soothsayer
There are some strong and opposing views on this thread, but that shouldn't really affect what (if anything) Inno chooses to do about brown bears, expansions or any other factor affecting tournament performance.

Could I suggest that we focus on objective facts (which we hopefully might be able to agree on) and (if justified) request our friendly moderators consider taking these to the devs as part of a suggestion that they revisit the entire way that tournament costs are produced?

Some objective facts which we should be able to generate are as to whether the players scoring in the tournament top 10 on EN servers (or indeed all servers) tend to have particular characteristics (e.g. multiple bears, few expansions for their chapter, pre C18 etc.)

Ideally it would be good if we could also come to some of consensus on the analysis of how much difference each characteristic is likely to make, although I accept that this might be harder.

My personal estimate is that a top tournament player with 3 brown bears should score about 25% higher than a similar player with 1 brown bear. @CrazyWizard's assertion earlier in this thread about how hard such a change would hit him would imply a much greater benefit than that (more than a 100% increase in fact) but I'm struggling to see that myself.

As far as expansions are concerned, I estimate that a player with 100 expansions should score about 25% higher than a player with 150 expansions (provided that both players are similar in all other ways).
 

Solanix

Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
@DunkelSaturn I asked for leaving this thread where it is. If it will be continued, I might consider closing it. It is in no way constructive, it is just a big moan about not having something, others have. Please note that there are no intentions taking something out of the game that was given to our players. Sometimes you have to take things as they are.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
@DunkelSaturn it is just a big moan about not having something, others have.
Could you please be polite?

Your responses are far from what a mod should behave, I don´t know how other CCs allow you this kind of behaviour, I haven´t never seen a moderator or community manager replying in this manner, being that confrontational and rude with players inside the forum that are expressing their opinions.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
There will be always advantages for some players ofver the other.

Right now the focus in this thread is on bears but there are so many factors. if bears need to be nerfed for "balance" reason and increased competition thats fine. but if that is the goal we cannot point at a single point of failure. if balance is the key. then we should look at all points of failure. and that is very complicated.

For starters in the name of competition there should not be an exploitable tournament formula, that only certrain players can exploit.
There should not be stackable pets
There should not be old sets in the game thave give a huge goods bonus (my 500K t1 set for example)

You should have a set of rules, that any player, at any time can work towards and reach it in any point of the game.
We now have a ruleset where you should reverse your game which ain't possible.

If pets are changed in the grand scheme of things thats fine, but I am agains any change that only hurts certain players for no balance reason. because without all parts balanced there is no balance anyway.

Do people with multiple pets have an advantage? yes thats a fact.
Do people who have not placed all expansions, and are camping in certain lower chapters have an advantage? Yes thats a fact.
Do people with certain old sets have an advantage because they can use there massive goods production to get an edge?, Yes thats also a fact.

All 3 points are massively important, this thread only talks about 1 imbalance and ignores all the others.
This should not be about multiple pets, but about the tournaments in general.

There is no way in the world that changing the pets on itself would fix anything, it would just be advantages to another group of elite players.
It would not fix anything so I am agains it for that reason and that reason alone.

My personal estimate is that a top tournament player with 3 brown bears should score about 25% higher than a similar player with 1 brown bear. @CrazyWizard's assertion earlier in this thread about how hard such a change would hit him would imply a much greater benefit than that (more than a 100% increase in fact) but I'm struggling to see that myself.
The difference is all about how far you can get, the more provinces you unlock the less the difference is score between with and without bears.
Just becauese you have 100% more units to burn doesnt mean you get double the score your 25% off might not be that far off. it might be even less. but with a 25% less score I do not end up in the T10 but maybe T50 that difference is huge.

The main issue is the unfluence of expansions and research. martial prowess is reached halfway the elvenar chapter. after that all goes down each chapter adds about 5-11% more unit production and asks about 20-30% more units to reach the same score is quickly escaltes into a point where no bears can fix that deficit anymore

but last but not least is the tourment formula research*expansions*wonderlevels.
Optimal reseach we already determined halfway the elvenar chapter. but those other values are key.
Wonderlevels we can control, we can remove and destroy wonders, but we cannot undo expansions and this is where the reason my bears cannot compete agains expansions.

lets say I build a town using only 1/4 of the aviabl expansions. and lets pretend the value of research if 3, and the value of wonderlevels is 2.
3*1*2=6
3*4*2=24

This means a player who focussus on building with less expansions will have a tournament thats 4 times as cheap that a player who places 4x the expansions.
Since bese production is potentially 150% (100+50% simia) you would need 9 brown bears and the accompanying petfoot to compete with such a town.and each chapter added adds another few bears.

This is why a tournament focussed town cannot be beaten by brown bears, it's just waiting untill such town start to appear in greater numbers and totally control the tournaments.
With focus and dedication, and the help of friends you could built a tournament chapter 16 account with as little as 25 or so expansions. thats less then 1/6th of mine and in a spire focused group you could make 19 of them premium expansions reducing the cost even more.

You end up with like 1/8th the tournament costs with the same production, we already build relic focussed town where you could buy yourself to the top with 0 relic bonus and some event building based production that doesnt care about your relic bonus, and when those started to appear up in the leaderboards they introduced the current all relics are given each tournaments to patch that hole, but the expansion hole is much harder to fix. t would need a tournament rework.

If a tournament rework would happen and things make sense again then we can talk about multiple pets but currently the old tournament "elites" needs those pets to compete with those with a more limited set of expansions research.
Competition will always be between a small group of "elite players" the general public can't care less about the top spots.
there simply aint a giant group that can end up at the top of the leaderboards.

Now fingers are pointed towards the stackability of pets, but the imbalance in expansions / research is a much bigger issue than any set of stackable pets can ever achieve.
When I was called an elite snob for fighting for my pets it turned out that that the finger pointing came from someone who has a mayor research / expansion advantage. an elite from the other side of the coin. (thou in the future he to will be trashed by much more efficient towns on his side of the coin anyway)

Because lets be fair if you actually compete in the tournaments, you are by definition an elite, there are only 10 spots for 30.000 players in the top 10.
For anyone who ain't an elite the tournaments score doesnt matter anyway, and who has how many pets, and who builds a town with as little expansions / research. they do not care about in the least/ why? because they do not compete, they just have fun.

I can talk about balance in the tournaments overall, and the issues and solution. but it's a complete packages, I cannot stand that someone points fingers at my bears so he/she can benefit from it massively. it's like a olympic sporter who want to make sure he/she will win by poisoning the best players in his league.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I just had another idea: Why not put a 1 year expiry timer on every event building?
(Or for those that like looking at them, let them keep their pop/cult values, but nothing else after the timer expires)

That would solve a lot of problems. New players would only have to play for 1 year to be able to play on equal footing with everybody else. Multiples are an advantage for a year, but not forever. Future "mistakes" with overpowered buildings will also only last for a year (which is a faster fix of the problem than what we have now)

Of course currently tournaments are designed with Firebird/brown bear in mind, so either the would have to be made easier again, or we would have to have a Firebird/brown bear easily available once per year.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
I dont think people who spend cash during events would welcome that idea @Gargon667 unless they get a refund every year too.:D
Something must be done with this, even his Idea would have place here.

The easy solution:
- Nerf Brown Bears so the players can only fed one and only one Brown Bear could give a special effect on troop production, no more stackability in Brown Bears ( it wouldn´t be applied in any other pet, evo or sets buildings, just in Brown Bears).

The WIN-WIN solution:
- Allow players that don´t posses multiple brown bears have some more bases of this specific building. InnoGames could open an offer (with diamonds involved) that allow players get 2 or more bases of brown bears allowing general Elvenar population get them.
Being tournament a VERY BIG part of this game, and being Brown Bears the base of a good performance and competition in these tournaments, MANY MANY players from all servers inside Elvenar will spend a big cash for them, giving InnoGames a huge revenue. #Facts
With this change, old owners of Brown Bears will still have their Brown Bears as they are (INTACT), new incomers or players that don´t posses many Brown Bears will have the opportunity to craft the same amount of B.Bears they´ve got paying for them (or by other means) and InnoGames will win a huge amount of money by all the purchases of players like me, that when I could see a offer of a brown bear base I won´t hesitate in buying it.

The hardest solution :
- Applying a new system in-game to make tournaments of players that posses several bears more complicated.
 
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CrazyWizard

Shaman
Something must be done with this, even his Idea would have place here.

The easy solution:
- Nerf Brown Bears so the players can only fed one and only one Brown Bear could give a special effect on troop production, no more stackability in Brown Bears ( it wouldn´t be applied in any other pet, evo or sets buildings, just in Brown Bears).

The WIN-WIN solution:
- Allow players that don´t posses multiple brown bears have some more bases of this specific building. InnoGames could open an offer (with diamonds involved) that allow players get 2 or more bases of brown bears allowing general Elvenar population get them.
Being tournament a VERY BIG part of this game, and being Brown Bears the base of a good performance and competition in these tournaments, MANY MANY players from all servers inside Elvenar will spend a big cash for them, giving InnoGames a huge revenue. #Facts
With this change, old owners of Brown Bears will still have their Brown Bears as they are (INTACT), new incomers or players that don´t posses many Brown Bears will have the opportunity to craft the same amount of B.Bears they´ve got paying for them (or by other means) and InnoGames will win a huge amount of money by all the purchases of players like me, that when I could see a offer of a brown bear base I won´t hesitate in buying it.

The hardest solution :
- Applying a new system in-game to make tournaments of players that posses several bears more complicated.

Apply a penalty to all players who do not place all expansions aviable and apply a penalty to all players not advancing in the tech tree.
Because that one has a much bigger impact on the tournaments than any pet can
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Apply a penalty to all players who do not place all expansions aviable and apply a penalty to all players not advancing in the tech tree.
Because that one has a much bigger impact on the tournaments than any pet can
- That penalty won´t affect players in tournament neither, cause players according to their actual chapter would have a certain number of expansions to place (not premium expansions included) and according to exactly this, a corresponding penalty is already applied in them.
That would only affect players with premium expansions.
In my case I´ve placed all my available expansions and I remember I´ve place like 8 premium expansions and I´m already penalized by the new tourney formula :) .

- "Applying a penalty to players don´t advancing in the tech tree" would affect you the most since you´re camped in the beggining of the 17th chapter, and haven´t advanced to the 18th one.

- In no manner, even in our imagination 3-4 buildings that gives you altogether a boost of +150%/+200% of your total training size would be compared to a penalty per AW level, Research node or Expansion placed of less of !% in yours and enemy squad size in tournament.
Even in the case players with a huge penalty (all levels in AWs, all research tree completed until end of chapter 18, and with lot of premium expansions placed in their city) will have advantage over players players that don´t have 4 brown bears and are camped in the 15-16 chapter, have a moderate AWs development and has place the fewer expansions they can.
Cause we´re talking of a building that perform the same as a fully upgraded Simia Sapiens, but without the size of it, the penalty for the AW levels and without all the effort to upgrade it. (But multiplied several times).
Besides the comparison must include lot of upgrades in Barrack, Merc.Camp, and T.Grounds that improves training speed, squad size upgrades, and other improvements, that even small, together with the multiple brown bear stackability counter those penalties and gives a huge advantage to players that possses multiple brown bears ( ------- No matter how many expansions they have, no matter in what chapter they are, no matter how many AWs levels they´ve got -----).
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Apply a penalty to all players who do not place all expansions aviable and apply a penalty to all players not advancing in the tech tree.
Because that one has a much bigger impact on the tournaments than any pet can
Ok here´s goes a direct question, I have the faith you could answer me this time. Would you be ok with the next proposal that I have wrote here some lines above but now I put it right where you can see it clearly:

"The WIN-WIN solution:
- Allow players that don´t posses multiple brown bears have some more bases of this specific building. InnoGames could open an offer (with diamonds involved) that allow players get 2 or more bases of brown bears allowing general Elvenar population get them.
Being tournament a VERY BIG part of this game, and being Brown Bears the base of a good performance and competition in these tournaments, MANY MANY players from all servers inside Elvenar will spend a big cash for them, giving InnoGames a huge revenue. #Facts
With this change, old owners of Brown Bears will still have their Brown Bears as they are (INTACT), new incomers or players that don´t posses many Brown Bears will have the opportunity to craft the same amount of B.Bears they´ve got paying for them (or by other means) and InnoGames will win a huge amount of money by all the purchases of players like me, that when I could see a offer of a brown bear base I won´t hesitate in buying it."

I really would love to know what do you think about it, cause in this manner we can advance in this conversation.
 
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Gargon667

Mentor
I dont think people who spend cash during events would welcome that idea @Gargon667 unless they get a refund every year too.:D
I don´t see it written anywhere that stuff you buy with diamonds has to last forever. Actually most things that are bought with diamonds in this game are instants rather than permanent things and even most premium buildings become outdated faster than 1 year. The event and Magic buildings really are the exception and even those need to be upgraded in order to stay relevant.

Those that spend tons of money every event for multiple grand prizes run out of space anyway and sell their stuff after a while to be able to place new ones.

And as I said the important 2: Firebirds /brown bear would have to be offered once a year, maybe as a grand prize in a mini event or something like that.

So no I don´t forsee any problem there really. Of course people will complain, no matter what is done in the game people will always complain, but I doubt it will be anything bigger than background noise.

Anyway it´s just an idle thought, I don´t see anything at all happening in that direction, no matter how much sense it makes :D

And I also agree with @CrazyWizard that the tourney formula is most likely a bigger problem for the game than multi-pets and should be fixed first. But really both things should be fixed, and neither will be lol...
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Ok here´s goes a direct question, I have the faith you could answer me this time. Would you be ok with the next proposal that I have wrote here some lines above but now I put it right where you can see it clearly:

"The WIN-WIN solution:
- Allow players that don´t posses multiple brown bears have some more bases of this specific building. InnoGames could open an offer (with diamonds involved) that allow players get 2 or more bases of brown bears allowing general Elvenar population get them.
Being tournament a VERY BIG part of this game, and being Brown Bears the base of a good performance and competition in these tournaments, MANY MANY players from all servers inside Elvenar will spend a big cash for them, giving InnoGames a huge revenue. #Facts
With this change, old owners of Brown Bears will still have their Brown Bears as they are (INTACT), new incomers or players that don´t posses many Brown Bears will have the opportunity to craft the same amount of B.Bears they´ve got paying for them (or by other means) and InnoGames will win a huge amount of money by all the purchases of players like me, that when I could see a offer of a brown bear base I won´t hesitate in buying it."

I really would love to know what do you think about it, cause in this manner we can advance in this conversation.
If they did that, Inno would have to make tourneys more difficult again. if they don´t we get back to where we were in the old tourneys, where the number of scouted provinces and the pure stubbornness to click a million times a week become the deciding factors in tourney scores. And the simple fact that this has ended with the new tourneys makes me prefer them over the old tourneys, no matter how bad the new formula really is. So I will definitely vote no to unlimited pets for everybody.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
Apply a penalty to all players who do not place all expansions aviable and apply a penalty to all players not advancing in the tech tree.
Because that one has a much bigger impact on the tournaments than any pet can
Lol I guess it could work, but how friggin backwards is that? It should be a bonus to advance in the tech tree and to place expansions! The problem is how horribly bad those last few chapters have been. If there had been anything of importance to tourney play it would pay off to do it, but well it simply hasn´t. Chapters are just hoops to jump through for the sake of jumping through hoops. No benefit to it whatsoever. That should be fixed. Then you don´t need to penalize people that are bored of jumping through hoops.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
- "Applying a penalty to players don´t advancing in the tech tree" would affect you the most since you´re camped in the beggining of the 17th chapter, and haven´t advanced to the 18th one.

-
Thats the difference between you and me, I am not looking at only that what benefits me, but what benefits the game.
Thou is was also a sort of sarcastic reply as you once again came up with whatever peeves your pet.

You are so laser focused on pets that you are not looking at the big picture. for you only the multipets count and everything else is not your issue.
But the tournaments are much bigger than pets, there are more factors involved. you are simply unwilling to accept that and keep just laser focussed on your problem instead of the games problem

I would love to see changes that make me want to advance in the tech tree again, I would welcome and cherish it.
so yes please create a mechanism that punishes me for camping at the start of chapter 17.


Lol I guess it could work, but how friggin backwards is that? It should be a bonus to advance in the tech tree and to place expansions! The problem is how horribly bad those last few chapters have been. If there had been anything of importance to tourney play it would pay off to do it, but well it simply hasn´t. Chapters are just hoops to jump through for the sake of jumping through hoops. No benefit to it whatsoever. That should be fixed. Then you don´t need to penalize people that are bored of jumping through hoops.
So true so true.

There are some things I do not like about the new tournaments but I also agree with you the new ones are in some ways better than the old. I do dislike that the entry level for real tournament play is now so much higher. only the ignorant part is much easier. but that doesnt make you learn anything.

I got the message last week that chapter 19 seems to be getting ready in the gamefiles, and my response to that was, "meh, who cares" and thats just bad bad design. In the past I started to prepare sheets and enter in all kinds of information and formula's to get prepped for a new chapter.
But I also do not expect them to turn a 180 any time soon.
 

DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
If they did that, Inno would have to make tourneys more difficult again. if they don´t we get back to where we were in the old tourneys, where the number of scouted provinces and the pure stubbornness to click a million times a week become the deciding factors in tourney scores. And the simple fact that this has ended with the new tourneys makes me prefer them over the old tourneys, no matter how bad the new formula really is. So I will definitely vote no to unlimited pets for everybody.
- Why do you think Inno would do tourney more difficult from what is now?
- We´ll never get back to what tourney use to be, I really doubt that a super improvement like one fight/encounter per province, that reduced lot of that stubborness and was loved by all would be taken away by anything that could be place in tournament instead. I don´t know why do you think it would happen.
- This won´t be "for all pets" (I clearly remarked that would be applied only to brown bears and never wrote "all pets" here), They won´t be "unlimited"(there would be obviously a limit of BBears you can get) and not for "everybody" (cause players would have either buy them or works for them in-game). In my proposal I explicitly remarked the word "oportunity" , which means InnoGames would give a chance to anybody that wants several brown bear pets but they won´t give them for free (The justice is applied by that opportunity, everybody would have the chance but if they don´t want pay the price they won´t get them) . Please read well what I´m saying my friend Gargon :) .

Lol I guess it could work, but how friggin backwards is that? It should be a bonus to advance in the tech tree and to place expansions! The problem is how horribly bad those last few chapters have been. If there had been anything of importance to tourney play it would pay off to do it, but well it simply hasn´t. Chapters are just hoops to jump through for the sake of jumping through hoops. No benefit to it whatsoever. That should be fixed. Then you don´t need to penalize people that are bored of jumping through hoops.
The part InnoGames forgot to do when they nerfed the tournament system the other year was to include in the penalty formula ( AWs level, Expansions placed and Reasearch tree) the total number of levels that your Fire Phoenix and Brown Bears your city has. That would have fixed the game and make it fairer.
 
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DunkelSaturn

Enchanter
Thats the difference between you and me, I am not looking at only that what benefits me, but what benefits the game.
Thou is was also a sort of sarcastic reply as you once again came up with whatever peeves your pet.

You are so laser focused on pets that you are not looking at the big picture. for you only the multipets count and everything else is not your issue.
But the tournaments are much bigger than pets, there are more factors involved. you are simply unwilling to accept that and keep just laser focussed on your problem instead of the games problem

I would love to see changes that make me want to advance in the tech tree again, I would welcome and cherish it.
so yes please create a mechanism that punishes me for camping at the start of chapter 17.
- No, I explained you very well why these buildings (brown bears) are imbalanced and surpass in all aspects whatever penalty players would get in whatever stage in the game they are now, whatever AWs level total number they have now and whatever expansions they´ve got now.
You want to keep focused in my ISOLATED case because, looks like "ad hominem" arguments is what fits better to you.

I asked you something VERY VERY CLEAR, so we can have something to talk and advance in this conversation but you didn´t even noticed it.
You keep talking of own personal case to "refute" my arguments, I gotta tell you, that´s not objetive, that´s not an argument. you´re not demonstrating nothing here.

I will ask you again with black letters:

1.- Right or False that a brown bear performs exactly as a full upgraded Simia Sapiens but without the penalty this AW gives you in tournament, without the size of this AW and without the effort in KP and time to upgrade it?

2.- Right or False that multiple Brown Bears performs exactly or even better than multiple Simia Sapiens?

3.. Would you be ok if the next would be applied or what is your opinion about it?
"
The WIN-WIN solution:
- Allow players that don´t posses multiple brown bears have some more bases of this specific building. InnoGames could open an offer (with diamonds involved) that allow players get 2 or more bases of brown bears allowing general Elvenar population get them.
Being tournament a VERY BIG part of this game, and being Brown Bears the base of a good performance and competition in these tournaments, MANY MANY players from all servers inside Elvenar will spend a big cash for them, giving InnoGames a huge revenue. #Facts
With this change, old owners of Brown Bears will still have their Brown Bears as they are (INTACT), new incomers or players that don´t posses many Brown Bears will have the opportunity to craft the same amount of B.Bears they´ve got paying for them (or by other means) and InnoGames will win a huge amount of money by all the purchases of players like me, that when I could see a offer of a brown bear base I won´t hesitate in buying it."
 
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