From This Or Your Previous Chapter?

[Pauly7]

Weeping Willows use 5x5 per unit and you need a lot of them to have any hope of finishing the chapter in any kind of reasonable time.../QUOTE]

Take for example Mana - Weeping Willows are the very basic and first major Mana building.

Just to expand on this, nothing in this game confuses me more than the Weeping Willow. More particularly I am confused that anyone builds one. I can only assume that the GGOK website has so much influence over people that they build stacks of this building because some writer on that site told them to.

Right from the first moment the Willow is available it doesnt even give as good mana output as other stock buildings produce such as the Treant's Grave. It is also outperformed by every single event mana building, as @randblade points out. I think the Mana Hut is the second best mana building ever conceived and it still appears in events. The only one to better it, weirdly, was a single square building, but that relied on you having the rest of a set around it.

In my humble opinion the Willow is as ugly as it is cumbersome and every building gets twice as ugly every time it is placed near a duplicate of its kind.

 

[DeletedUser3571]

I can think of a number of reasons to build the willow
when i started woodelves the mana hut was the only mana building from events and only from fa i think so i had to build them
another is i liked to have a nice amount of culture and willow provided that as well
if you start woodleves just after the big event then you could wait a couple of months before a new big event came and a lot of people are not willing to wait that long.
tbh i thought the willow went quite nicely with the woodelves look
i will admit that you dont need them as long now as big events do give better mana buildings and come around more often

 

[DeletedUser8573]

I'm only halfway thru Wooldelves chapter so there might be something I am missing.

Weeping Willows give 3500 as neighbor culture bonus so that's something to take in to account.

Edit: I don't normally run in to problems with supplies but when I'm in building mode I often have to use instants to get supplies. So neighbor culture helps a bit in that department

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Just to expand on this, nothing in this game confuses me more than the Weeping Willow. More particularly I am confused that anyone builds one. I can only assume that the GGOK website has so much influence over people that they build stacks of this building because some writer on that site told them to.

Right from the first moment the Willow is available it doesnt even give as good mana output as other stock buildings produce such as the Treant's Grave. It is also outperformed by every single event mana building, as @randblade points out. I think the Mana Hut is the second best mana building ever conceived and it still appears in events. The only one to better it, weirdly, was a single square building, but that relied on you having the rest of a set around it.

In my humble opinion the Willow is as ugly as it is cumbersome and every building gets twice as ugly every time it is placed near a duplicate of its kind.

Willow does give as good a real mana output as Treants Grave does and has a number of advantages over Treants Grave

On a direct basis the Willow produces 186 mana/h for 25 tiles, while Treants Grave produces 17/h for 2 tiles. So like-for-like you'd need 11 Graves to match one Willow [rounding error difference] which means 22 tiles.

Except because of the fact that Mana buildings need roads that changes things. Essentially the way I view it is that each road tile connection counts as half a tile [since you can put buildings on each side] so a Willow needs 27.5 titles, while a Grave needs 2.5 tiles. That means 11 Graves would require . . . 27.5 tiles too. Exactly the same.

Willow has a longer collection period and can be set set to build overnight, while Graves require you to log in each hour to build.

Finally each polished Willow gives 7000 culture.

 

[Deleted User - 1759805]

Just to expand on this, nothing in this game confuses me more than the Weeping Willow. More particularly I am confused that anyone builds one. I can only assume that the GGOK website has so much influence over people that they build stacks of this building because some writer on that site told them to.

Right from the first moment the Willow is available it doesnt even give as good mana output as other stock buildings produce such as the Treant's Grave. It is also outperformed by every single event mana building, as @randblade points out. I think the Mana Hut is the second best mana building ever conceived and it still appears in events. The only one to better it, weirdly, was a single square building, but that relied on you having the rest of a set around it.

A lot of... not accurate information here Treant's grave is only available halfway through the chapter, and is already behind research that requires mana to unlock. The only option to get there is Willow, which is available right from the start. Well, that, or getting some event mana producers, which you can't count on being available right when you're entering Woodelves. It might be different if you're willing to wait potentially weeks for the next event and the right building (or waste RRs upgrading existing stuff, which is really a waste that early in the chapters).

And Treant's Grave is not really a better mana producer, once you start accounting for roads, as @randblade already pointed out. Roads are hard to account for accurately as a lot depends on configuration, but TG has roughly equivalent mana density after accounting for road connections.

Mana Huts are pretty good, but are not second best mana producers. Again, being small, roads matter, so after accounting for that larger buildings such as Burning Pool/Manta Ray are pretty close (not as efficient to produce, but 3x more efficient to gain as daily prizes). Also, not sure which 1 tile building you're talking about (gum tree? shrines of Kirit/Krarak?), but Revelers Fountain and Frost Carved Christmas Tree are probably the best mana producers in the game with link bonuses.

The next clearly superior mana producer in the regular buildings is Arcane Library from S&D.

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Besides Revelers Fountain [which you can't win multiple of] and I don't know the Christmas Tree the best repeatable mana building I've seen in the game is the 1x1 [Spire] Mana Tree.

And of course the Dragon Abbey beats everything!

 

[Pauly7]

Treant's grave is only available halfway through the chapter, and is already behind research that requires mana to unlock. The only option to get there is Willow, which is available right from the start.

OK, you could be right there. It's been a long time so I just had a look back. To be honest I don't have any recollection of there being a gap between the two. Certainly there wasn't any point where I felt any need or desire to build one. Perhaps there was an event going on at the time, but I always had access to mana and I considered this as one of the factors when wondering if I do need any Willows (which I consider one of the ugliest creations on Elvenar).

And Treant's Grave is not really a better mana producer, once you start accounting for roads, as @randblade already pointed out. Roads are hard to account for accurately as a lot depends on configuration, but TG has roughly equivalent mana density after accounting for road connections.

This all depends on the configuration and the numbers of buildings. I am sure a single long row of Treant's Graves would prove more "road efficient" than a Weeping Willow. (Neither affects me personally as I put things beside roads because I think roads belong somewhere, aesthetically - I am not arguing for the personal benefit though.)

Also, not sure which 1 tile building you're talking about (gum tree? shrines of Kirit/Krarak?)

Shrine of Kirit is currently giving me 6,600 mana for one square. The other one is no good as it turns into seeds. Gum Tree doesn't give mana - You may mean the Mana Plant, but that isn't nearly as good.

but Revelers Fountain and Frost Carved Christmas Tree are probably the best mana producers in the game with link bonuses.

At the same level as above, Reveller's Fountain gives 33,525 mana, which is 3,725 per square. I've never built a Christmas Tree as I don't want to turn my city comedy, but again I realise that is my own choice. If that one has great stats I will not argue as I wouldn't know.

Mana Huts are pretty good, but are not second best mana producers. Again, being small, roads matter

Again, this is a pretty subjective concept depending where they are placed and in what configuration. Also bear in mind that Mana Huts and Treant Graves can be slotted into little nooks and crannies all over the place, which a Weeping Willow cannot. I will stand by mana per square output being a valid comparison.

Finally each polished Willow gives 7000 culture.

This is a valid point and if people need the culture then that should be a factor, of course.

 

[Deleted User - 1759805]

Besides Revelers Fountain [which you can't win multiple of] and I don't know the Christmas Tree the best repeatable mana building I've seen in the game is the 1x1 [Spire] Mana Tree.

Mana plant / gum tree have the same problem as mana huts - they're just too small. With sets it is less about road connections, but about maxing link bonuses. In Woodelves MP/GP can be pure players and be connected just to each other and will produce nothing but mana, but it is only 1-link bonus, meaning (280+210)/21*24 = 560 mana per tile per day. To hit 2 link bonuses you will need to add some other set buildings, and this will take a lot of them for 1 tile producers. Probably the most efficient setup would be MP/GP surrounding Moonstone Gate, so if I am not mistaken that would be 10x 2-links, 4x 1-link + the gate, for the total of about 13.5K of daily mana output in 18 tiles, so about 800 mana/day per tile (and still needs 1 road tile per complex).

Things will be worse later in the chapters, when gum tree won't be producing mana anymore.

On the other hand, Christmas Trees are extremely efficient en masse. In Woodelves, 2-link trees produce slightly less than 20K of mana per day in 18 tiles. And you can make 4x trees 2-link ones by adding just 1x 3x3 sled and 2x 3x2 booths. This means 18*4+9+6*3 = 93 tiles produce about 80K of mana a day, so about 860 mana/day per tile. And you also get some extras from sled and booths, and if you have more trees you can share more of the connectors.

Now, Christmas Trees and the Revelers Fountain are not available anymore, and perhaps will never be again. Moonstone set is. But having said that, to hit any kind of meaningful mana output from that set requires A LOT of pieces, meaning A LOT of Spire. Did I mention A LOT of Spire?

 

[Deleted User - 1759805]

At the same level as above, Reveller's Fountain gives 33,525 mana, which is 3,725 per square. I've never built a Christmas Tree as I don't want to turn my city comedy, but again I realise that is my own choice. If that one has great stats I will not argue as I wouldn't know.

Well, it doesn't sound right. 6600 for Shrine of Kirit sounds like Amuni, with maximum 3-link bonus - correct? If yes, then maxed out Revelers Fountain in Amuni produces 67K of mana a day, not 33.5K. This is almost 7.5K daily on a straight per tile basis.

To be fair, evaluating efficiency of set buildings is complicated, as ultimately it will depend on how much relative value (if any) a player attaches to different outputs of the same set. And this part can and does differ player to player.

 

[Pauly7]

If yes, then maxed out Revelers Fountain in Amuni produces 67K of mana a day, not 33.5K. This is almost 7.5K daily on a straight per tile basis.

Oh really? In that case my apologies. At home I actually have a table of mana efficiency (too much time on my hands), but really I've only recorded what I've had, or once had - or sometimes ones that I have clearly looked at and bypassed. It is quite possible that I do not have the max number of links and that is the reason for my confusion. 67k obviously wins star prize!

To be fair, evaluating efficiency of set buildings is complicated, as ultimately it will depend on how much relative value (if any) a player attaches to different outputs of the same set. And this part can and does differ player to player

Agreed. Lots to think about with sets. In fact I've only reasonably recently put some sets together in my city that had previously been standalone (aesthetics generally being of greater importance to me). So in a way they are newer to me than others. For example I only just recently realised that multiples of the same building do not seem to give an extra link bonus in the Spire set.

 

[Hekata]

@Pauly7 Going off topic here but since you mentioned the Shrines of Sun and Moon I just wanted to say that it's my favourite set (both for production and aesthetics) except that I didn't get the big Krarak piece and I keep hoping it will come up again someday. I know chances are slim. Or it would be nice of Inno if for some anniversary of Elvenar or something they gave us an event where for the main prize we get to chose one (or two if they are feeling generous, lol) from all the inventory of prizes we had so far. I know I'd go with that one. A girl can dream right?

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Mana plant / gum tree have the same problem as mana huts - they're just too small. With sets it is less about road connections, but about maxing link bonuses. In Woodelves MP/GP can be pure players and be connected just to each other and will produce nothing but mana, but it is only 1-link bonus, meaning (280+210)/21*24 = 560 mana per tile per day. To hit 2 link bonuses you will need to add some other set buildings, and this will take a lot of them for 1 tile producers. Probably the most efficient setup would be MP/GP surrounding Moonstone Gate, so if I am not mistaken that would be 10x 2-links, 4x 1-link + the gate, for the total of about 13.5K of daily mana output in 18 tiles, so about 800 mana/day per tile (and still needs 1 road tile per complex).

Things will be worse later in the chapters, when gum tree won't be producing mana anymore.

On the other hand, Christmas Trees are extremely efficient en masse. In Woodelves, 2-link trees produce slightly less than 20K of mana per day in 18 tiles. And you can make 4x trees 2-link ones by adding just 1x 3x3 sled and 2x 3x2 booths. This means 18*4+9+6*3 = 93 tiles produce about 80K of mana a day, so about 860 mana/day per tile. And you also get some extras from sled and booths, and if you have more trees you can share more of the connectors.

Now, Christmas Trees and the Revelers Fountain are not available anymore, and perhaps will never be again. Moonstone set is. But having said that, to hit any kind of meaningful mana output from that set requires A LOT of pieces, meaning A LOT of Spire. Did I mention A LOT of Spire?

Personally I think Spire is great, I have done 3 maps every single week since it was launched. I have 11 Mana Plants already from the Spire, all 11 are with maxed out bonus. Between those 11 tiles I generate 43,560 mana per day [it says 21h but that basically is daily since it ends up getting earlier until you hit morning].

Those 11 tiles of Mana Plants are equivalent to 5 [20 Tiles] of Magical Mana Huts or 1.633 [39 tiles] of Aqueducts.

The other beauty of Spire buildings, besides them being repeatedly gettable and largely the most efficient repeatable buildings in the game is that they effectively don't need roads. I currently have 95 tiles lined up 24*4 with only the final 4 tiles touching a road. There's nothing repeatable I know about that is more efficient than that.

5 Mana Huts with roads essentially require 25 tiles while my 11 basically require 11.25 titles including roads. Mana Plants are more than twice as efficient including roads for me than Mana Huts and majorly more efficient than anything else.

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Well, it doesn't sound right. 6600 for Shrine of Kirit sounds like Amuni, with maximum 3-link bonus - correct? If yes, then maxed out Revelers Fountain in Amuni produces 67K of mana a day, not 33.5K. This is almost 7.5K daily on a straight per tile basis.

To be fair, evaluating efficiency of set buildings is complicated, as ultimately it will depend on how much relative value (if any) a player attaches to different outputs of the same set. And this part can and does differ player to player.

Another beautiful advantage of the Spire. Not only can you indefinitely win multiple of the same highly efficient buildings only the super rare Library itself needs to be connected to everything else. For every other building you can pick which elements are valuable to you and emphasise placing and connecting those.

I like the Mana Plants and am selling off all my old Huts to now rely just upon the plants and the Carnival.

Endless Scrolls at 5k Scrolls per 2 tiles with no population demand is miles more efficient than Manufactories. I have 8 of them so for 16 tiles I get 40k or Scrolls.

Between my Spire buildings and Pandas I can now cope without any T2 manufactories and no crosstier trades.

 

[Deleted User - 1759805]

Between my Spire buildings and Pandas I can now cope without any T2 manufactories and no crosstier trades.

LOL, I remember saying the same thing about T1 after I saw Mermaid's Paradise. Guess what happened in the next event

And yeah, Spire set is great, no argument from me about that.

 

[DeletedUser8632]

@tesla333
Education is not necessary, if you know how to learn from the job.

Which doesn't include listening to other people who know more about the job? Like, let's say, the Elvenar team telling you on the loading screen its perfectly alright to build many small factories instead of few large ones?

 

[DeletedUser8409]

Which doesn't include listening to other people who know more about the job? Like, let's say, the Elvenar team telling you on the loading screen its perfectly alright to build many small factories instead of few large ones?

That's not what it says. It says if your preferred (i.e. Boosted i.e. Marble instead of Steel at the start) manufactory is small then build more.

It says nothing about using lower chapter ones when you are in a higher chapter.

What next? Are you going to complain that you prefer the look of the Marble manufactories but are Steel so why do you need bigger ones?