1. Good day, Stranger! — Are you new to our forums?

    Have I seen you here before? To participate in or to create forum discussions, you will need your own forum account. Register your account here!

    Dismiss Notice

Fair Trading

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pauly7, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    We could probably debate the finer points of the true value of different goods until the cows come home. As there are variations based on set-up and stage of development there won't ever be a catch-all calculation though.

    Because of all these variations one way or the other I still think trading between any goods somewhere around the 1:1 mark should be acceptable with people having the allowance to trade at different levels if it makes more sense to them. I would imagine that a cap would still be in place because I don't think the game developers wish to allow a bigger player to hand over 100k of goods to a newbie for virtually nothing. Whether that cap was set at 4 times or 16 times or 50 times wouldn't bother me so long as within the cap people could trade as they saw fit and not have the game getting all judgy about it.
     
  2. Daydreamer

    Daydreamer Alchemist

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    You could also just call me a geek. You wouldn't be far off. :p

    Yes, but there is a work around and in about 3 rounds of trades (within a tier) you can practically give a newbie about 100k of goods, even if they started with about 5k only. That's what I meant above with 'crazy trades'. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
  3. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Something else recently occurred to me: There are always three cyclable quests asking you to get X amount of your T1, T2 or T3 boosted goods to win the respective prize. In chapter 6, for e.g. those required amounts are as follows:

    T1 = 2,500
    T2 = 1,800
    T3 = 1,200

    Is it not fair to say that Inno themselves feel that these are probably more reasonable splits between the amount produced of each one?
     
  4. sunshinefantasia

    sunshinefantasia Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    The only way I work out whether it's fair or not is the time it takes to produce it.

    I have seen an increasing amount of cross tier upward trading (T3 - T1 being the most prevalent), even from players who I know are anywhere from dwarves to halflings. I only take cross-tier if the player is small, has made an agreement in advance or is one of my fellowship and struggles after tourney or for an event.

    Yes, they show 3star, but it's inherently unfair because there is no way that 80 T3 goods are the equivalent of 1000 T1 (though Inno think it a 3star trade). I have seen variations of this with huge quantities of T1 or T2 wanted for very small quantities of T3.

    I can produce 1500 dust lvl 15 per 3 hours -v- 1000 steel lvl 15 per 3 hours. I have the same percentage boosts on both. Therefore fair trading should be 1500 T3 = 1000 T1. I haven't included spells and only done what seems to be the majority of cross-tier trades.

    I can't calculate the non-boosted goods, because I don't produce any and, therefore, haven't a clue what lvl15 non-boosted T1 or T3 would produce.

    I know there are additional costs in supplies and coins, but they aren't exactly hard to get, I'm constantly battling to spend both, as I'm at my limit all the time.

    Yes, people are free to choose a trade or not, but should unfair trades be shown as 3star, merely because Inno only took into account one variable.
     
  5. Daydreamer

    Daydreamer Alchemist

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    But the dust factories are 20 squares each at that level, while steel ones are only 9. So you need much more space for the 1500 dust than you do for 1000 steel. Still not a fair trade.
     
  6. Brienne

    Brienne Necromancer

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    At level 19 the Elves Magic dust manufactory and Scrolls manufactory are equal in size and production level. The only difference is the cost of production and MD needs 3328 pop' compared to 2941 for Scrolls.
     
  7. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    With a human city, level 15 steel or planks is 16 squares and level 15 dust, gems or elixir is 20 squares. Marble and crystal is 12 squares, interestingly.
     
  8. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    I am happy with the star system of trades and take/make cross tier trades that are always taken by my neighbours and fellowship.

    Most of my trades are 2* and a few are 3* to compensate for the trader fee when it comes to Marble which is very short in our fellowship and my Neighbours, even with 175 provences scouted.

    If you feel the trade is not fair, just ignore it. Seems very simple to me. :)
     
  9. sunshinefantasia

    sunshinefantasia Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    I don't' understand your point - are you agreeing with me or not? What is still not a fair trade? Are you stating that because dust takes up more room and more supplies and goods, that 100 dust for 1500 steel is a fair trade? Once upgraded, the number of squares taken up is static, time isn't. Coins and supplies are virtually free because I can get those just by visiting.

    Inno base their calculations purely on supplies and goods, which does not take into account variables of levels, boosted percentages and spells. I base mine on time which is a constant and far more valuable than virtual space.

    Another point to ponder - space varies at which level you have a factory, but this isn't taken into account either, merely supplies and goods. I maintain that offering T3 goods for T1 goods - according to Inno's system calculations is inherently unfair, especially if you are Level V player or above - who should be able to produce enough goods to trade within the tier not upwards cross tier.

    One last question: will someone please explain to me - without any calculations - why a player who's reached level V or above needs to trade T3 for T1 or any upwards cross tier?

    I do ignore them, but I already wade through pages of trades from undiscovered neighbours. No, I don't want to just trade with my fellowship, I have neighbours with whom I regularly trade and it's not uncommon to have 30 or 40 pages of trades, with maybe one or two that are truly fair 1-1 2 or 3 star.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
  10. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Yes.... this is what we have said that we do. The conversation is more about not being able to make trades that we would like to.

    Let me answer that by explaining what I do - First and foremost I trade within the same tier. It's the simplest thing to do and makes the most sense, due to the fair trading limits. However, it is very unlikely that I will be producing exactly the right amount of goods at all times to supply me with the right amounts of everything keeping all the tiers seperate. Therefore when I have excesses of crystal or gems compared to marble then I will trade those goods for the planks, steel or whatever I need.

    So if what I have is gems and what I need is steel, then I will make that trade. As the game won't allow me to trade 1:1 then I have to trade at least 4:1. In my case enough people are willing to spend 4-5 times for that trade so the system works.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2018
  11. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Ok, but I have read through the thread and it seems the only trades you are unable to make are T1-T3 1:1, so make the max possible allowed if that is how you want to play. You have to remember that newer players could easily be taken advantage of if the system allowed what are seen as very unfair trades.

    I help fellows get going with max allowed weighted trades made by them as mentioned earlier in the thread also.
    @Pauly7 you could use T2 goods to middle mark your T3 - T1 trades on a 1:1 basis for example 100 Elixir for 100 Crystal, then 100 Crystal for 100 Marble. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  12. sunshinefantasia

    sunshinefantasia Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    I still don't understand Pauly- at Level VII - I have nearly a 1million in each boosted goods, and 200k of each non-boosted goods (by fair 1-1 trading). How on earth can someone at level VI or VII or above not have sufficient goods to trade 1-1 and need to trade upwards?

    I absolutely agree with helping newer or smaller players who are struggling, and I often take those trades (new discovered or fellows) - but those are generally small trades of 10s or even 100; not the 500 T3s = 6000 T1s I've seen a lot of recently.

    My questions really are - why do high level players need to do it? And is it 'fair' to both parties?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  13. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    I'm at chapter 6 and I don't ever have goods left over. I spend whatever I have.

    If I had a million of all these goods I would be winning every tournament.

    Not so. I can't do T3-T2 at 1:1 either. The minimum amount is 2:1 for T3-T2 and 4:1 for T3-T1.

    If I alone could do it then it still wouldn't address the issue, though. The change that I would like to see made is to have the game acknowledge that all trades are equal... otherwise new players will still be misled and what it needs for it to be viable is for everyone to adjust their trading habits.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2017
  14. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    @Pauly7 The trader lets me set a T3-T2 at 1:1 I just tried it. Are you in a fellowship as that could have a bearing.

    Edit, also places at T2-T3 but displays at 0*'s
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  15. Daydreamer

    Daydreamer Alchemist

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Erm... using too many goods for negotiating and catering is a good example of 'how'.

    And yes, we are all (for the most) agreeing that cross tiers are not fair trades. And yes, we are all agreeing that we don't take them, if we don't like them. We are just discussing further, why cross tier, even when offered 4:1 | 16:1, is not fair. This is a discussion (i.e., sharing opinions), not proving a point of being right or wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  16. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Well... this has surprised me. Yes, it does work... Have I just been really stupid or did this change at some point? The same restrictions are still in place for T3-T1, but for T3-T2 I can trade at 1:1 as a three star trade.

    However, the original problem still hasn't changed because it still defaults people to a 1:16 (T3-T1) or a 1:4 (T3-T2) trade and its star system is still in place. So... I can try to change the world myself by trading up T3-T2 and T2-T1 at 1:1, but if it is only me doing it then whilst everyone around me would be reaping the benefit of 1:1 trading, I alone will not.

    I may have to give this some thought... maybe spread the word.
     
  17. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Necromancer

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    A comment from the Elvenar team on this would be nice on what their reasoning is and/or if there is any scope for a change in the future. Perhaps I should put that in the Q&A thread?
     
  18. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Enchanter

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Cross tier trades are not being valued correctly. Generally, if you want to value something, you consider what it costs you to get it. The cost that you consider is something that is valuable to you and not something that you don’t care about much. If we want to have a look at the cost of production, space is much harder to get than coins and supplies. Based on that, space should be used to value each production when allocating stars to trades to show how fair they are.

    I’m constantly balancing my production as I roughly need the same amount of all tiers. I’ve never made a cross tier trade. My T1 uses 78 squares, T2 80 squares and T3 72 squares. Based on my experience a fair cross tier trade would be 1:1 or very close to that.
     
    LadyHavva likes this.
  19. LadyHavva

    LadyHavva Illusionist

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Yes, when you have just started the game and you are just building your t2's, you can produce only very small amounts, but soon that changes. I also produce about equal amounts of each tier and think something like 1:1 or 1:1,2 would be fairer. or perhaps 1,5 if you want to help the new players get through that first 3 chapters.
     
  20. Kaliartis

    Kaliartis Conjurer

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Oh what a subject and debate you opened here Pauly... what's fair and what's not... I guess that everything is subjective (like eveything else in the world...). The ratings we have, as someone said very well before, are based on how many supplies and coins are needed to produce. Another thing that should be taken (and that is I think) into consideration is the pop/culture needed to build those manufactories to begin with. At lvl 23 for ex for a Steel you need 3317 pop / 967 culture, Scroll you need 5159 pop / 1504 culture and for Dust 7076 pop / 2062 culture, which means that many players are more likely to have more T1 than T3 built, since you need almost double the amount of population and culture to build the T3s.

    I am personally good with Innos ratings and to be honest I sometimes do close cross tier trades (T1-T2 or T2-T3) to recover from a tournament usually, not overdoing or abusing it and always being carefull to propose a good 3 stars trade to help it go faster which are usually taken pretty quick mainly by my good neighbors.. Although... I have been called a "bad player" by one former fellow because she said I do some cross tiers occasionally so I am not good enough apparently...lol. and this former player's city is 90% bought with diamonds by the way... but that's another story and debate here! :D

    What's important I think is according to your needs and beliefs if your trades are taken that means that someone needed them and that's a win win I believe!

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018

Top