AW's level influence on hardness of fights ?

[DeletedUser]

As i have watched a good deal of videos on the "new" tournament and also read around, i can see that the AW's levels influence the hardness of the fights.

But i wonder how much it affects it ?

It seams silly to upgrade Monastery for troop health if it just make my fights equally harder. And what about the fight boosting ones like Dragon Abbey for Mages ?

So what's the ca. percentage ?

 

[Wibbly Woo]

It doesn’t make the fights harder, as I understand it. It makes them more expensive by making the squad sizes larger: yours and the enemies.

 

[Far Reach]

As @Wibbly Woo says, AW levels don't affect the relative size of your army to the enemy - but they do affect the sizes of both armies (and therefore your total losses). They also affect catering costs.

Each AW level increases troop losses/catering costs by 0.3%. [The cost is multiplied by 1 + (#AW_levels*0.003)]. The Martial Monastery is still clearly beneficial.

Incidentally, the actual tournament calculations were never shared by Inno, but have been worked out (by @MinMax Gamer). His formula has been verified by lots of people (including myself).

 

[FieryArien]

It’s as @Wibbly Woo says - the fights themselves don’t get harder. Replacement of your losses gets harder. That’s because you (AND your enemy) take more troops to the battle. The same percentage loss then results in more individual lost troops, that need to be produced again.

Anyway, I hope I won’t get into trouble by posting the following link. I believe that if you want to understand the system, this is the right page to read:

Spoiler: External link to MinMax Gamer’s page

https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-and-spire-requirements-2020/

As for Wonders: obviously wonders that allow you to get more troops are easy choice (training speed, bonus % for all production). Wonders boosting your ranged units are also often mentioned. And the Sanctuary/Monastery of course. Everything is debatable, you’ll have to make your own conclusions anyway. ;-)

 

[Wibbly Woo]

Each AW level increases troop losses/catering costs by 0.3%. [The cost is multiplied by 1 + (#AW_levels*0.003)]. The Martial Monastery is still clearly beneficial.

Strictly speaking the Martial Monastery reduces your losses by 0.45% per additional level in the first exchange of fire, and by fractionally more in each successive round. Ignoring rune circle levels, where the reduction is larger, of course.

The Martial Monastery/Sanctuary is the one wonder that I suspect is beneficial for every city, except the tiny spire catering chapter 3 specialist.

 

[DeletedUser]

That i have to have explained in another way, because i don't understand it when looking at the wonders and reading what they do.

So, the Dragon Abbey gives me at level 11 18% increased damage against the enemy. How does that relate to having more troops or/and more troops lost, when my Mages' strength is higher. - To me i will still have the upper hand, since my Mages are stronger ?

Regarding the Monastery/sanctuary, in reality it only gives me 0.15% - that though still is a win/gain, though not much.

If you were to get into trouble @FieryArien for this, then there's no point to the forums, because there will be not help to get from them. It would then be time to move to another forum, since what the words are, it's only this en-forum that has turned itself upside down and almost nothing is allowed anymore. I though believe that @MinMax Gamer 's links are legit still

And then the last AW's, those which gives extra troops. What about my Pyramid which gives me 269 Treants every 3 hours at level 8, how much am i punished for that ?

 

[Wibbly Woo]

@Elivar i am not sure how you are arriving at 0.15%. I am getting 0.45% from 0.75% more hit points, reducing casualties and 0.3% larger squad size increasing casualties.

There are compounding effects in an exchange of fire scenario which means that the improvement would actually be better than the naive approximation, and by rights it should be multiplicative not additive. But for a coarse estimate of value, the 0.45% should be good enough to make a judgement.

Wonders giving additional troops are probably worth it if you are using the troops given, and are obviously not worth it if you aren’t. As I understand it, heavy melee basically falls out of use as you level and first striker takes more and more importance.

 

[FieryArien]

And then the last AW's, those which gives extra troops. What about my Pyramid which gives me 269 Treants every 3 hours at level 8, how much am i punished for that ?

Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean these wonders when I wrote about bonus production. There is Simia Sapiens wonder that gives bonus troops upon collecting from Barracks, Tr. Grounds and Merc. Camp. It works just like Brown bear, just with different percentage and without feeding.

To build wonders which directly produce troops can be more harmful than beneficial. I personally wouldn’t build Pyramid of Purification for example. (In fact had it in my main city and I deleted it shortly after the new tournament came.)

As for the rest - comparing gain and benefit. This is tricky, because the simple question “what is the impact of adding this particular one wonder level” depends heavily on the other variables in the formula.

The best way is to download MinMax Gamer’s spreadsheet and play with the real values taken from your city.

 

[Pauly7]

The best way is to download MinMax Gamer’s spreadsheet and play with the real values taken from your city.

This. That's the only way to be sure.

As a rule of thumb, though, you have to be able to see a tangible benefit to your tournament playstyle. If you're a fighter and you use mages a lot of the time, then Dragon Abbey will be good to upgrade. Remember that it also gives you a lot of mana. The mana output can become your sole source, so ask yourself whether an upgraded Dragon Abbey can lead to other mana producing buildings being deleted, which then leads to more extra space to build more armouries or manufactories (or something else) which increases your tournament potency. If you are already making enough mana from your DA and have no other mana providers, then that benefit can be stripped from your thinking going forwards.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Elivar i am not sure how you are arriving at 0.15%. I am getting 0.45% from 0.75% more hit points, reducing casualties and 0.3% larger squad size increasing casualties.

There are compounding effects in an exchange of fire scenario which means that the improvement would actually be better than the naive approximation, and by rights it should be multiplicative not additive. But for a coarse estimate of value, the 0.45% should be good enough to make a judgement.

Wonders giving additional troops are probably worth it if you are using the troops given, and are obviously not worth it if you aren’t. As I understand it, heavy melee basically falls out of use as you level and first striker takes more and more importance.

So the 0.45 was after the 0.30 reduction ?

I can't see my main city Monastery at the moment, it's upgrading, but my ch12 city is at level 8; 110.5%

How does this add up, or is understood ?

 

[DeletedUser]

Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean these wonders when I wrote about bonus production. There is Simia Sapiens wonder that gives bonus troops upon collecting from Barracks, Tr. Grounds and Merc. Camp. It works just like Brown bear, just with different percentage and without feeding.

To build wonders which directly produce troops can be more harmful than beneficial. I personally wouldn’t build Pyramid of Purification for example. (In fact had it in my main city and I deleted it shortly after the new tournament came.)

As for the rest - comparing gain and benefit. This is tricky, because the simple question “what is the impact of adding this particular one wonder level” depends heavily on the other variables in the formula.

The best way is to download MinMax Gamer’s spreadsheet and play with the real values taken from your city.

Hmm, i have Pyramid because of extra sentient goods per Orc pickup and then, it gives Treants. I know that about striking first, but i'm not sure yet, so my Treants will be used. I don't produce them though.

I have looked at MinMax's spreadsheet some time ago, but couldn't figure out exactly what numbers to put. And also, i still need to understand what it is the AW levels do to the fights, because i need to understand what i have to work with and how what affects the other. Otherwise it's not easy to compare and weigh for or against other bonuses an AW gives.

And yes, i have Simia also, but that was because of sentient goods decay reduction. I used to cater/negotiate all encounters.

 

[DeletedUser]

This. That's the only way to be sure.

As a rule of thumb, though, you have to be able to see a tangible benefit to your tournament playstyle. If you're a fighter and you use mages a lot of the time, then Dragon Abbey will be good to upgrade. Remember that it also gives you a lot of mana. The mana output can become your sole source, so ask yourself whether an upgraded Dragon Abbey can lead to other mana producing buildings being deleted, which then leads to more extra space to build more armouries or manufactories (or something else) which increases your tournament potency. If you are already making enough mana from your DA and have no other mana providers, then that benefit can be stripped from your thinking going forwards.

But we then again end up with that some troops are favoured in different tournaments. In marble here there has been mostly Heavy Melee, so Blossoms were the choice. Though the last 6th round was festered with Mistwalkers most of the fights, but then it overall was more suitable to use Light Range.

I have also been looking at all those numbers attack/defence bonuses aso., but doesn't seam to add up completely. That's why i don't yet see how it's always strike first that has the upper hand. I of course know i don't have all troops 3* yet. Working on the researches to get to them.

 

[Pauly7]

But we then again end up with that some troops are favoured in different tournaments. In marble here there has been mostly Heavy Melee, so Blossoms were the choice. Though the last 6th round was festered with Mistwalkers most of the fights, but then it overall was more suitable to use Light Range.

I have also been looking at all those numbers attack/defence bonuses aso., but doesn't seam to add up completely. That's why i don't yet see how it's always strike first that has the upper hand. I of course know i don't have all troops 3* yet. Working on the researches to get to them.

The best thing you can do is get to grips with MinMax's tournament calculator to get the definitive answer, but if you're fighting then the main military wonders (Sanctuary/Monastery, Needles, Flying Academy, Temple of the Toads, Dragon Abbey, Simia Sapiens) are all usually going to be worth it. There comes a point, when you get into higher tournament provinces, that it becomes less cut and dried, but if you're not going up above the 30th province then you shouldn't have much to worry about.

 

[DeletedUser]

The best thing you can do is get to grips with MinMax's tournament calculator to get the definitive answer, but if you're fighting then the main military wonders (Sanctuary/Monastery, Needles, Flying Academy, Temple of the Toads, Dragon Abbey, Simia Sapiens) are all usually going to be worth it. There comes a point, when you get into higher tournament provinces, that it becomes less cut and dried, but if you're not going up above the 30th province then you shouldn't have much to worry about.

But as i understand it, then i need the first province, first round, Squad Size number to use it ?

And when we're at it, where can i see total expansions in use ?

Chapter Progress should be completed research in the chapter ?

And for it to work, i figure i don't need Spire Squad Size to make it calculate Tournament ?

EDIT: At the moment i don't have enough troops to go that many provinces. 10, 6 rounds i can easily do know. So it's about getting them to last longer at the moment. Monastery only at level 11. 5 Armories at max level. Waiting to get the goods to open research to upgrade them more. But then comes Needles and blah blah blah which needs upgrading for speed

 

[Giraffi]

MinMax’s spreadsheet gives you the starter numbers for goods and squad sizes. Keep that in mind. Like others have said, upgrading AWs do not make battles more difficult, but it does make it more expensive. More expensive means you will loose more troops if you loose as the squad sizes in play are bigger. If you have a fixed number of units to start with, that means you will be able to do less provinces before you run out of troops.

I have no idea how the terrain is affected with a better game state, but the star grading of enemies are fixed. You see 3 star enemies from province 11 onwards in tournament.

 

[Pauly7]

But as i understand it, then i need the first province, first round, Squad Size number to use it ?

Yes, check that at the start of a tournament.

And when we're at it, where can i see total expansions in use ?

You can check that on Elvenstats. Telling the spreadsheet the cost of your next premium expansion will tell it how many of those you have already.

Chapter Progress should be completed research in the chapter ?

Tell it the chapter your're in, then count the number of mandatory researches you have so far completed in your current chapter. Ignore optional squad size and expansion researches.

 

[DeletedUser]

MinMax’s spreadsheet gives you the starter numbers for goods and squad sizes. Keep that in mind. Like others have said, upgrading AWs do not make battles more difficult, but it does make it more expensive. More expensive means you will loose more troops if you loose as the squad sizes in play are bigger. If you have a fixed number of units to start with, that means you will be able to do less provinces before you run out of troops.

I have no idea how the terrain is affected with a better game state, but the star grading of enemies are fixed. You see 3 star enemies from province 11 onwards in tournament.

If that's the only thing, then i don't understand the why there's so much fuzz about it, because if i have the best troops and will beat the enemy good and beyond back the stone age, i can't see the problem. Yes the losses might be bigger, bot both squads are bigger, so the only problem i see is having a production setup which produces enough troops to fill a squad when needed.

And then we of course get into manual vs. auto, where auto costs more.

And for the record. I'm very fine by my 10 provinces, 6 rounds. I only this time got bored staring at my pile of goods and went 15 more province. Only 2 rounds though

I of course will keep upgrading my production facilities and then i will go more provinces as i see fit each week. KP's make AW's

 

[Pauly7]

EDIT: At the moment i don't have enough troops to go that many provinces. 10, 6 rounds i can easily do know. So it's about getting them to last longer at the moment. Monastery only at level 11. 5 Armories at max level. Waiting to get the goods to open research to upgrade them more. But then comes Needles and blah blah blah which needs upgrading for speed

If you're stopping at 10 provinces then you will reach a point (if you're not there already) that you're producing more troops than you're using. If that gets to be the case then technically there should be no need for upgrading any AWs.

 

[DeletedUser]

If you're stopping at 10 provinces then you will reach a point (if you're not there already) that you're producing more troops than you're using. If that gets to be the case then technically there should be no need for upgrading any AWs.

Let me correct so it's clear; I can easily do 10 provinces, 6 rounds now. I am not left with almost no troops anymore.

So my point now is to make them last longer, which is Monastery/Sanctuary. When that is upgraded "enough" (i don't know what that means), then i will return and upgrade the other AW's that affect production size and speed. And also fighting strength boost, like Dragon Abbey.

I will keep upgrading all facilities for fighting, because if can sustain it according to how much i play the game, then i will use those troops to go more provinces and also use some in the Spire.

 

[CrazyWizard]

If that's the only thing, then i don't understand the why there's so much fuzz about it, because if i have the best troops and will beat the enemy good and beyond back the stone age, i can't see the problem. Yes the losses might be bigger, bot both squads are bigger, so the only problem i see is having a production setup which produces enough troops to fill a squad when needed.

And then we of course get into manual vs. auto, where auto costs more.

And for the record. I'm very fine by my 10 provinces, 6 rounds. I only this time got bored staring at my pile of goods and went 15 more province. Only 2 rounds though

I of course will keep upgrading my production facilities and then i will go more provinces as i see fit each week. KP's make AW's

In all cases you loose for example 10% of your SS in a battle.

But depending on your city your SS can be twice, trice or even more than that.
here an example of a battle in my city that I am doing right now

Imagine another player in the same chapter having 1/3 of the tournament SS
10% of 5*120K = 60.000 = 13.7 squads

10% of 5*40K = 20.000 = 4.5 squads

Thats a pretty big difference between 2 players in the same chapter.

In general, combat wonders are beneficial, assuming you are a fighter.
All the others will be detrimental for your fighting abilities.