Squad Size Upgrades should not be optional!

[DeletedUser227]

People should not be able to avoid Squad Size techs for an advantage in Tournaments.

Either force everyone to unlock every Squad Size tech, or tie Catering costs to current tech era instead of Squad Size.

The current system is completely unfair, especially for players who started before tournaments came out. Fix this!

Posted in general discussion because I would like to hear other player's opinions.

 

[cwgiii]

I am not sure that I agree. I am open to discussion though.

I am a non-fighter (mainly because of time involved to fight manually and the incredible inability to win early on). I had read that auto-fight was basically useless so manual fighting was the way to go, if fighting was chosen. I know that it used to be, and still remains very expensive to cater, from a resource point of view. But, it is simply easier for me to cater, so that is the choice I made (over two years ago). Because of that, I have specifically built my city accordingly over the passing years (minimizing military structures, maximizing goods production, and investing is Ancient Wonders that continue those themes). I also had absolutely no interest (or incentive) to invest valuable KPs into tech that was not going to be used by me and was explicitly designed to be optional.

Since I do not fight, I really have no experience, but I have ready the various threads posted on the forums. If I remember correctly, after the devs "re-balanced" fighting for either provinces or tournaments became easier and the other may have become more difficult (depending on chapter, I am sure). There are multiple arguments whether this was a true balancing or not. However, I would personally feel that a retroactive decision to force squad size research would be very unfair to those of us that chose the more expensive path of catering (and invested time, planning, and resorces accordingly).

This game is all about choices (differing modes of play, different balancing of population, culture, production structures, different uses of space, different participation (or lack of participation) in tournaments, events, trades, etc.).

Bottom line: there are advantages to military strategies and advantages to non-military ones. Catering costs more, but there is no need to invest in military research/structures/etc. Military requires more research, but you don't have to spend the resources to cater. That seems like a certain form of balance and fairness.

All of this is just my humble opinion.

 

[DeletedUser227]

I am also mostly a non-fighter. I picked up Squad Size upgrades earlier in the game, before Tournaments PUNISHED you for taking them.

Why should I be punished for making a reasonable decision? I never expected to be PUNISHED for researching technologies.

Why should players that started after me have a tremendous advantage over me in tournaments?

I invested down the path of catering, and I totally get SCREWED because I picked up techs I assumed were harmless before AWs or Tournaments were released.

You were given a choice. I am not presented with the same choice. This is unfair.

I also offered a second suggestion, such as tying Catering requirements to tech chapter and not squad size.

 

[Killiak]

I have previously stated that, since it was shown that Elementals mandatory tech upgrades are very catering-costly in tournaments whilst not equally troop-effective, the devs need to take a long and hard look at the balance.

I have had plenty to say on troop effectiveness, autofight AI, catering costs and enemy unit variety. I won't rehash it here, it has been argued and (mathematically) proven enough by now.

I stand with kery on this one.

 

[cwgiii]

I picked up the first several as well, before I even realized that they were optional.

I am not sure why you feel that you are being punished. Can you explain? If I am not mistaken, the optional squad size researches were optional from the beginning (at least for 2+ years). And they still are optional. So, how do newbies have the advantage? I, you, and they, had (and have) the same choice.

 

[Killiak]

I picked up the first several as well, before I even realized that they were optional.

I am not sure why you feel that you are being punished. Can you explain? If I am not mistaken, the optional squad size researches were optional from the beginning (at least for 2+ years). And they still are optional. So, how do newbies have the advantage? I, you, and they, had (and have) the same choice.

Because back then, tournaments did not exist in the current form.
And because it has been shown that NOT getting these squad upgrades will lead to weaker enemies and much cheaper catering costs in tournaments.

Now, if you started 2 years ago, you did not know that tournaments were coming like this and that squad upgrades would negatively affect the catering cost ratio. They WERE effective for fighting provinces, so people got the upgrades. Anyone starting the game now will have an advantage in catering if they ignore the optional upgrades, because of the current state of affairs/knowledge, meaning they can more easilly score higher in the tournament.

So no, it's not the same choice. And it never will be. (untill Inno restores the balance anyway)

 

[cwgiii]

But if you DID choose to research the squad size upgrades, then you DID (and still do) have the advantage in fighting (both in provinces and tournaments).

Now, the advantage may not be balanced between tournament play and province play, but that is a different issue (IMHO).

 

[Killiak]

But if you DID choose to research the squad size upgrades, then you DID (and still do) have the advantage in fighting (both in provinces and tournaments).

Now, the advantage may not be balanced between tournament play and province play, but that is a different issue (IMHO).

No, you do not have the advantage in fighting tournaments. Squad upgrades are terrible for tournaments, wether it's for catering or for fighting. Both the enemy troop and the catering costs grow more than your troops do. Especially once you get to "higher" stars per province.

Regular provinces are far more linear and therefor hardly matter.

 

[Deleted User - 106219]

But if you DID choose to research the squad size upgrades, then you DID (and still do) have the advantage in fighting (both in provinces and tournaments).

Now, the advantage may not be balanced between tournament play and province play, but that is a different issue (IMHO).

Squad Size upgrades do NOT give any advantage in tournaments. Quite the opposite - they HURT you in tournaments. Tournament squad size is based on your squad size. For example:
- You have regular squad size 100. In the first tournament province your squad size is 5% of that, so just 5. Enemy squad size is 80% of your tournament squad size, so 4 (80% of 5)
- You have regular squad size 1000. In the first tournament province your squad size is 5% of that, so just 50. Enemy squad size is 80% of your tournament squad size, so 40 (80% of 5)
In the latter case the losses are greater (thus you need to spend more Supplies on training new troops) and the catering costs are much higher. At the same time the rewards are the same.

 

[cwgiii]

No, you do not have the advantage in fighting tournaments. Squad upgrades are terrible for tournaments, wether it's for catering or for fighting.

On the face, it does seem that squad size upgrades should help with tournaments. But I can't speak to this in regard to fighting (either in tournaments or provinces), because I don't fight. Sorry for my ignorance. Maybe that does need to be addressed.

However, I do not agree with retroactively requiring tech research (with squad size or other research that has been forced in the past).

Maybe the difficulty in tournaments does need to be tied to chapter. But my argument still stands that there are advantages to deciding fighting strategies vs. non-fighting strategies and there are like disadvantages to both.

The game is constantly evolving. I personally like this in most cases as I believe most players do (hence the demand for new chapters / guest races / events and such). We all experience the game at different points. I do not necessarily feel that this is not fair or fair, just a process.

 

[Killiak]

The game is constantly evolving. I personally like this in most cases as I believe most players do (hence the demand for new chapters / guest races / events and such). We all experience the game at different points. I do not necessarily feel that this is not fair or fair, just a process.

At this point, that process is skewed, resulting in advantages for some in the more competitive aspects of the game. Ones you cannot make up for in any way. Kery is asking for a very logical fix for it.
If difficulty is tied to chapter, then you can freely decide wether or not you want to invest in Fighting or Catering, because the tech will be no issue and it will be all about building choices.

Which is just perfect for a game about building a city.

 

[m4rt1n]

I use the fighting route mostly and have taken all the optional squad size upgrades to make it possible to fight in regular provinces.

I'm currently at the latter end of chapter 8 and have unlocked 241 provinces and can just win the fights on yellow.

In the tournaments however I have noticed the catering and troop loss has drastically increased in size, meaning I now only just manage 2000 points per tourney, as in earlier chapters sometimes I could easily hit 3000 points in a tourney mainly with fighting.

 

[DeletedUser]

Even though I have completed all the techs up to my current chapter ( including the squad size ones ), I don't think changing those techs to required techs is a good idea. This is largely due to my experiences with the developers heavy handed addition of new required techs far back in the tech tree in the past. The fact that when they do so, all advancement in the tech tree is frozen until the player goes back and completes all the newly added required techs has really angered people in the past.

If they can be convinced to re-balance in another way ( if needed ) that is fine with me. But making optional techs required is probably not the best idea.

 

[DeletedUser227]

I honestly don't care what solution they go with, but the current system is garbage and needs an overhaul.

Not only did I not know tournament were coming, AWs didn't even exist so I had NOTHING better to put the KPs into at the time.

It's complete crap that someone can gain a VERY SIGNIFICANT advantage over a RANK 1 player who's been around since BETA by completely AVOIDING content that is supposed to give you an ADVANTAGE.

Why should someone several Chapters earlier than me have an easier time in tournaments? HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE!? From a gameplay, logic or lore perspective it's INSANITY!