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Answered Ranger I VS Elite Archers

AstralSoul

Illusionist
Hey,

I have been studying these two, just researched Rangers. Their 4 reach and 20 initiative makes it very substantial.

Do you folks think, that with good Needles (level 19 so far), a few ELR, and a couple of d. armorers and the birds feed of course. Tactics are to aggro the enemy. Is it worth hitting a bit softer (all the buff ups will help to hit more), versus the extra reach and initiative? As soon as I research the upgraded mercenary camp, I'll compare how efficient it goes about creating these units (Needles after all only affect barracks.)
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
in my opinion, merc camps and training grounds suck. it's a shame that this game and some of the websites lead people to believe they need that garbage in their cities. most cities are likely to have AT LEAST a 6th level needles by the time they can build a flying academy so they are sacrificing +30% troop production just for blossom mages and some other units that are only slightly better than barracks units and only in a few cases. in many cases, camp and grounds units are worse than barracks units-they often do less damage and have less health, we hardly ever fight units that are all the same type to take good advantage of offense and defense bonuses, humans already have heavy melee units that can attack from 2 hexes away and mages from 5. cerbs are useless unless you just wanna trade 1 cerb for 1 priest (longer range isn't needed vs sorceresses) (let's storm the castle one man at a time and see how that goes, duh!:)
sherman tanks can win the war. you don't need over-engineered cromwells, panzers, and tigers, especially when they come at higher production costs, like using more land, people, kp, etc.

no way in hell are camp and grounds units 30% better. i doubt they are more than 15% better. a flying acad and victory springs are always going to start well behind your needles and will only catch up if you stop improving needles or use illegal push accounts to get enough kp to fully upgrade 2 or more of those wonders
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
@AstralSoul, Needles level 19 in Woodelves chapter is crazy! ;-) While I don't agree with @yo momma love me's general harsh assessment of the specialized military buildings*), in your particular case it's true. You don't need them. Your barracks training speed is just too superior. You can compensate of course, if you want, but I really wouldn't bother until the specialized units get serious upgrades.

*) I'm in Elvenar chapter, all my units are three stars (well, Frogs will be early next week) and I use basically all of them. They can really shine in some tournaments. BUT I haven't even built Mercenary Camp until the units had 2 stars upgrades. And my Training Ground was more like Cerberus Ground for awfully long time. ;-)
 

m4rt1n

Adept
I use level 3 Rangers in steel and they out preform both Crossbowmen and Poison Dryads.

As for other Merc troops Frogs level 3 destroy level 3 Cerberus with barely a scratch so wouldn't be without either.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
Is there a good reference for fighting matchups that take into account which troop is good vs. which baddie that takes into account star levels in addition to just baddie type?
 

m4rt1n

Adept
I use the damage rating pop up myself, hover over a particular troop.
 

alsael

Enchanter
well,I'm in elvenar too,and I use troops from all 3 military buildings.It also depends what race your troops are.
e.g the human mage is one of the best in the game,but banshee is way better than the barracks elven mage.Also the 3-stars vallorian guard is a good troop to be used for the very slow Treant.
It's a shame you can't train orc troops in large quatities,as the simple orcs are precious,for spire and the last chapter.
Do not discard blossom mages.Used in the right tourney they will shine.
Frogs are becoming one of my favorite troops:)
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
Is there a good reference for fighting matchups that take into account which troop is good vs. which baddie that takes into account star levels in addition to just baddie type?
a better question would be to ask about the priorities that the AI uses for targeting.
any good wartime consigliere should know them but i don't think sites like "gems" know crap about that.
little tip-heavy melee are often the best units to fight heavy melee.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
in my opinion, merc camps and training grounds suck. it's a shame that this game and some of the websites lead people to believe they need that garbage in their cities. most cities are likely to have AT LEAST a 6th level needles by the time they can build a flying academy so they are sacrificing +30% troop production just for blossom mages and some other units that are only slightly better than barracks units and only in a few cases. in many cases, camp and grounds units are worse than barracks units-they often do less damage and have less health, we hardly ever fight units that are all the same type to take good advantage of offense and defense bonuses, humans already have heavy melee units that can attack from 2 hexes away and mages from 5. cerbs are useless unless you just wanna trade 1 cerb for 1 priest (longer range isn't needed vs sorceresses) (let's storm the castle one man at a time and see how that goes, duh!:)
sherman tanks can win the war. you don't need over-engineered cromwells, panzers, and tigers, especially when they come at higher production costs, like using more land, people, kp, etc.

no way in hell are camp and grounds units 30% better. i doubt they are more than 15% better. a flying acad and victory springs are always going to start well behind your needles and will only catch up if you stop improving needles or use illegal push accounts to get enough kp to fully upgrade 2 or more of those wonders

Yup.... is what I am starting to thing. My Needles is leveling up to level 21 atm, and I won't stop until it reaches level 30. For this reason alone, I mainly do barracks, true. In the last tourneys, I used barracks versions of all and did fine. I have grounds, and camp as they fit. The ranged called my attention, but with powerful Needles as mine. (But that 20 initiative was juicy.)

@AstralSoul, Needles level 19 in Woodelves chapter is crazy! ;-) While I don't agree with @yo momma love me's general harsh assessment of the specialized military buildings*), in your particular case it's true. You don't need them. Your barracks training speed is just too superior. You can compensate of course, if you want, but I really wouldn't bother until the specialized units get serious upgrades.

*) I'm in Elvenar chapter, all my units are three stars (well, Frogs will be early next week) and I use basically all of them. They can really shine in some tournaments. BUT I haven't even built Mercenary Camp until the units had 2 stars upgrades. And my Training Ground was more like Cerberus Ground for awfully long time. ;-)

Yeah, I stalled for a month or so, now it's leveling to 21, and as I said, not stopping, is worth every level. Call me obsessed, but after weeks, and months, they extra speed from the Needles will save hour hours worth of boosters, days...

I pay good attention to AW. I have all of them so far. Military ones, BTG, and M. Halls, are level 7, the rest level 6.

well,I'm in elvenar too,and I use troops from all 3 military buildings.It also depends what race your troops are.
e.g the human mage is one of the best in the game,but banshee is way better than the barracks elven mage.Also the 3-stars vallorian guard is a good troop to be used for the very slow Treant.
It's a shame you can't train orc troops in large quatities,as the simple orcs are precious,for spire and the last chapter.
Do not discard blossom mages.Used in the right tourney they will shine.
Frogs are becoming one of my favorite troops:)

Indeed... I haven't created a single orc unit yet... and I will never do. I think the bears and something else generates them, I have like 5 and 7 squads of those. I use them basically to die, to salvage one more tournament fight without catering.
 

Sir Derf

Adept
a better question would be to ask about the priorities that the AI uses for targeting.
any good wartime consigliere should know them but i don't think sites like "gems" know crap about that.
little tip-heavy melee are often the best units to fight heavy melee.
Thank you for your engagement in the dialogue. No offense, but this is a reply that
  1. Avoids answering my question by raising what purports to be a different, more important question, which isn;t separate and actually is an underlying part of my question, and then
  2. Implies that a site does not exist while simultaneously indicating that there are people who could have the information to place on a site.
 

DeletedUser4149

Guest
Sir Derf, ok, derf. but if you wanna get all lawyer-like, your original question was off topic and guilty of 1. Avoids answering the question
as for 2., it's a fact that "gems" doesn't have that info posted and i have that info.
i was curious who else figured out targeting priorities since i haven't seen them posted anywhere.
but, since you're implying that you don't wanna know...
the answer to your question is "no". i don't think anyone else thought an answer to that question was worth posting
 

Paladestar

Enchanter
The problem with a lot of the TG and MC units is that by the time you get them, you have the 3* versions of the barracks units, so the barracks units still perform better. This can change in some cases when you get your TG and MC units to 2*, but it's really when you get them to 3*. that they come alive.

I'm in the happy position where I have all units at 3* and have Martial Monastery, all training speed and all damage wonders at level 30. I've taken a screenshot of my units screen and added it to this post a little further below. My main go-to units are outlined in green, situationally useful units (niche units) are outlined in yellow, units I only use to spare the others, because I get them for free from my wonders are outlined in red. Units that aren't outlined I do not use.

elvenar-units.png


When you get the 3* versions of the MC units they're pretty much the best units for the majority of encounters (except Drone Riders). Some examples:

Rangers
Rangers are awesome for their extra movement and high initiative. Their enemy defense debuff gives them very strong focus-fire power, even against units they're not strictly designed to counter. You might get a fight where the enemy has one or two heavy ranged or light melee units, but the rest of the enemy team is perfect for Rangers, no problem, being able to attack first you can usually focus-fire these rogue units down with the 30% debuff before they get to attack you (map layout contingent). Only one enemy unit in the whole game is faster (higher initiative) than the Ranger, the Mist Walker.

Frogs
Frogs are great at taking out enemy units from afar, often being able to kill the enemy team without being hit back, but you need to be mindful of the cliff-edge (applies to all ranged units really, but especially the ones with lower base health and attack like frogs). Frogs are great at resisting light melee attacks, so if you're going to let anything hit them, try to make sure it's a light melee unit. Light ranged hurt a bit more and other heavy ranged can hurt more still. The good thing with frogs is that they're faster than the Cerberus (the only light melee unit that can reach them on the first turn, again, map layout contingent), faster than all heavy melee, faster than all other heavy ranged.

So pick your targets well and you can kill most enemies before they hit you. Things like enemy cannoneers should be prioritised over light melee and light ranged, especially if there's more than one of them (they have a nasty debuff, that makes your unit take more damage for the rest of the turn), all other heavy ranged can't reach you on turn one, so if there's only one or two other heavy ranged kill any light ranged next. It's really all about knowing what it takes to drop an enemy unit and prioritising accordingly to kill them before they reach you.

The 3* frogs have a very powerful debuff, like the Rangers, this let's them focus down units that they're not really supposed to counter, like heavy melee or the odd mage. Fights with one enemy mage should be no problem with frogs, sometimes even two, fights with many heavy melee are no problem too, depending on exactly what they are. In terms of frogs, there's weak heavy melee and tough heavy melee. Knights and Swamp Monsters are the tough ones, resist heavy ranged attacks really well. If there's two of these in the enemy team, should still be an easy takedown before they reach you, three of them can be taken down with the right map, otherwise there might still be one weak one left alive that reaches you and does some damage. 1* and 2* frogs don't have this debuff, so mage units and the tough heavy melee are lot more challenging. I'd avoid encounters with the tough heavy melee and mages until you have 3* frogs.

As I touched on above, be aware of the cliff-edge with your frogs (and other ranged units), the point where the enemy team can live long enough to reach your units and do damage. You might be able to beat a certain encounter using auto-fight in a tournament on round 4 with no or just minimal losses, but maybe on round 5 or round 6 the enemy tough heavy melee can get to you before you kill them off and you'll lose half your team. Be ready to switch things up if you can see the cliff-edge coming.

Orc Strategist
If an enemy team consists of mostly light ranged, your frogs will take a bit of a beating before they can attack (the LR always get to attack the frogs first, depending on the map layout), Orc Strategists resist light ranged attacks really well and have more HP so you'll take less losses than using frogs. They also hit light ranged harder than frogs and will usually be able to attack the enemy light ranged on turn one as they'll already have moved in range to attack you. This (facing a light ranged loaded enemy team) is one of the niches that Orc Strategists can fill really well.


Note: I don't have a human city so my viewpoint is for elves only.
 
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