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Question to the Game Mods/Developers...

Sir Derf

Artisan
Figure this is the softer way, better than the verboten having forum members openly discussing past interactions/conversations with Mods/Tech Support, and if I were to ask directly through a Tech Support ticket or directed conversation, well, then I would possibly know but wouldn't be able to share with the rest of you...


So, asking to the Forum Mods to raise with the Game Mods/Developers and report back...


Various players have described experiencing periods of unlikely outcomes of RNG-moderated recipe rotations in the Magic Academy (and other areas, but let's focus on just the MA recipes). Some of these players describe having raised official inquiries and possibly receiving feedback. Some of these players additionally describe seeing improved outcomes afterwards.

Questions
  • Are there any factors beyond already possessing a certain building/base that are under a player's control that can influence the probability of different recipes appearing?
  • Given equal player-controlled factors, should all players expect the same weighting of the RNG for the appearance of recipes? (For example, are you A/B testing different recipe RNG weightings among different groups of players?)
  • Have there been problems in the past that have effected individual player's experiences with the recipe RNG?
  • Have there been occasions in the past where Mods/Devs have tweaked something to change an individual player's experiences with the recipe RNG?
  • Are there known conditions that might currently be effecting individual player's experiences with the recipe RNG?
  • Whether known or unknown, if a player suspects there could be a problem with that player's experiences with the recipe RNG, what, if any, information would be required at a minimum? What, if any, information would be helpful

If we could get feed back on any of the above, I (and I'm sure others) would appreciate it.

Thank you.
 

Herodite

Senior Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
Greetings @Sir Derf this has been a rather interesting conversation in recent days!

Im going to get some more information for you, however I know @Silmaril did make comment in the thread we are discussing:

"There are some small things that can really help to keep the recipe's flowing.
Craft the items that you do not want, sounds ironic, but things like the Chess Set will keep revolving unless you have it placed in your City or in your Inventory. The same can be said for Building Bases of the evolving buildings that spin around in the same way.
By having these sit in your Inventory they are taken out of the equation, thus letting other recipe's become more common.
Also making sure that at every reset throughout the day that you have completed any Crafting, so that all five windows can give new recipe's will of course also help to get the most out of them.."

This should answer one or two of your questions, but like I say, let me go and get some further information and come back to you :)

Kind Regards

Herodite.
 

Sir Derf

Artisan
Well, technically the comments about the Chess Set and Evolving Building Bases confirms the givens of my first bullet, but without indicating that these are the only factors, it doesn't really answer the point of that bullet, namely if there are any other factors. So, while I appreciate his and your response, and I don't disagree with any of that, but no, I don't think that answered any of my questions.

Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.
 

rock stream

Conjurer
This is the place to talk about Magic Academy Recipes now? I would like to know why there is ebbs and flows of various Crafting items in the Magic Academy? Has too much been added to crafting that results in minimum battle boosters/pet food. Fortunately I have not been plagued with building bases in my ever changing rotation of craft able items so they are not an influence in the reduction battle boosters/pet food. I have also parked the chess set (expect for one piece).
 

Herodite

Senior Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
Hi Guys, I want to thank you for your patience whilst I got the below information for you. Now whilst im unable to provide a mathematical approach as some of you have ( I assume painstakingly) looked into, I can give you the following information to @Sir Derfs questions! Now, I know these will more than likely provoke further discussion. I just ask that you please be mindful of each others comments and as always, be nice :D

Kind Regards

Herodite

...............................................


Are there any factors beyond already possessing a certain building/base that are under a player's control that can influence the probability of different recipes appearing?

No. This is the only factor that would influence the availability/probability of buildings/bases within the Magic Academy, specifically that should a Player own a particular Base or Building (whether this be placed within the City, or held within their inventory) this will no longer be a craftable option. An example being that of evolving Buildings.


Given equal player-controlled factors, should all players expect the same weighting of the RNG for the appearance of recipes? (For example, are you A/B testing different recipe RNG weightings among different groups of players?)

No Testing is being carried out within the Magic Academy. All players experience the same random generation of Craftable Items. Of course Players are able to skip a Rotation at any time at a cost of 50 Diamonds. This would render a players experience different to that of another, however it will not affect the random generation of items. It should also be noted that with current changes within the Spire, additional items have been made available for Crafting, and whilst this has expanded the variety of Items available for Crafting, no items have been removed in lieu of these but with a slight increase of new items, this would understandably create a decrease in frequency of others.


Have there been problems in the past that have effected individual player's experiences with the recipe RNG?

We are not aware of any in game problems in the past or currently that would have affected the random generation of Craftable Items.


Have there been occasions in the past where Mods/Devs have tweaked something to change an individual player's experiences with the recipe RNG?

Whilst there are certain aspects of the Magic Academy that can be dealt with by our Support Team (such as Spell Fragments and Combining Catalysts) the probability and generation of Craftable Items is beyond our Scope for individual players. We are unable to tweak or manipulate the Crafting Menu. The only changes that our Devs have been responsible for, are those relating to the recent Spire Changes involving Historic Artefacts, specifically the introduction of Bases directly relating to said Artefacts.


Are there known conditions that might currently be effecting individual player's experiences with the recipe RNG?

There could well be conditions that are affecting an individual players experience within the Magic Academy. Missed rotations during the Night being one. Also missing the collection of a Craftable Item in a 6hr rotation creates less availability of items in the subsequent rotation and, as discussed before, the ownership of certain items within their City or Inventory, will limit availability within the Item Menu (Buildings/Bases)


Whether known or unknown, if a player suspects there could be a problem with that player's experiences with the recipe RNG, what, if any, information would be required at a minimum? What, if any, information would be helpful?

If a player suspects that there could be any form of problem with their game play and/or experience, we would always encourage that player to contact our Support Team. Any information that the player feels is relevant will be gratefully received however in the case of this particular discussion, it would be important to discuss specific recipes, frequency (inc. known dates). Whilst our Support Team would be unable to increase/amend your chances of seeing these items, we can always note this information for Feedback.
 

Sir Derf

Artisan
Thank you very much. I believe that is as close to directly answering each of my questions as I could have hoped to receive.

I think a fair paraphrase and summation is as follows...

We're all running the same weighted table of odds for rotating MA recipes. Other than the 1-per-city locked building variables, all other odds are fixed and identical for all players. Tech Support does not recognize there as having been incidents of actual incorrectly-produced bad sequences. There is no way for Tech Support to 'adjust' or 'correct' for alleged incorrectly-produced bad sequences.

RNG has RNGed. RNG is RNGing. RNG gonna RNG.

Or, as Douglas Adams might have written... "We have randomness. I repeat, we have randomness. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
 

Regina8

Soothsayer
Lol, did you honestly expect them to say: "Our programmers screwed up big time. The introduction of artifact and base recipes affected X% of players, please contact support and we'll correct any problems for you." Though they did say to contact tech support "to note information for feedback"... I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.
 

rock stream

Conjurer
specifically that should a Player own a particular Base or Building (whether this be placed within the City, or held within their inventory) this will no longer be a craftable option.
What are the exceptions to this statement beside merchants, nests, grounds and vallorian?

"changes within the Spire, additional items have been made available for Crafting, and whilst this has expanded the variety of Items available for Crafting, no items have been removed in lieu of these but with a slight increase of new items, ."
Do you have a guess at how "slight"? 10%?
 
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m4rt1n

Mentor
Lol, did you honestly expect them to say: "Our programmers screwed up big time. The introduction of artifact and base recipes affected X% of players, please contact support and we'll correct any problems for you." Though they did say to contact tech support "to note information for feedback"... I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.
I don't understand your reply, I do understand the reply by @Herodite and also know how RNG can play out. It's random, like an online betting game, but without any stake, some things are programmed to have a different percentage of appearance than others.

If it was 2 items it would be heads or tails, 6 a dice, but then they can program one item to have 1% chance of appearance and the other 99% of appearance, I just play the game and enjoy it and the friends and fun it can bring.

If you are taking it apart and trying to decode the fun game, then to me it is no longer fun but obsessive. Take a break and try and play for fun and friendship.
 
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Regina8

Soothsayer
@m4rt1n That is the problem, I cannot enjoy this game, when I don't get enough of pet food. I have 2 cities and I can compare. One of them does get fluctuations of abundance and dry spells, as you would expect from RNG, but the other city sometimes doesn't get any at all for prolonged periods of time. I play both cities the same, using the same number of pet food every week. I currently have 26 pet food in my "good city" and it never dropped below 15 in all time I'm playing this game and 6 in another city, where it was 0 just a few weeks back before I contacted tech support.

The point I'm making is that pet food and combat boosters should not depend on RNG, we should get them regularly from other steady sources.
 
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MinervaOz

Spellcaster
What are the exceptions to this statement beside merchants, nests, grounds and vallorian?
Apart from the 3 expiring military buildings and the ones you list (which includes 4 different merchants), there's the mana sawmill and a large number of small cultural buildings. According to MinMax Game's list which was last updated in mid-2020 (after the change to the 5 discrete slots), there are 5 unicorns, 4 frozen flames, 4 codexes, 3 flower cage/arbors, and 3 winter buildings that are only supposed to appear in winter. (Either the last no longer applies or it also includes southern hemisphere winter, as I saw one last week.) I'm not sure whether some of these have since been removed. The list (not sure whether I'm allowed to post the link so I won't) includes the 'rarity value' of all items on a scale of 1-5, I assume 5 being the rarest. The military buildings are rated 4. I don't know what that translates to in actual probability. But you can run through an awful lot of diamonds flipping recipes to try to get to a building you actually want.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
@m4rt1n That is the problem, I cannot enjoy this game, when I don't get enough of pet food. I have 2 cities and I can compare. One of them does get fluctuations of abundance and dry spells, as you would expect from RNG, but the other city sometimes doesn't get any at all for prolonged periods of time. I play both cities the same, using the same number of pet food every week. I currently have 26 pet food in my "good city" and it never dropped below 15 in all time I'm playing this game and 6 in another city, where it was 0 just a few weeks back before I contacted tech support.

The point I'm making is that pet food and combat boosters should not depend on RNG, we should get them regularly from other steady sources.
Well you are making 2 completely different statements here:

1. The difference between 26 and 0 is not very big and certainly not a reason to doubt that RNG works as intended. RNG will in fact produce result much more widespread than what you experience! So if anything, your experience is proof of all working as intended rather than the opposite.

Just as a comparison: I have 300+ Pet Food, but since I think you are a rather active player, I doubt there is any big difference in our income of Pet Food, the difference is most likely caused by me spending less (my pet food has been building up slowly but steadily since it was invented) Occasional jumps happen nowadays when I make VV badges for the FA, but I had 200 Pet Foods before they introduced the new FA format. So Max 100 Pet Foods can be explained by me flipping the MA.

2. The wish to have those buildings+Pet Food freed from RNG is something completely different to this and you have certainly the right to bring that up in a different discussion. I personally won´t support it as I don´t mind the RNG, but I see no reason why not to ask for it in the suggestions section. No matter if RNG works or not, you can always ask for it being removed :)
 

Herodite

Senior Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
@Regina8 whilst this would normally be something raised in Ideas and Suggestions, I have put your suggestion forward for Pet Food and Combat Boosters to be made available somewhere other than the Magic Academy. Of course I can never guarantee that they will agree to players suggestions, but I have put it forth for consideration/discussion. I will update you if I receive any feedback on this.

Kind Regards

Herodite.
 

Pauly7

Magus
I haven't followed the whole of this discussion, but just to say - As someone who has flipped the MA recipes 120 times in the last week, I seem to have collected fairly expected amounts of everything. I haven't made notes, but there isn't anything that has been lacking.
 

Laurelin

Conjurer
@Herodite : Thank you very much. I think it's fair to say that Pet Food and expiring Combat Buildings are not so much a luxury or an option as pretty much a necessity, for any player who wants to do well in the Tournaments and Spire (or even to get very far at all, if they lack the advanced Mercenary Camp Troops). The game has become increasingly focused around the Spire (in particular) and the Tournaments, and the large Enemy Squad Sizes which both of these in-game elements now feature, together with the often difficult semi-randomised mixture of Enemy Units, has meant that no player is now able to compete (realistically and equitably) without both enough Pet Food and at least one each of the expiring Combat Buildings.

Since it has been decisions on the part of the developers to increase the difficulty of the Tournaments - essentially to match and even exceed the always-high difficulty level of the Spire - then it will have to be a decision of the developers to enable players to compete on an equitable basis in these elements of the game. We as players cannot influence the RNG which dictates whether or not we will be able to compete on an equal footing with others, so I do think the developers should take up the suggestion (made most recently by @Regina8, but previously made by many others) to make both Pet Food and Combat Buildings available via an assured method, not only via a RNG which, as I and many others can confirm, is patchy at the best of times, and can never be argued to be a fair or equitable way to distribute what have become, since around a year ago or maybe longer, not an optional but an essential part of the game.

For comparison, would anyone think it was fair to set the production levels of Goods Manufactories to be allocated by RNG? - and this is not a frivolous comparison, since the Tournament and Spire can be addressed via Combat or Catering, with the difference that Catering players can rely on an always-predictable, always-identical source of Goods, whereas Combat players can only rely on a RNG which may or may not provide them with what amounts to a 50% or greater advantage during any given Tournament or Spire, by means of Pet Food and/or expiring Combat Buildings.

This system is evidently very unfair, so thank you very much, Herodite, for taking it upon yourself to suggest that there really should be a better way! :)
 

Pauly7

Magus
For comparison, would anyone think it was fair to set the production levels of Goods Manufactories to be allocated by RNG? - and this is not a frivolous comparison, since the Tournament and Spire can be addressed via Combat or Catering, with the difference that Catering players can rely on an always-predictable, always-identical source of Goods, whereas Combat players can only rely on a RNG which may or may not provide them with what amounts to a 50% or greater advantage during any given Tournament or Spire, by means of Pet Food and/or expiring Combat Buildings.
This is a good point, but to play devil's advocate - I could argue that goods production is also partially based on the same RNG. Pet food increases the attack potency of combat orientated players, by enabling them to feed their Fire Phoenix or Brown Bear. Pet food also increases goods output by allowing people to feed their Aureate Phoenix or Panda Bear. Base production of both troops and goods are fixed in the same way.
 

Regina8

Soothsayer
Just as a comparison: I have 300+ Pet Food, but since I think you are a rather active player, I doubt there is any big difference in our income of Pet Food, the difference is most likely caused by me spending less (my pet food has been building up slowly but steadily since it was invented) Occasional jumps happen nowadays when I make VV badges for the FA, but I had 200 Pet Foods before they introduced the new FA format. So Max 100 Pet Foods can be explained by me flipping the MA.
Let's talk psychology, shall we lol. How can anyone with 300+ pet food understand someone with 0? If you had money only to buy bread, would you spend it on anything else? I do 2 rounds in some easier tournaments without feeding fire bird at all to save some pet food; do you think I would use it on anything else, except for brown bear? Your building up pet food slowly, has nothing to do with your skill or me lacking it; it has everything to do with RNG...
 

Pauly7

Magus
I do 2 rounds in some easier tournaments without feeding fire bird at all to save some pet food; do you think I would use it on anything else, except for brown bear?
How often do you feed the brown bear? In my experience (and without having made detailed notes) I can expect to craft about 5 pet foods a week. I think CrazyWiz's stats say that it should be more than that, but it makes a massive difference if you're not seeing absolutely every single crafting rotation, or if occasionally one slot gets blocked by something still crafting.

So for me - In a week I feed the firebird twice. I feed brown bears twice. If I do that I usually accumulate a small amount of pet food to my pile, though of course there are a lot of ebbs and flows, due to the nature of RNG.
 

Sir Derf

Artisan
The working theory has the odds of Pet Food at about 25%. Roughly speaking, that means each rotation is approximately worth 1/4 of a Pet Food, 4 rotations (1 day) about 1 Pet Food, 28 rotations (a full week) about 7.

7 in 28, the most likely, would be about 17% chance.

5-9 in 28 would be about 73% chance, with 4 or fewer and 10 or higher each in 28 at about 14% chance each.

The odds of 0 in 28 are just a hair higher (0.032%) than those for 16-28 in 28 (0.029%).