Dawn of the Phoenix

[Jake65]

If you don't have the Fire Phoenix then shelve all other plans and get the Firebird post-haste. Even if you only get it partially evolved it will be better, and there should be plenty of other opportunities to get a few more artefacts. The only argument against it would be if you don't fight at all (obviously), but otherwise you need it. The building is so powerful that it is virtually a must-have.

Does the chapter level have any influence on the feeding effect?
I have the fire base in my inventory but it's many chapters old. Crafted it to keep it out of the MA recipes.
I only have 4 artefacts but now you've got me wondering if I should place it (even though it's chapters behind) and level it up to 5.
Or place it to hopefully get it back into the recipes and craft a new one.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Does the chapter level have any influence on the feeding effect?
I have the fire base in my inventory but it's many chapters old. Crafted it to keep it out of the MA recipes.
I only have 4 artefacts but now you've got me wondering if I should place it (even though it's chapters behind) and level it up to 5.
Or place it to hopefully get it back into the recipes and craft a new one.

Chapter has no effect on the feeding effect

@FairyElina I was just about to write the same thing as @CrazyWizard good thing he beat me to it and saved me some typing, haha

However this also depends on how much you intend to fight. If you're just planing to stay in the range of 10-15 provinces then you'll probably be able to produce enough troops and you don't need the Twilight phoenix that much, the Fire one should allow you to do all that without problems. If you like to go to higher provinces I think that the Twilight bird can give decent help and you'd probably be better off to play the long game and do as Wizard suggests.

If you do decide to go with the Fire phoenix instead then I see that the recipe is currently in crafting about every 2 or 3 recipe rotations so it shouldn't be a problem to convert all your artifacts

I find this a dangerous proposition, because things can change, you might only do 15 provinces now and do not like to do more.
2 years from now you decide to become the tourney king or queen and then you where like damn i screwed up 2 years ago.

Thats why I prefer to take the slow approah on fire phoenix and use the MA to level that one and keep this one at all costs.

 

[Hekata]

Chapter has no effect on the feeding effect


I find this a dangerous proposition, because things can change, you might only do 15 provinces now and do not like to do more.
2 years from now you decide to become the tourney king or queen and then you where like damn i screwed up 2 years ago.

Thats why I prefer to take the slow approah on fire phoenix and use the MA to level that one and keep this one at all costs.

True things change. But in 2 years the Twilight artifacts also might make a comeback...
I would choose the Twilight because Fire chick artifacts are definitely more common than the others and will probably stay in crafting forever. But choosing the Fire bird is not a bad option, it just depends on ones game style

 

[CrazyWizard]

True things change. But in 2 years the Twilight artifacts also might make a comeback...
I would choose the Twilight because Fire chick artifacts are definitely more common than the others and will probably stay in crafting forever. But choosing the Fire bird is not a bad option, it just depends on ones game style

Those 2 bolded parts are the most important parts.

we know that you can without to much hassle can get the fire phoenix artefacts in another way.
We do not know when or how many we might get from the current one in the future.

If 1-2 years from now you decide then thing is cool and you want it. then it will take you in the best case 1-2 years to get one.

While with some effort the 5 missing artefacts of the TS he can probebly aquire in about 15 weeks without issue as long as he/she is willing to either spend a few diamonds or collect blueprints with his/her fellowship. and those diamonds can also be gotten for free.

To me thats the main difference why I would never advise a player to get fire chicken with the current artefacts.

 

[BlueBlou]

I have the fire base in my inventory but it's many chapters old. Crafted it to keep it out of the MA recipes.
I only have 4 artefacts but now you've got me wondering if I should place it (even though it's chapters behind) and level it up to 5.
Or place it to hopefully get it back into the recipes and craft a new one.

Disenchant the base so you can get a new chapter related one in the MA. Placing the base still means you have one and then it won’t show up in MA in that case.

 

[Jake65]

Disenchant the base so you can get a new chapter related one in the MA. Placing the base still means you have one and then it won’t show up in MA in that case.

Ah, thank you!!

 

[Silly Bubbles]

I would never advise a player to get fire chicken with the current artefacts.

I agree. First, the future is not guaranteed so anything can happen and I wouldn't rely on anything. Second, converting or getting artifacts outside of its event is very costly. They usually offer them 1:2, for blueprints or diamonds. So it's much cheaper to use current artifacts on current bird.

 

[Laurelin]

@FairyElina : Short answer : in my opinion, the Fire Phoenix is unquestionably superior to the Twilight Phoenix, and if I had not already spent a lot of time, Blueprints, and Spell Fragments buying Artifacts to evolve my own Fire to Stage 10, I would definitely be using the currently available Tomes to obtain original [Fire] Phoenix Artifacts - to the point that if I did not see many (or any) Tomes appearing randomly in my Magic Academy, I would even spend some of my very few and, to me, very valuable Sips of Clarity to cycle through the available recipes in the hope that a Tome would appear.

Longer version : I am by preference a competent (not expert) fighter with reasonable (but again, by no means impressive) Tournament and Spire performance (Halflings Chapter, Tournament average ~3,000, Spire usually two floors weekly with full completion every 4-6 weeks). I would say that the Fire Phoenix is not only one of the best buildings in the game, but arguably the best fighting-related building bar none. In fact, since the Fire Phoenix was introduced, it's my opinion that the game has been gradually balanced in combat terms to actually assume that most players will own a Fire Phoenix by around the mid-game point, since the advantage of giving all of your Troops +50% Damage Bonus for 24 hours, costing one Pet Food, is obviously enormous. Without activating my Fire Phoenix, and especially in Tournament Provinces above 15-20 [depending on Enemy Troop type combinations] and/or in the third floor of the Spire, I typically lose 30-50% more Troops, and find many more Encounters either entirely unwinnable by combat or at least very costly (i.e. losing 3+ full Squads of my own - and I have a very large Squad Size by design).

By comparison, the Twilight Phoenix is arguably an above-average building for combat-centred players who plan to (or already do) achieve significantly above-average Tournament and/or Spire performance(s), and it will certainly be useful to expert-level and/or highly competitive fighters (such as our own CrazyWizard - who is probably one of the most successful and high-performing fighters in the game, never mind only on this Forum!), but I don't think that the average or even somewhat above-average combat-focused player will find the Twilight particularly useful, and will undoubtedly find it far less useful than a Fire Phoenix, even at non-full Evolution status.

I have planned my game primarily around fighting, and I've already said that my Squad Size is very large (in order to extend my Troop Training time), so I myself am hoping to be able to place a fully-levelled Twilight Phoenix as well as my Fire Phoenix - but only as a useful addition to the Fire Phoenix. I wouldn't even consider placing the Twilight instead of the Fire (even if the Fire were at, say, Stage 5).

It may or may not be possible to obtain a Twilight Phoenix in the future, but its effect is so marginal for any player who is not at least above-average in their combat ambitions, whereas the Fire Phoenix's effect is so major for any player who engages in any combat at all, that I don't think it's worth worrying about whether or not the Twilight remains an option. It's also true that if/when the Twilight Phoenix reappears in future, it will very probably be obtainable either via Spire prizes and/or via Crafting - but, like anything else in the Spire or in Crafting, it will be on a random basis. I'd mention here that it took me a full year to get enough Artifacts to evolve my Fire Phoenix to Stage 10 - mostly via Crafting, but also by exchanging newer Phoenix Artifacts for the original [Fire] Artifacts whenever I could.

Hope this helps.

 

[Silly Bubbles]

It's possible to get only half of Fire phoenix or less evolved comparing to fully evolved Twilight phoenix using the current exchange rate of the phoenix artifacts (1:2 as far as I know). How those two compare at these levels?
In theory, Fire phoenix needs to be twice as more powerful than Twilight phoenix for the exchange to be worth it.

 

[Sir Derf]

@Silly Bubbles would you care to share your math on the above?

Looking just at the cost to use, FP is more efficient. FP provides 24h effect per 1 Pet Food; for TP to provide similar coverage of 24h effect requires 2 Pet Foods. For full coverage of a Tourney without Time Boosts or Time Warp, with 16 hour cool offs, that's 3 Pet Food for FP, 6 Pet Food for TP. Currently, my Time Warp reduces the 16 hour cool off to 10 hours, bringing full coverage down to 2 for FP and 3 for TP.

As far as the actual effects, I would think it is similar to my above analysis of the DA. Consider fighting with 1,000 troops. With the FP, 150% damage means 1,000 troops fight like 1,500 and die like 1,000. With the TP, 5% revive means 1,000 troops fight like 1,000 and die like 950.

Or, looked at another way, the effects of the FP carry through the whole fight; if your fight takes multiple rounds to conclude, the FP effect effects every troop, every round, no matter how many have died as the fight progresses. In contrast, the effects of the TP are capped; if your fight takes multiple rounds to conclude, the TP effect effects only the first portion of troops who die, after which additional fighting continues without the benefits of the TP.

 

[Jake65]

I'm by no means clued up on the fighting aspect of the game but it seems like the fire and twilight can't be directly compared as they seem to address different aspects of fighting.
Fire increases the attack damage to the opponents (DPS in time-limited game battles),
Sanctuary AW, Unleashed Unit Upgrade or Dwarven Armourer increase the health/ability to take damage/reduces troop loss,
Twilight recovers/reduces 'cost' of troops that are lost in battle. Useful for multiple waves in the spire but for tournaments more 'economic' assistance.
I think @Laurelin has the correct idea that the Twilight works in "addition to" the Fire.
I am now on a mission to get a current chapter Phoenix
And a maxed Twilight

 

[Jake65]

Disenchant the base so you can get a new chapter related one in the MA. Placing the base still means you have one and then it won’t show up in MA in that case.

Thanks again. I had already placed it so I sold it and I now have a new one crafting at the moment in the MA

 

[Sir Derf]

Additional point...

Twilight Phoenix does nothing to help you with the current fight, and really only contributes to future battles in limited circumstances.

Troops killed during a battle are no longer able to contribute to that battle.

Revived Troops only contribute to the next battle if the unrevived quantity wasn't enough to field a full fighting squad.

Yes, revived troops reduce losses and increase your inventory of troops, but surplus troops do not count in fights. It is only when your inventory drops to the point where you wouldn't be able to field as many full squads in a fight as you want that you actually feel the benefit from the Twilight Phoenix.

 

[FairyElina]

Thank you for the advises @Sir Derf, @CrazyWizard , @Hekata and @Laurelin!

 

[Silly Bubbles]

@Silly Bubbles would you care to share your math on the above?

To get Twilight Phoenix fully evolved you need 9 artifacts. If you exchange them for Fire Phoenix artifacts you get 4 artifacts (4.5 actually but you can't get a half) because you can only get one FP artifact for two TP artifacts (1:2 conversion rate). So for the same 9 artifacts, you get either level 10 TP or level 5 FP.
So when you considering what to do with the artifacts, it comes down to deciding what is better to have, level 10 Twilight Phoenix or level 5 Fire Phoenix. You can either fully sacrifice TP and get level 5 FP or you can get full TP and no FP from this event.
So the only time that FP would be worth the conversion is if level 5 FP is same value as or more than level 10 TP for that to happen FP has to be twice as powerful as TP (5x2 = 10).

 

[Sir Derf]

So, the post I did not quote, which you edited after I questioned, was making the statement that TP was twice as useful as FP. Now, you are rephrasing to say that, given the 2-1 exchange rate of current TP artifacts for FP artifacts, that what you meant was that the decision of which to use current artifacts for would be dependent on if FP was at least twice as useful as TP.

I think, all things considered, an unevolved Level 1 Fire Phoenix (which provides a 5% health increase) is more than twice as useful than a fully evolved Level 10 Twilight Phoenix (which revives up to 5% squad size of losses).

• FP Feeding Effect lasts 24 hours vs. TP 12 hours
• Longer effect means fewer Pet Foods for all but heavily sped up Tourneys and Spire
• FP effects all fighting troops, for the whole duration of the fight, and not just on the first 5% of losses.
• FP effect improves your current capabilities, and thus the current outcome, of every fight, while TP effect only improves your future capabilities, and thus the future outcome, if your troop levels would have dropped lower than being able to field as many full squads as you want in a future fight.

With that understanding, a Level 5 Fire Phoenix is at least 10x better than a Level 10 Twilight Phoenix, and a Level 10 Fire Phoenix is at least 20x better than a Level 10 Twilight Phoenix.

*drops mic*

 

[Silly Bubbles]

So, the post I did not quote, which you edited after I questioned, was making the statement that TP was twice as useful as FP. Now, you are rephrasing to say that, given the 2-1 exchange rate of current TP artifacts for FP artifacts, that what you meant was that the decision of which to use current artifacts for would be dependent on if FP was at least twice as useful as TP.

Sorry but the post was edited way before your reply. Can we just focus on the analysis rather than picking on irrelevant issues. It's making it messy and twisted.

I think, all things considered, an unevolved Level 1 Fire Phoenix (which provides a 5% health increase) is more than twice as useful than a fully evolved Level 10 Twilight Phoenix (which revives up to 5% squad size of losses).

Fire Phoenix provides units damage bonus rather than health increase. It would be great if it provided health increase, in that case I would fully agree with you. 50% health bonus for a fully evolved one would make it really powerful.

 

[Sir Derf]

*picks up mic, dusts it off*

Sorry, misremembered/mistyped which effect was FP and which was DA. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Hardier or hurty-er, 5% better fighters are better in a current fight and so better for you overall, over and over, than 5% revived fighters only available to fight in a future fight when your numbers have dwindled to the point that they are needed. That the better fighters are available for twice as long, so cost less to use, just rubs salt in the Twilight Phoenix's wounds.

*drops mic. again.*

 

[Laurelin]

@FairyElina - you're really welcome! I'd just add that the Fire Phoenix is occasionally offered (e.g. on Black Friday) as a cash sale purchase, but it's one of the most expensive, usually costing £100 or so (fully evolved). Costly, but worth mentioning in case you haven't already seen this in-game.

[...] I think @Laurelin has the correct idea that the Twilight works in "addition to" the Fire.

@Jake65 - Yes, exactly what you say here, but far more concisely than I could... the combination of Fire Phoenix for +Damage plus either a UUU or, preferably, a DA for +Health really is the absolute winner in Elvenar combat, and can't be beaten by any other building(s) currently available - well, other than by adding multiple copies of some or all of those same buildings, of course, which most people can't do. I doubt it ever will be beaten, either, since there's a reason why the Fire Phoenix was only ever offered once in return for anything less than a lot of Resources/Diamonds and/or real cash...

And last but certainly not least, @Sir Derf - thank you for explaining in mathematical terms, which are, as ever, an enduring mystery to my own brain, that which I can only really appreciate or describe - much less effectively and clearly - via my own word-heavy player experience and intuition!

 

[Sir Derf]

It's late. My mind is dulled. Thought I had a different point of view that made the TP out more favorably. Probably wrong, but let's see...

You fight with 5 squads at a time in an encounter. Let's suppose you fight with the same troop type every time, with a squad of 1,000.

If you suffer at least 5% troop loss from every squad in an encounter, , Lvl10 TP can revive 50 troop per squad, 250 troop per encounter. 4 encounters and that's 1,000 troops. 1 Squad per 4 encounters.

Suppose you fight 20 provinces for 6 rounds in a Tourney. And let's forget the easy fights. Let's assume that every fight you take at least 5% loss from every squad. In the entire Tourney, that's 120 encounters. At 1 Squad revived per 4 encounters, that's 30 squads saved over the tourney.

Now, that doesn't sound that bad....

30 squads saved, at 5 squads per encounter, means you could attempt 6 additional near-fatal encounters, or a 21st province for 6 rounds (provided you succeed in each battle)

But, remember, this ability to do a 21st province for 6 rounds is possible only without doing anything to help with the first 20 provinces.


I'm not sure how best to assess the benefits of the Fire Phoenix. It's a lot muddier - who manages to attack first, how many rounds of attack does it take... But, I think it's safe to say that as the Fire Phoenix is evolved, from 5% to 50% damage increase, there comes a point where, over 120 rounds of fighting that in the above example you were successful to a greater or lesser degree without help, that with Fire Phoenix Help you will save at least 5%, and probably much greater, in many of those fights, probably to an aggregate way higher than 30 squads worth over 120 fights.