can anybody tell me why..

[Julian]

You are forgetting that Sunset Towers also gives you seeds. My Lv 9 one gives me more than I get from three festival merchants.

 

[Gargon667]

That is doubtless true, but is a reflection of your game priorities (given that you are focusing on the Tournament and have no aspiration to progress through further chapters). A player who concentrated on city progression, but was content with more modest Tournaments (especially via catering) could equally conclude that the Needles of Tempest (and Flying Academy etc.) were worthless for them.

completely agree!

Many such players may find the Sunset Towers to be rather useful.

What does that have to do with the above? I see not the slightest connection and completely disagree with that statement. I cannot see any use for a Sunset Tower for a town with no tourney ambitions? Why would they benefit?

 

[Gargon667]

You are forgetting that Sunset Towers also gives you seeds. My Lv 9 one gives me more than I get from three festival merchants.

I do not believe that to be true if you use up to date merchants. I just did a very rough calculation: In the beginning of chapter 16 the ST produces 630 seeds per help chest (depending on MH level, I believe), which makes it 630*3 (3 chests per day)*3(at lvl 11)= 5670 seeds per day.
A festival merchant (chapter 16) produces 3080 Seeds per day, so 2 would produce 6160 seeds per day.

So even level 11 ST produces less than 2 merchants.
Variations of that can come from the level of Merchants used, the base production of the ST or of course missed collections (the convenience of collection I would say is nice on the ST). Also when running that comparison, one would have to say that 2 merchants are slightly bigger than the ST (by 3 squares), which makes the per square production a little bit lower than the ST, however we could add the Culture added by the merchants as another bonus to make up for that (in case culture is a thing you are interested in having). Bottom line, you can get the same seed production out of festival merchants as you can get from a lvl 11 ST. Obviously without adding 11 extra AW levels to your tourney SS.
So basically I would say this a clear no to the seed production being a major point of interest. It is a small secondary effect on top of the decay reduction. If for whatever reason somebody finds it useful to have 2 million seeds in their inventory, then that secondary effect will make the ST even more useful. Otherwise either effect is, well, I repeat myself...

 

[Far Reach]

A player who concentrated on city progression, but was content with more modest Tournaments (especially via catering) could equally conclude that the Needles of Tempest (and Flying Academy etc.) were worthless for them. Many such players may find the Sunset Towers to be rather useful.

What does that have to do with the above? I see not the slightest connection and completely disagree with that statement. I cannot see any use for a Sunset Tower for a town with no tourney ambitions? Why would they benefit?

One use of Sunset Towers is to help speed up city progression through the chapters (as described in the post you quoted from, and also the subsequent one from @Solanix ). I was just trying to highlight that a player with different priorities could validly say that (for them) Sunset Towers is useful and the Needles of Tempest is worthless.

 

[BlueBlou]

I cannot see any use for a Sunset Tower for a town with no tourney ambitions? Why would they benefit?

Do chapters perhaps? Seeds for me is linked to sentient goods production, which is needed in spire if you don’t fight and definitely needed in unlocking research techs.

 

[Gargon667]

Do chapters perhaps? Seeds for me is linked to sentient goods production, which is needed in spire if you don’t fight and definitely needed in unlocking research techs.

Same in my brain, the main use of seeds is for sentient goods production, which means you need a constant stream of seeds and have absolutely no benefit from a stockpile. If you have a stockpile, you simply have too many seeds, that will never get used and end up decaying. If you have a ST the stockpile will decay later, but unless you have a big pile of seed cost coming up, that has absolutely no benefit to you at all? Not having a ST will not reduce your sentient production.

 

[Gargon667]

One use of Sunset Towers is to help speed up city progression through the chapters (as described in the post you quoted from, and also the subsequent one from @Solanix ). I was just trying to highlight that a player with different priorities could validly say that (for them) Sunset Towers is useful and the Needles of Tempest is worthless.

Am I going insane? I looked through the whole thread again, i cannot see anyone anywhere explaining how ST speeds up any chapter progression? Not you or @Solanix!
I definitely agree with you that some people may find Needles useless, but I cannot see hwo that makes ST useful?

I know you for a reasonable person, not a mad nutcase, so I assume you must be talking about something going on in chapter 17 or 18 which I have no idea of (you did mention the possibility to keep a pile of seeds for switching over to unurium production at the beginning of a chapter. But other than that I have no idea what you are talking about?

The only thing I found is:

I agree to an extent. The game often asks for large chunks of resources at one time though (e.g. for upgrades, researches and even for catering), and this is particularly true for later chapters, upgrades and AWs. Keeping no stockpile and producing resources only when needed ("Just In Time") can create significant delays all over the place. Personally I always prefer to stockpile.

Did you mean that for seeds? I agree if you mean sentient goods, which is also why exempted that decay from the useless list, but seeds? Now I may be completely off on that, but I go under the assumption that 90% of seeds go to sentient goods production.
But seeds? When do we need seeds in big chunks? In chapter 11 they are used in chunks for activating research, but ST is not even available until the end of the next chapter. By then the only use is Sentient goods production? It doesn´t occur in tourney catering at all, so not even an extra big tourney will cost seeds. the spire costs the occasional small amount (which can easily be avoided), but not big piles, also seeds are asked less and less often as you progress through chapters. the occasional AW upgrade later in the game costs seeds (at somewhat bigger amounts), but really? build an AW just to upgrade another in a slightly easier way?
I really wish anyone would explain to me how a ST speeds up anything. Consider me a brainless Orc and take it really slow.

if you mean this post by Solanix:

@Gargon667 all those Ancient Wonders you mentioned are also helping with the steadily flow of incoming Divine Seeds because the collectioin bonus of the Trader is depending on Main Hall level and Ancient Wonders Level.

the only thing said is that AW levels increase seed production in the trader, which has nothing to do with ST at all. Every AW does that.

If you mean this post:

Yes, I am at the end of chapter 16 and thankfully, each research is asking for 200+ KP. This gives me time to stockpile the goods needed for the finalisation of the research. Without a decay reduction, I would get the KP bar filled before I would have all the sentient goods together. Those seeds are precious to me

I have no idea what it means really. Best guess: talking about the Sentient decay reduction in the simia? happy about needing lots of KP to make it slow and at the same time happy that said decay reduction makes it faster? Conclusion: happy about seeds. I can´t logically connect any of these 3 or 4 things in my brain to form a connected chain of events.
My wife keeps telling me that it doesn´t always have to be logical, which is why I tune out when I hear stories like that, they never make sense to me, I accept the fact that I don´t understand what she´s talking about and hope for the best.

 

[Far Reach]

Same in my brain, the main use of seeds is for sentient goods production, which means you need a constant stream of seeds and have absolutely no benefit from a stockpile. If you have a stockpile, you simply have too many seeds, that will never get used and end up decaying. If you have a ST the stockpile will decay later, but unless you have a big pile of seed cost coming up, that has absolutely no benefit to you at all? Not having a ST will not reduce your sentient production.

Research in the new chapter (Team Spirit) requires 785k seeds according to Elven Architect
Fully levelling up just one of the later chapters AWs costs about 4 million seeds (!)
Later upgrades for a number of buildings including T1 manufactories, T2 manufactories and armories each require a few tens of thousands of seeds.

Additionally in C17 and C18 there is a conflict between Unurium and Divine Seeds production in the trader, which (depending on individual strategy) may also greatly reduce seed production for a period.

More generally Inno has a habit of finding new uses for resources as one progresses through the game. My city is intended to be flexible and to be able to do well in all aspects of the game. For me (as a player well into chapter 18) that means Sunset Towers is a valuable wonder. I don't think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that any of the players confidently dismissing ST have faced any of the above challenges yet.

 

[Pauly7]

Can I just add though... Sunset Towers looks really cool. I've deleted it now since the new tournament calculations came in, but if it wasn't going to be hurting my scores then I would have let it stay in its place just because I like it a lot.

 

[Far Reach]

Seeds for me is linked to sentient goods production, which is needed in spire if you don’t fight and definitely needed in unlocking research techs.

I think that this is covered by my previous post. Seeds are used for lot more purposes in later chapters than just sentient good production. (I agree though that if this were their sole use then ST wouldn't be needed.)

 

[Gargon667]

Can I just add though... Sunset Towers looks really cool. I've deleted it now since the new tournament calculations came in, but if it wasn't going to be hurting my scores then I would have let it stay in its place just because I like it a lot.

You can add it back in as a lvl 1 Won´t affect your tourneys much and still looks the same I sometimes had it as lvl 1, when I fooled around with neighbour help chests. Had a lvl 1 lighthouse, Sunset towers and wasn´t there a 3rd one? I forgot, too long ago now.

 

[Pauly7]

You can add it back in as a lvl 1 Won´t affect your tourneys much and still looks the same I sometimes had it as lvl 1, when I fooled around with neighbour help chests. Had a lvl 1 lighthouse, Sunset towers and wasn´t there a 3rd one? I forgot, too long ago now.

The problem is that I can't (or don't want to) play purely for aesthetics. My self imposed rules are complicated. In the old days if an AW was a little bit rubbish I would still have it because I liked it, but I would be able to justify its space much more if I upgraded it to a high level. Even Thrones of the High Men I used to keep. I knew it was useless, but for that reason alone I kept upgrading it because I thought... well, if I'm going to waste this plot of land then I might as well have a building that's giving me about 30k culture. I deleted Thrones too, because I can't continue my weak justification if there's no justification at all.

 

[Pauly7]

On the other hand - it's lucky that Maze of the Dark Matter is the ugliest monstrosity that Inno ever conceived of, so I've never been tempted to build it on any level, either before or after the tournament change.

 

[Gargon667]

Research in the new chapter (Team Spirit) requires 785k seeds according to Elven Architect

The entire chapter? Sorry that´s not even a cost to be taken serious for a slow town. I have that many seeds in my inventory right now, without the use of SunTowers or a single festival merchant. Anough for the entire chapter! So nope, not a reason.

Later upgrades for a number of buildings including T1 manufactories, T2 manufactories and armories each require a few tens of thousands of seeds.

errr, the amount of a 3h collection of a trader? Why would I need a SunTower to reduce the decay for that? yes some people have no AWs to speak of, but those people will never make it past chapter 15s sentient goods production, so what they do in chapter 17+ is rather irrelevant. My 300 AW levels may be more than some people have, but is certainly less than others have. But even if I had only half that it would not be an issue to manage these quantities. Anyway you can collect far more than once in a day and so the seeds will never decay before you use them up.

Fully levelling up just one of the later chapters AWs costs about 4 million seeds (!)

Now we´re talking! 4 million seeds in one go as a regular occurence? I am with you SunTowers is the way to go!
But really how many people upgrade a late chapter AW from 0 to 30 in one go on a regular basis? Spread out over months? We´re back to not needing more than a standard daily production.

Additionally in C17 and C18 there is a conflict between Unurium and Divine Seeds production in the trader, which (depending on individual strategy) may also greatly reduce seed production for a period.

Agreed, but in terms of how often we get new chapters, I find it exaggerated to keep an entire AW for such rare occurences.

More generally Inno has a habit of finding new uses for resources as one progresses through the game. My city is intended to be flexible and to be able to do well in all aspects of the game. For me (as a player well into chapter 18) that means Sunset Towers is a valuable wonder. I don't think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that any of the players confidently dismissing ST have faced any of the above challenges yet.

Keeping an AW because Inno might invent something in the future? Sure, but again true for basically every AW in the game. ST does not stick out to be clearly better than other AWs.

I can clearly say, I have not faced these challenges, I have actually already solved all of them without even trying 2 or 3 chapters before I need to! I have upgraded Simia to lvl 34, I have enough seeds in my inventory right now to finish entire chapter 18 activation costs. and i certainly am able to collect a 3h production in my trader (or 5) to upgrade any factory I want (and I can repeat the process every day). I have not ever had a need for the ST. I have not even placed any festival Merchants, which would be my first response to an increased need for seeds long before considering ST.

So unless Inno invents some serious need for Seeds in the future, something along the lines of 1 million seeds once a week in one chunk, I will stick to my opinion of the ST: One of the most useless AWs in the game. If Inno wants 100k seeds per day, the ST will not be of any use whatsoever either.

 

[Pauly7]

Now we´re talking! 4 million seeds in one go as a regular occurence? I am with you SunTowers is the way to go!
But really how many people upgrade a late chapter AW from 0 to 30 in one go on a regular basis? Spread out over months? We´re back to not needing more than a standard daily production.

It's never going to be in one go. Upgrading Simia Sapiens to level 28 costs 70k seeds. That's chump change and the following level isn't going to present itself until you've invested nearly 1,500 KP into it. That isn't going to be instantaneous for anyone unless they've decided to hold onto thousands of KP and also want to time boost the upgrading. Just the upgrade time is an extra 2 days.

 

[Gargon667]

It's never going to be in one go. Upgrading Simia Sapiens to level 28 costs 70k seeds. That's chump change and the following level isn't going to present itself until you've invested nearly 1,500 KP into it. That isn't going to be instantaneous for anyone unless they've decided to hold onto thousands of KP and also want to time boost the upgrading. Just the upgrade time is an extra 2 days.

that was kinda my point

 

[SkyRider99]

Chocolate teapots. Nice comparison