Big difference in troop types needed at different chapters ?

[DeletedUser]

I've just started fighting and have 2 cities, and i discovered a big difference in the troops needed.

I have a ch12 city and ch15. The ch15 was more or less like MinMax' fighting guide. But the ch12 was a lot different. For those who will return later and read this, it's a Silk tournament.

I think maybe 80% of the fights in my ch12 city had to use Heavy Melee, where i guess around maybe half of that in my ch15 city. And sorry you number's guys, i have no actual data. But there was a lot more fights needing Heavy Melee in my ch12 city than in my ch15.

Is there supposed to be such a big difference based upon chapters fighting in the same tournament ?

 

[CrazyWizard]

I've just started fighting and have 2 cities, and i discovered a big difference in the troops needed.

I have a ch12 city and ch15. The ch15 was more or less like MinMax' fighting guide. But the ch12 was a lot different. For those who will return later and read this, it's a Silk tournament.

I think maybe 80% of the fights in my ch12 city had to use Heavy Melee, where i guess around maybe half of that in my ch15 city. And sorry you number's guys, i have no actual data. But there was a lot more fights needing Heavy Melee in my ch12 city than in my ch15.

Is there supposed to be such a big difference based upon chapters fighting in the same tournament ?

The difference is in which boosters you use (or not use), which wonders you leveled (or not leveled)

The more "plain" your account is the more it somewhat revolves around the combat triangle.

The more boosts you have the more it revolves around range.
I use a lot of boosts in my tournament, I mainly use rangers and blossom mages, but as this tournament is kinda favorable for heavy melee I also used some heavy melee and cerberus and golem units when I expected then I could not punch trough the lines with my super boosted ranged units.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you @CrazyWizard

Hmm, ok, so what i got in my city will also affect which troops i meet in the fights and therefor which i will need to produce myself ?

As i have not been fighting before, both cities were setup for catering, so the military AW's are more or les at the same level. There's only the difference in that i in my ch15 have a Simia and Pyramid, but that only gives free troops. Dragon in both, but not same level, ch 15 at 11 and ch12 at 3.

Otherwise no boosters used at all. I want to have a clear feeling of what the troops can do as they are, so i know what i have if i don't have booster instants or buildings. Then i can add that later to go more provinces

 

[CrazyWizard]

Thank you @CrazyWizard

Hmm, ok, so what i got in my city will also affect which troops i meet in the fights and therefor which i will need to produce myself ?

As i have not been fighting before, both cities were setup for catering, so the military AW's are more or les at the same level. There's only the difference in that i in my ch15 have a Simia and Pyramid, but that only gives free troops. Dragon in both, but not same level, ch 15 at 11 and ch12 at 3.

Otherwise no boosters used at all. I want to have a clear feeling of what the troops can do as they are, so i know what i have if i don't have booster instants or buildings. Then i can add that later to go more provinces

No the troops you meet depend on the tournament but are "random" to a certain degree.
All tournaments can give all enemies as an enemy but silk has a high probability of meeting light melee and heavy melee units.
Depending on the exact enemies you meet you need to find a solution to the problem.

Sometimes is scewed more towards 1 and sometimes to another unit.
I mean I used golems agains pure light melee / range enemies. so even when heavy melee has a high probability to show up it doesn't always and you meet many different setups.

but how you tackle the problem depends on how well boosted your units are.

 

[Pauly7]

I think maybe 80% of the fights in my ch12 city had to use Heavy Melee, where i guess around maybe half of that in my ch15 city.

I suspect this is coincidence. It may look like a pattern, but without looking at hundreds of encounters it can easily seem like there are differences between two sets of data.

Also, I would argue that you don't often have to use heavy melee, but that's a different matter.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you again @CrazyWizard

What i experienced in my ch12 city was that most fights were a combo of Light Melee and Heavy Range, and only a few of the other ones in the mix. So a lot of Treant had to go to war, most of the others could just lie in the sun and have a joyful time ;-)

I hope so @Pauly7 but i have entered ch12 in between. As i remember the fights in ch11, they were more or less like in the ch15 city.

I'm not sure what you want me to use instead of Treants when i met Light Melee and Heavy Range, which didn't have special skills against Heavy Melee ?

 

[Gargon667]

I'm not sure what you want me to use instead of Treants when i met Light Melee and Heavy Range, which didn't have special skills against Heavy Melee ?

That is unusual, so you were simply lucky to get those combos. Very easy to fight, even with HM. Depending on what booster buildings and the actual SS and units invovled Frogs or Blossom mages can be 0 loss fights though. But as I said you have to be lucky to get the combos you got It is not a usual thing.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you @Gargon667

But why Frogs or Blossoms ?

So to take my ch11 city, i have Elder Treant which has 4X strength against both Light Melee and Heavy Ranged, whereas Frog 1 only have 3X strength against Light Melee and even with Heavy Ranged. Blossom 2 has nothing against Light Melee and only 2X strength against Heavy Ranged.

My ch15 city has Frog 2 and Blossom Princess, so the Frog 2 has 4X strength against Light Melee as Treants, but still only even against Heavy Ranged. Blossom Princess still has nothing to offer against Light Melee, and only 3X strength against Heavy Ranged.

I can only see the Elder Treant Heavy Melee as the choice here; What am i missing ?

 

[CrazyWizard]

Thank you @Gargon667

But why Frogs or Blossoms ?

So to take my ch11 city, i have Elder Treant which has 4X strength against both Light Melee and Heavy Ranged, whereas Frog 1 only have 3X strength against Light Melee and even with Heavy Ranged. Blossom 2 has nothing against Light Melee and only 2X strength against Heavy Ranged.

My ch15 city has Frog 2 and Blossom Princess, so the Frog 2 has 4X strength against Light Melee as Treants, but still only even against Heavy Ranged. Blossom Princess still has nothing to offer against Light Melee, and only 3X strength against Heavy Ranged.

I can only see the Elder Treant Heavy Melee as the choice here; What am i missing ?

Those stars do not say much.
You should delve into the units strenghts and weaknesses first including the enemy.
https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Units

I assume you play on the app so you can get access to the following information with the above link to the wiki.

What those stars do not tell you is the powers, and the tactical advantage units have (or not have)
Being able to strike first is very important, because each unit that you kill cannot hit you back and this reduces losses dramatically.
It also works the other way around, each unit that strikes you first will reduce your ability to damage the enemy.

Ranged units have the advantage to be able to almost always strike first.

Range units also have attack boosters aviable like fire phoenix, some wonders and light range and light mage combat boosters from the academy.
This makes the first strike even more powerfull as you destroy even more of the enemy units.

Some units also have the range to stay out of harms way, this means they can first strike twice before the enemy gets close enough to strike back.
Last but not least units like blossom mage, priest (all versions), archer, pro ranger, frog prince(3* versions) have a special power then massively destroys the enemies defence, this means even if the first hit does not strike hard enough, the second strike will pretty much ignore any defence the enemy has agains your own units.

The treants enemies also have the ability to stay out of range of the treant, on certain maps this means they cannot win as the enemy will just pulverize you from a distance (the AI ain't alsways smart enough to deal with it and makes dumb choices)
Paladin / Valorrian guard often give more stable results as there 1 extra range allows the AI more flexibility and the ability to strike back.
Even if they have only half the HP of a treant the end result is often better.

So combat ain't as simple as comparing stars. there is more involved.
Also be aware that units from the player side and enemy side can be completely different even if the look the same

Example:

This unit has 3 bonus vs light melee, but when we look close it's only a 40% damage reduction vs light melee.
This ectually aint that great
But those 5 bonus vs light range is actually pretty good with 70% more damage and 80% less damage taken

When it comes to enemey units it's the other way around.
In fact is doesnt even have a defence vs light rage units.

This means that if my unit strikes first I would not mind opposing this unit with archers. as I most likely hit it so hard, especially if my archers are boosted that that 30% becomes +30% of a near dead unit. a little +30% is not that dangerous.

As you can see in this example those swords do not say that much, the first unit strikes first vs light melee and has some defence, while it ain't great it's not the worst.
The enemy unit on the other hand also has 3 swords vs light range. but it strikes last and has no defence so is crippled before it can lash back, that +30% is near useless.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you @CrazyWizard

And sorry for the late reply. I had to move in between and also wanted to do a little more fighting..

I play on PC. Only use the app if i'm away and need to collect/set production.

I understand the logic of attack is the best defence, but i wonder how far it will be like that, and i expect that i need to be aware of the enemy's range.

I don't understand that thing about stars, crossed swords and percentages:

Taking the Blossom 2 vs. Blossom Princess. Both have the same percentage in regards to hit./def. on HM and HR, but B2 only have 4XHM and 2XHR, where BP have 5XHM and 3XHR. The only difference is in damage and hit-points and the added special power to BP. So how does this add up to anything useful - And how does "initiative" play into all this ?

I can also see from other threads here that either some players completely ignore a unit, or its losses, because the arguments are many times completely opposite. So the only strategy i can see is to have a bunch of all the units. Also because i can see differences in fights between my ch12 and ch15 city.

 

[anonglitch]

Thank you, CrazyWizard, great contribution

 

[BlueBlou]

Wrt your own troops, @Elivar, your chapter 15 city has some more advanced troops than your chapter 12 city. I have cities in chapters 12 and 14. Our gurus here have made me actually take a look on the wiki at what the added benefit of a 3 star means. Still can’t remember it though, but it certainly carries more oomph than what one would think from just another star upgrade.

My personal experience, no two cities face the same combination of enemies and types of enemies. Even f they have the same development state.

Yes, I aim to have the same number of units, so I can use whatever I deem might do the trick, right or wrong. I also accept that my game state is not the same game state as our gurus and that our conditions will therefor differ.

 

[CrazyWizard]

Thank you @CrazyWizard

And sorry for the late reply. I had to move in between and also wanted to do a little more fighting..

I play on PC. Only use the app if i'm away and need to collect/set production.

I understand the logic of attack is the best defence, but i wonder how far it will be like that, and i expect that i need to be aware of the enemy's range.

I don't understand that thing about stars, crossed swords and percentages:

Taking the Blossom 2 vs. Blossom Princess. Both have the same percentage in regards to hit./def. on HM and HR, but B2 only have 4XHM and 2XHR, where BP have 5XHM and 3XHR. The only difference is in damage and hit-points and the added special power to BP. So how does this add up to anything useful - And how does "initiative" play into all this ?

I can also see from other threads here that either some players completely ignore a unit, or its losses, because the arguments are many times completely opposite. So the only strategy i can see is to have a bunch of all the units. Also because i can see differences in fights between my ch12 and ch15 city.

When we grab blossom mages from the wiki we see the following:

https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Units#Mercenary_Camp_Unit_Stats

What we see is that base damage increases about 10% from a range of 50-83 to 55-91, which mean your units will kill more enemies that can't strike back.
We also see that hitpoints are rased by 10% from 106 to 116, and this suggest that your incomming suffering will lead to less casualties
Last but not least an additional secondary special power is unlocked
Blossom from the start already has the best power, namely the -defence power 30% for 3 rounds. in an offensive scenario this is perfect.
But sometimes you cannot the return of damage and that where the second power comes in. it also puts on the enemy an attack reducing penalty.
So if they do strike back on you on there turn. the damage will be partially mitiligated.

The change from 2* to 3* for mages is less prominent as they already have special powers from the start. but non mage units get these powers only once they unlock 3*

blossom mage, frog prince and pro ranger are all unlocked between chaper 13 and 15. this means as you unlock there full potential especially 3* frog prince / pro ranger your tournament capabilities increase dramatically.

This is part trough inno-magic-math.

Example: pro ranger
4 range, 4 move this means it can pretty much attack anything anywhere.

It needs to attack an enemy cannoneer (50% defence / damage reduction vs light range)
Your 2* pro ranger can only do 50% damage agains that unit thanks to it's defence.

But now comes the magic of a 3* ranger with a 30% defence reduction power.
Lets do the same attack.

1st attack 50% of damage is mitiligated so 1000 damage becomes 500.
2nd attack 150 defence *0.7(minus 30%) = 105 = 5% so the second attack does 950 damage.

This is almost double the damage / kills!!!
The higher the defence the more prominent the change.

This shows why the difference from 2* to 3* if the unit has the correct power can be absolutely huge.
twice the damage is no small difference. and since all tournaments are random now it means you always face some unit you have a hard time handeling, the ability to brute force yourself trough such units with special powers makes a huge difference.

 

[Gargon667]

And how does "initiative" play into all this ?

Initiative does mainly 2 things:
1. It decides the order in which units take their turns. The highest initiative unit goes first, the lowest last. What it means for fighting: Well if you go first you can wipe out the opponent before even gets to move a finger. So usually high is good. This is one of various Reasons why the Rangers is far superior to any other LR unit you can make. It goes before any other unit (with the one exception: Mist Walker, which again is exactly the reason why Mist Walkers are the most dangerous LR enemy). So Rangers can even shoot most of the enemy LR units before they can move.
The only units I wish had a lower initiative are Golems, they have a small total range, which means they cannot reach any enemy in round one unless they moved before, so it would be nice if more enemies moved before the Golems do, especially when fighting enemy HR with Golems, it happens often that Golems walk forward can´t reach the enemy, then the enemy moves and whacks the Golems. Would be nicer the other way around
2. Initiative also seems to be the main (but not only) factor that decides how the AI chooses who to attack. In most cases the AI chooses to attack the unit with the highest initiative, if there is a choice. What is not included in target choice is personal strength and weakness, so basically every unit will attack a LR unit if possible, no matter if they are strong or weak against them.

I can also see from other threads here that either some players completely ignore a unit, or its losses, because the arguments are many times completely opposite. So the only strategy i can see is to have a bunch of all the units. Also because i can see differences in fights between my ch12 and ch15 city.

I don´t quite understand this, but on which units to keep around: It depends a lot where in the game you are.
Once you activate the Frog upgrade in chapter 15 you have all unit upgrades (currently available). Which means you have all the best ones, which then means you just keep the best ones of every type instead of all of them.
The 3 important types to have are: LR, M and HR, the best units of each typer would be Rangers (LR) and Blossoms (M), for HR all 3 available units have merits, make what you can, I prefer to have some of all 3, but in total number the same amount of troops for all 3 types.
The other two types are much less important, I only keep a few HM (Treants or Vallorians, whatever I have time to make) and even fewer LM (dogs mostly, but whatever, they are all just cannonfodder anyway)

It is much more complicated (or easier?) earlier in the game, because you don´t have the one top unit yet. So you have to figure out if 3star Barrack LR are better than 2 star Rangers (which depends on what you want to use them for). And so on for all troops of different star levels... So if you want to plan, it gets quite complicated, or you just make whatever you can and then use the troops you have