You knew it was coming....

[SkyRider99]

From what I have read it's those with lots of armouries that have the lack of culture. Why do people have so many.

I can't speak for everyone (obviously) but my reason for having seven Armouries is to keep replenishing orcs that get destroyed in their hundreds of thousands each week in the Spire negotiations and Tournament catering. A few extra bonus sentient goods is nice also, but definitely not my main reason.

 

[m4rt1n]

I can't speak for everyone (obviously) but my reason for having seven Armouries is to keep replenishing orcs that get destroyed in their hundreds of thousands each week in the Spire negotiations and Tournament catering. A few extra bonus sentient goods is nice also, but definitely not my main reason.

I have 8 armories so that my troops would train for about 20 hours, now that has gone up to 27 hours

 

[Lelanya]

Didn't you wonder why I asked why some folks had 50 armories? Lol it's because I read the Discord feedback and this is a theme amongst those who complain about negative culture.

 

[m4rt1n]

Didn't you wonder why I asked why some folks had 50 armories? Lol it's because I read the Discord feedback and this is a theme amongst those who complain about negative culture.

My culture stayed + with 8 armories, but some in my fellowship with less armories than me went into negative culture so more at play somewhere.

 

[SkyRider99]

My culture stayed + with 8 armories, but some in my fellowship with less armories than me went into negative culture so more at play somewhere.

Yeah, I got the poisoned chalice too somehow @m4rt1n. With only seven Armouries my culture went backwards to the tune of -114K. There's some foul play at work. But that's no news.

 

[McBratty]

I think a lot of those who went into the negative with culture were those who were heavily reliant on AWs for the majority of their city culture. Those with a high ranked Thrones and Monastery/Sanctuary which gave masses of culture I imagine are those who suffered most.

 

[Kazzandra]

Great links thanks @Laurelin.

Considering the large number of comments posted in those forums/fora against the latest destructive game nerfs, I think our forum has been too mild in the (well-deserved) criticism we have posted against the Inno madness. But maybe I am being too kind to call them 'mad'.

I just see it as the latest way the forum allows us to communicate. They can’t stop it because it isn’t personal, but it certainly is timely. They put buffers between the ones who read the complaints and pass it along, and those few who caused the changes.

People didn’t have to wait to express their disdain because they invited us to create feedback. Furthermore, they knew they messed up and did it anyway. Already priorities have changed. The way the game is played has already changed.

In addition, they paid a price for ignoring the feedback they were getting previously. The latest round is milder because we expected to be ignored. So why hold back. They haven’t changed. Just new complaints, and well deserved.

There are more changes coming. Sooner, rather than later IMO. They really messed with the game.

 

[SkyRider99]

I think a lot of those who went into the negative with culture were those who were heavily reliant on AWs for the majority of their city culture. Those with a high ranked Thrones and Monastery/Sanctuary which gave masses of culture I imagine are those who suffered most.

That seems to be my situation @McBratty. To some extent at least. I have the Monastery, but not the Thrones. So I got bashed at least twice, also taking into account the AWs and the Armouries.

It's not just that Inno made these damaging changes. It's the scale and magnitude that infuriates me. Plus the fact that all these buildings were paid/purchased($$) in good faith, based on the game requirements at the time. I mean, if they are going to stab us in the back, they could at least give us a field pack to dress the wound. But that is asking too much, I know!

 

[SkyRider99]

Lol it's because I read the Discord feedback and this is a theme amongst those who complain about negative culture.

Ah, so the PTB thought to punish us evil-doers, in order to placate the howling mob.

If they wanted us to leave the game, they only had to ask nicely! But vicious attack works too!!

 

[Hekata]

Here's an official announcement from Discord. What I get from it is that they are not planing to make any further tweaks to the costs and that we'll just have to deal with it

Ancient Wonders requirements – Why have they been changed?
We have seen your feedback in the last few days about the new requirements (Combining Catalyst, Royal Restoration, and Spell Fragments) now needed in all Ancient Wonders. It is a big change; we understand it can be unsettling and generate frustration. This is why we now want to clarify a bit more why it happened. The main issue was that the old Ancient Wonders costs were balanced many years ago when no Tournaments were giving out many Relics every week. Since then, the Relics costs became trivial, and we started to ask for other resources to build new Ancient Wonders. But these resources also became easier and easier to get from Event Buildings, and Crafting. Again, the upgrade costs of Ancient Wonders became meaningless. And we could also see this in our data: the only appropriate challenge these buildings provided was the Research phase. With the new requirement we want to fix this issue for good, with resources that you can get at certain places in the game and are independent from your progress through the chapters.
It is also a challenge that is now more predictable for you. You can work towards it beforehand since we plan to keep this cost structure for all future Ancient Wonders.

Does it take longer to upgrade your Ancient Wonders?
With the new requirements, on average and based on the data we have from the game, it doesn’t take longer to max out an Ancient Wonder than it did before. It might take longer for the players that in the past were able to max them out in a few weeks (leveraging some imbalances in the game, which are now fixed with these new requirements). Rushing through Ancient Wonders was never meant to be the norm, this feature is meant to be a long-term goal and to require time, and rewards participation in other Elvenar activities, such as Tournament and Spire.

We have also rebalanced their effects, and in most cases made them stronger than before as you advance in the game. This was done to make them even more appealing and worth the time investment. To give just one example, as you voiced many times that for higher chapters, Mana is often one of the most needed resources. With the improved Mana-related Ancient Wonders you can clearly see how much more helpful they are – and will be in all future chapters. We see your feedback about the requirements and understand this is a relevant change for many of you. It is ok to not be happy and voice your concerns, we truly appreciate your input. Your feedback was also already considered when defining the requirements. Initially these new requirements were tested in Chapter 21. In the last update, when we expanded them to all Ancient Wonders, we reduced them by 50% following feedback from players in that Chapter. Just consider we are not planning to further change those requirements at the moment. With the introduction of the possibility to get Combining Catalysts and sometimes even Royal Restoration when selling non-chapter related buildings you no longer need, you now have more options to get the upgrade resources for Ancient Wonders steadily over time.

Looking ahead
Thanks for your continued support, we understand not all changes are easy to accept and we’ll keep monitoring your feedback.
We all have one single objective, improve Elvenar to let it last as long as possible. For the Ancient Wonders, this means to keep their challenge, but also the power of their effects in balance – no matter how many more chapters we add in the future. With your ongoing support, we are getting there together.

 

[Killiak]

Here's an official announcement from Discord. What I get from it is that they are not planing to make any further tweaks to the costs and that we'll just have to deal with it

Ancient Wonders requirements – Why have they been changed?
We have seen your feedback in the last few days about the new requirements (Combining Catalyst, Royal Restoration, and Spell Fragments) now needed in all Ancient Wonders. It is a big change; we understand it can be unsettling and generate frustration. This is why we now want to clarify a bit more why it happened. The main issue was that the old Ancient Wonders costs were balanced many years ago when no Tournaments were giving out many Relics every week. Since then, the Relics costs became trivial, and we started to ask for other resources to build new Ancient Wonders. But these resources also became easier and easier to get from Event Buildings, and Crafting. Again, the upgrade costs of Ancient Wonders became meaningless. And we could also see this in our data: the only appropriate challenge these buildings provided was the Research phase. With the new requirement we want to fix this issue for good, with resources that you can get at certain places in the game and are independent from your progress through the chapters.
It is also a challenge that is now more predictable for you. You can work towards it beforehand since we plan to keep this cost structure for all future Ancient Wonders.

So Inno planned to keep the cost structure the same twice before, but this time for sure we plan to not change it again.
Basically, it will change again in a few years time.

Does it take longer to upgrade your Ancient Wonders?
With the new requirements, on average and based on the data we have from the game, it doesn’t take longer to max out an Ancient Wonder than it did before. It might take longer for the players that in the past were able to max them out in a few weeks (leveraging some imbalances in the game, which are now fixed with these new requirements). Rushing through Ancient Wonders was never meant to be the norm, this feature is meant to be a long-term goal and to require time, and rewards participation in other Elvenar activities, such as Tournament and Spire.

Ancient Wonders have always taken weeks and weeks of time, months even regardless of the cost structure.
Until I actually get to SEE the data, I will not believe this claim for one minute.

Support the claims with actual verifiable data, then I will believe.

In the last update, when we expanded them to all Ancient Wonders, we reduced them by 50% following feedback from players in that Chapter. Just consider we are not planning to further change those requirements at the moment. With the introduction of the possibility to get Combining Catalysts and sometimes even Royal Restoration when selling non-chapter related buildings you no longer need, you now have more options to get the upgrade resources for Ancient Wonders steadily over time.

Again Inno, reducing the costs of TWO ancient wonders, but then extending said costs to ALL Ancient Wonders is not an actual reduction. It is semantic jibba-jabba, and the few added options DO NOT cover for this massive increase in required rare materials for cities.

Looking ahead
Thanks for your continued support, we understand not all changes are easy to accept and we’ll keep monitoring your feedback.
We all have one single objective, improve Elvenar to let it last as long as possible. For the Ancient Wonders, this means to keep their challenge, but also the power of their effects in balance – no matter how many more chapters we add in the future. With your ongoing support, we are getting there together.

This was not an improvement in my opinion, so you have blantantly failed in this 'single objective.'

 

[Hekata]

as you voiced many times that for higher chapters, Mana is often one of the most needed resources. With the improved Mana-related Ancient Wonders you can clearly see how much more helpful they are

Please not the irony of this statement: given that the best Mana AW a.k.a. The Dragon Abby was completely nerfed..

Also wroth mentioning that the reason they give here for doing these changes is very different than what they initially stated about changing the costs because the goods needed were hard to come by at the beginning of a chapter or wherever nonsense that was.

I've tried not to be too vocal about these changes because I've been playing long enough to know that once Inno makes a change nerf they never back down even when it becomes crystal clear they made things much worse. (let's all take a moment here to remember the Moonstone library - scrolls disaster, predicted by players on day one and fixed after 2 years... does that count as backing down?) But what is really disappointing for me is Inno's complete lack of communication skills and disrespect of their costumers. and their intelligence. In a game like this, that's meant to be played at slow pace for a very long time, they really should try to do much better on that front. Just like they should try to plan their game better instead of rebalancing it every couple of years.

(And ofc I know this has nothing to do with mods who just try to make the best of it all, I really don't envy their current position. As someone has mentioned it the reaction here was rather mild especially compared to what's happening on Discord, it's a full time job to take care of that uproar....)

 

[Hekata]

Ancient Wonders have always taken weeks and weeks of time, months even regardless of the cost structure.
Until I actually get to SEE the data, I will not believe this claim for one minute.

If people have started to upgrade AWs much faster it's only because they made runes worth a lot of KPs. So it's their own relatively recent mess they are now trying to fix. And they go about it the wrong way ofc, instead of just reducing the worth of runes.

 

[SkyRider99]

Here's an official announcement from Discord.

Cheers @Hekata. I gave your posting a 'like'. Not because I was thrilled with the carefully crafted tripe from Inno, but because I appreciate your conveying the information.

 

[Jake65]

rewards participation in other Elvenar activities, such as Tournament and Spire

IF you're in a reasonably high scoring tourney FS and IF RNGesus smiles upon you in the spire.

Too many ifs for almost 'must have' buildings.

it's only because they made runes wroth a lot of KPs

Very much agree with this. It was like everybody won the AWKP lottery. Did they think we wouldn't make use of it?

 

[SkyRider99]

From Inno:
With the introduction of the possibility to get Combining Catalysts and sometimes even Royal Restoration when selling non-chapter related buildings you no longer need, you now have more options to get the upgrade resources for Ancient Wonders steadily over time.

An intriguing statement. But my Spidey-sense was tingling, so I did a quick check.

So the new draconian measures demand 20 or 30 CCs to perform just one upgrade of an AW. And if I sell a high value culture building they give me back ... wait for it ... 2 or 3 CCs. Why am I not surprised!

I'm reporting this to Tony Stark!!

 

[Hekata]

So the new draconian measures demand 20 or 30 CCs to perform just one upgrade of an AW. And if I sell a high value culture building they give me back ... wait for it ... 2 or 3 CCs. Why am I not surprised!

To be fair, out of the 3 items needed for upgrading AWS, I think that CCs are the least problematic (this applies mostly to well established players ofc, the new players are sadly going to suffer a lot). We can make them and even craft them in the MA, we get them from the Spire both as individual and collective rewards, there are now 5 buildings that produce them, and we can sell some stuff to get a few more CCs + there is Tinlug that also helps a lot.

SF and especially RRs are entirely another matter. And that's where Inno''s statement completely fails. They are dependent on luck and /or hard to come by. In fact most of the buildings that give you RRs when sold are expiring buildings that are either based on luck or premium. The only exception is the Goddess of Wishes and we get one like every weeks?

 

[Hekata]

Very much agree with this. It was like everybody won the AWKP lottery. Did they think we wouldn't make use of it?

That change is the biggest mystery to me. I never understood that sudden generosity. Inno's policy was always to give a little with one hand and at the same time take away a lot with the other (like they did this time too - made a few AWs better but but made them unobtainable to a lot of players).

 

[OldHag]

Does it take longer to upgrade your Ancient Wonders?
With the new requirements, on average and based on the data we have from the game, it doesn’t take longer to max out an Ancient Wonder than it did before. It might take longer for the players that in the past were able to max them out in a few weeks (leveraging some imbalances in the game, which are now fixed with these new requirements). Rushing through Ancient Wonders was never meant to be the norm, this feature is meant to be a long-term goal and to require time, and rewards participation in other Elvenar activities, such as Tournament and Spire.

Hello @InnoGames - who and how many players are you chatting about that maxed their aw's out in a few weeks and are they even still playing your game?
I've been playing since 2018 and have 1 maxed AWs (it was 2 until the new levels added to the MM), and 1 that was ready to upgrade until you changed the costs, now I can't due to a lack of Spell Fragments.
Now I have a small growing queue of aws, that are kp filled but not enough spells fragments to do any of them. Joy!
I think you're basing your 'improvements' on out of date data, which makes you erm....trying to be nice here (lol) I don't know, out of touch, perhaps?
I know when you gave artefacts a value of 15kp when placed in someone elses aw, that led to a dumping of artefacts by a lot of the longer term players, often blocking some from receiving any more donations, which probably led to some new/er players quitting before they really got started, as there was no info (unless you were in a more experienced fs, perhaps) on how to get out of the 'blocked' status.

This is a prime example of how to make a Pigs Ear of something.

 

[Alcaro]

These changes are incomprehensible to me.
I might not be very coherent, but hopefully, you will understand what I mean.

1. They've changed the tournament formula, making the Tournaments and Spire really hard to complete (from a certain level/ province);
2. To mitigate the shock, we got military buildings;
3. We start to get (again) nice amounts of KPs;
4. Wonders' upgrading is **** up badly;
4a. Not everybody is lucky to have several Moonstone Library sets, therefore, a painful lack of CC and Spell Fragments appears at ALL players who are in this situation.
4b. One should refrain to craft in MA, to save the CC and SF for upgrades, this leads to lessssss chances to get the 500 Diamonds reward, and now, with these changes, also those annoying buildings but good candidates for disenchanting.
4c. Events become hard to complete and a total nonsense (from my point of view). Why? Because are too many quests asking to get Vision Vapors (meaning to do exactly what you wanted to avoid) and too many quests asking to solve provinces, get relics aso, which forces you to do something you wouldn't normally do, because you have no use for all those KPs. Same goes for FA. I'll be damned if I'll do a single Arcane residue badge in the future

All of the above bring the next questions: Why would one try to do more than minimum in Tourny, if, anyway, can't use those KPs? But if we do less in tourny, why all the fuss with extra 19 chests? Why should we be thrilled about buildings giving KPs?

Little questions that popped up in my mind and show me that no one at Inno has a general picture of the game AND that NO ONE is actually playing the game, to hit all these walls that we do. They make changes because they can and think that are good, they don't see all the implications that are arising from those changes. When players are pointing out what's not OK, they are too proud to accept they made a mistake, and they try to repair it (call it balance) with another change or addition which, ofc, leads to other problems, and so on.

Btw, the expression "it works as intended" is the one I hate the most in this game.