Question Barracks of Mercs troops ?

[DeletedUser]

Thank you @SoggyShorts @Gargon667 and @Pauly7

Well, i have 5 Armories. I need Orcs badly. I have also put Heroes'.

As a beginner in the military compartment, i might be wrong, but it looks to me that getting the production speed AW's upgraded first. And the training facilities too ?

I found out that having a low level Training Ground takes days to produce just a single pack of troops :-O

Level 10 begins to bring it down to hours, at least in my chapter 11 city. 498 Banshee II takes 3 hours.

Barracks, Merc and Grounds; Is it best to upgrade them as high as possible ?

And regarding the other AW's, Bulwark, Shrooms and Heroes'; How far would you take them ?

Victory Springs of course affects training speed on Training Grounds, so that might be a good thing to put as well ?

Is Toads worth it, and if, how far up ?

 

[BlueBlou]

Toads, definitely. No little helper buildings that boost Heavy Ranged Units damage.

My AM told me long ago to upgrade barracks as high as possible. For me that applies to the other two too. Was for speed at that time, but if you are now at lower levels, that also goes for unlocking the additional training slots.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Barracks, Merc and Grounds; Is it best to upgrade them as high as possible ?
...
As a beginner in the military compartment, i might be wrong, but it looks to me that getting the production speed AW's upgraded first. And the training facilities too ?

Yes, training speed wonders and max level producers makes sense. The possible exception is the victory springs since 90% of fights are completed using ranges units (mage, archer & Heavy ranged) So despite looking like a synergistic wonder (more dogs and better dogs!) it's just not great because light ranged units kinda suck.
No matter how great a light melee unit looks on paper, if it takes 3 arrows to the head before reaching the enemy it's not gonna do much.

That brings us to the heroes forge... a questionable wonder. Orc nests make more orcs than it does and heavy ranged are rarely used so perhaps the KP and space can be better utilized.


For the "must have" military ones I'd take all of them to level 1, then 6 then 11 then 16 etc

1. Monastery/sanctuary
2. Needles
3. Dragon abbey
4. Toads
5. Flying academy

Keep checking your copy of the calculator at www.tinyurl.com/trainingcalc to make sure your
shrooms and bulwark plus armories are giving you a long enough queue time so that your barracks never stops cooking.
note that the merc camp and training ground aren't on the calculator, but they're basically the same as the barracks times.

 

[Aisling1]

HI Elivar, did the same as you.. was almost 2 years off the game before I rejoined.

The following still applies.. any troops you don't have to pay for... ie get from AW's or "culture" - use them in the early rounds.. Surprising sometimes how well 2 star does against 3 star enemies.. but watch that unit nr the whole time.

Drone Riders are often better than archers /rangers, despite what the stats say.. (I'm elf) and when you can use Valorians - do so .. they're almost like human knights...

Don't forget your Dryads.. in some cases much better than archers - but basically, watch your fights and enemies, learn them and watch their unit numbers and know when you can't win a round.. or cater it.

 

[Gargon667]

Barracks, Merc and Grounds; Is it best to upgrade them as high as possible ?

Yes always max all 3 buildings, there is hardly anything more important to upgrade. factories can wait (upgrades don´t make a big difference for efficency, in fact they are bad for you when you get them, they only start being useful over the coming chapters, so no hurry there).

And regarding the other AW's, Bulwark, Shrooms and Heroes'; How far would you take them ?

I don´t use Bulwark and I sold my Heroes. Neither of them offers more than they cost in the tourneys.
Shrooms is the best one of the 3 (the better, the more Armories you have). For Orc production: Armories, Orc Nests and event buildings are all good options. My Shrroms are lvl 21, they would be 30 if not for the new tourney. But really they only need to be as high as they need to be. Make sure your training queue is long enough so it never idles. Once you reach that point, Shrooms don´t need more upgrades. What level that is depends on the level of your troop producing buildings, the level of your troop producing speed-up AWs (Needles, FA) and the number of your armories, so it will change over time.

Victory Springs of course affects training speed on Training Grounds, so that might be a good thing to put as well ?

Another AW that isn´t bad, but not worth having with the new tourneys. It makes you produce more cannon fodder units, which is nice, but it is not winning you the difficult fights. However having the AW makes those difficult fights even more costly. So a no from me.

Is Toads worth it, and if, how far up ?

Yes, lvl 30 is best, but whatever you can afford

In order of appearance: Needles, MM, FA, DragonAbbey, Toads, TWarp, Simia are all must-haves. Must have means, lvl 30 is not too much. Of course it can take a while to get them there, but at least you´ll never regret upgrading any of them. I personally find Needles, FA and TWarp the most powerful ones to boost ASAP. Some of the others are just as powerful, but bigger (MM and Simia) and will require more KP to get up high.

Apart from those there are some other AWs that are worth having even though they don´t boost your tourneys (and in fact make them more expensive), like the Mountain Halls and GA, Prosperity Towers (or the already mentioned Shrooms). Even the ETC is an interesting AW for some. But beyond that I think you are usually better off not having an AW than you are having it... That is of course if you care about your tourney score more than about other things...

 

[Gargon667]

True, but it's better for the tournament formula to have both Bulwark and Shrooms, but at lower levels.

Eh? The best is to have as few AW levels as possible, so for the tourney it is best to upgrade the stronger one of the two and not at all have the other one. That way you max training size compared to AW levels. It is also better in terms of space efficiency.
Even better would be to have the weaker one at lvl 1, of course only in case the weaker one is no less than half as good as the better one, because lvl 1 gives double benefit. However that will decrease your space efficiency.

What you suggest would be maxing training size compared to KP investment. Not saying it is a bad idea for the frugal, but it sure isn´t best in terms of tourney score

 

[Pauly7]

Eh? The best is to have as few AW levels as possible, so for the tourney it is best to upgrade the stronger one of the two and not at all have the other one. That way you max training size compared to AW levels. It is also better in terms of space efficiency.

It depends where you are in progression. Level 1 of the AWs give you much more than the other levels, so Bulwark and Shrooms both on level 1 is much better than Shrooms, only, on level 2... provided you can afford the space.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

@Elivar
Here's a wonders summary I made elsewhere:

First I should probably mention as many of my personal biases as I can admit to:

1. I don't care how a wonder looks.
2. I don't care at all about score/ranking.
3. I like the added challenge of trying to get through chapters quickly.
4. I go for efficiency in buildings over all other considerations.
5. I prefer to fully cater until the end of chapter 6 and convert to all military by the end of chapter 8.
6. I auto-fight encounters in the Spire, Tournament & World Map 99% of the time.
7. My FS gets gold spire every week, wins ~12 tournament chests on average, and visits me every day.
8. I'm content with 4.5K weekly tournament score due to time constraints.

Keeping in mind that playstyles vary here's my list more or less in order

Spoiler: Martial Monastery/Sanctuary

Having better troops is far better than making more troops because it's cheaper and sometimes you win fights that you otherwise would lose.

Spoiler: Timewarp

This wonder not only really improves your real life but saves you pet food and most importantly lets you use the 5-day booster buildings for 2 full tournaments and 2 full spires at higher levels.

Spoiler: Needles of the tempest

Light ranged are the core of your army and your barracks will be your main producer for a long time.

Spoiler: Shrine of Shrewdy Shrooms/ Dwarven Bulwark

at least one of these is pretty much a necessity for any city using a military. Armories alone take up too much space(and pop) to run your troop makers 24h a day.
You can use a simple calculator to try different combinations and see what works for you here:
www.tinyurl.com/trainingcalc

Spoiler: Dragon Abbey

The ability to gain instant mana on demand is a game-changer, and mages are your second most important unit.

Spoiler: Prosperity Towers

With a reasonable number of collections this out produces a normal workshop.
More importantly, the power of the PoP spell is crazy a decently leveled PT turns 1 workshop into 4 for an entire day.

Spoiler: Simia Sapiens

Free troops are better than making troops faster and it affects all 3 of your troop makers. For comparison:
A level 30 needles doubles your barracks production (+100%)
A level 30 Simia adds 40% to your Barracks, Training Grounds, and Merc camp. (+40% x3)
But, it's multiplied together, so if your Needles is at +100% AND your Simia is at +40% you are making 280%

Spoiler: Mountain halls/Golden Abyss

These are solid wonders, but slow. The impact that they have on your city is significant, but not until they are leveled quite high and I've found that focusing on military wonders will advance your city further faster.
What's noteworthy about these two is that although the MtH has a much larger footprint, unless you have very few factories the mountain halls is actually more efficient. Obviously, the more factories you have the greater the difference.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11E-55Z2yjKQt_Prr_aF9cnqUYN_6a1ksQDsbNNfZ8vI/edit?usp=sharing

It's important to note that the population boost is based on your working population which for an efficient military city is much lower. Having event buildings produce goods means fewer factories and more military means fewer goods are needed as well.

Spoiler: Flying academy

For elves this building becomes very important about halfway through chapter 10 when you unlock 2-star blossom mages. since the merc camp is your only source of long-range mage units and 2-star blossoms are better than 3-star sorcs/banshees.
For humans getting free Priests is pretty great since they are super troops right out of the gate.
Later the 3-star frog will become another pillar of your forces which is also produced in the Merc camp.

Spoiler: Temple of the Toads

For elves Until you get good frogs, your main Heavy Ranged source will be Golems who remain useful throughout due to their tankiness, so having better ones combined with free ones is nice. For humans, this wonder only really starts to shine after unlocking good frogs as mortars are generally considered pretty weak.

Some honorable mentions:

Spoiler: Endless Excavation

More efficient than any workshop that isn't under a PoP spell especially regular workshops. Drops off once you move up to all magic workshops and pretty much dies if you are a heavy PoP user.

Spoiler: Tome of secrets

Excellent starting wonder, far better than the Golden Abyss out of the box but becomes obsolete late game. I wouldn't take it past level 6, and if I was a slow player, I wouldn't build it at all.

Spoiler: Victory Springs

With the obvious double dip of making better dogs and faster dogs this was a nice wonder before the changes, but now that wonder levels increase all of your troop costs its desirability has dropped. 90%+ of fights can be handled without Melee units so you can give this one a pass.

Spoiler: Elvenar Trade Center

You don't need seeds all the time, and the Festival Merchant is better at that anyways. Where this wonder is useful is in making your MM spells last all day and giving them a little boost. This can help you get through chapters faster when applied to Sentient factories but realistically using the space for another factory does the same thing and can be teleported when not needed and won't require any KP investment. If you aren't using a lot of MM spells you can give this one a pass too.

The rest are basically trash for any playstyle similar to mine.
The ones that give culture bonuses simply aren't needed past the wood elves chapter where all mana buildings give culture on top of all event buildings so you're maxed all the time anyways.
The non-culture ones are either score-based or inferior to event/craftable buildings.

 

[Pauly7]

I guess everyone will have a personal preference when ranking their favourite AWs in order. Here is mine:

1. Sanctuary / Martial Monastery - Improving health of all troops. No brainer.
2= Needles / Flying Academy - I can't separate them. Improving attack power of LR is much better than a handful of free Mages, but later in the game it's much more important to have a fast Merc Camp.
4. Prosperity Towers - Massive improvements to the potency of PoP spells, plus extra supplies every 3 hours. Essential for any playstyle.
5. Simia Sapiens - Free troops. No brainer. Reducing sentient decay is also a very handy side-bonus.
6= Dwarven Bulwark / Shrine of the Shrooms - All that extra training speed needs extra training size.
8. Timewarp - I was unsure exactly where to place this. It's an amazing wonder, but for me personally I cater the Spire so I have no need for combat buildings to span two spires. So in my case it only improves up until about level 12 where I can fight the week's tournament on 2 pet foods. I do realise there could be a slight extra benefit, though, if I pretty much maxed it out, fed my Polar Bear and was willing to play 6 tournament rounds at once.
9. Temple of the Toads - Improving the attack power of HR cannot be overlooked. Of the 3 main troop types they're the only one that can't be boosted by temp combat buildings.
10. Dragon Abbey - Feels like a low ranking now, but still an essential wonder as it can cater for all your mana needs.
11. Mountain Halls - Worth it just for the population boost and the extra goods is useful for most people
12. Golden Abyss - As a Spire caterer the coins are useful to me, plus it also has the same population boost as MH and very cheap to upgrade

Honourable Mentions:

Elvenar Trade Centre - Extra seeds can be useful, plus improvement to the MM spell is good for anyone who caters
Heroes' Forge - Very debatable, but some extra HM clout has its use when seen as an addition to the extra Orc output
Pyramid of Purification - Even more debatable. If you need the extra sentient then it give some welcome extra. In addition to the extra troops it's almost worth it. The thing that persuades me to keep it is that it gives a little extra boost to the Heroes' Forge, which is also on my question mark list
Victory Springs - I really have no interest in extra Training Grounds speed, but you can get some benefit by beefing up the LM attack. This allows you to use LM as cannon fodder for a few more provinces.

The above mentioned AWs are all the ones that I still own. Each of the four below the line I sit and contemplate deleting now and again, but for now they've remained.... Oh, and I still have my Great Bell Spire, but I shouldn't - I just like how it looks.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

I guess everyone will have a personal preference when ranking their favourite AWs in order.

Yup, but really despite significant differences in city design and playstyle we ended up with similar lists which says a lot.
For me (other than the timewarp) I'd upgrade all of the good ones more or less evenly with no more than 5 levels between the lowest and highest so the exact order isn't super important.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you especially @SoggyShorts @Gargon667 and @Pauly7 for the thorough explanations

It will take me some time all this upgrading, but i can see that some of them, the AW's, that i have build which gave my former only goods producing city a boost, now helps me producing troops

Just to level the ground; I don't care about the looks of a building if it will give me needed benefits. Rank/points are not a priority. Get the most done by the least amount of effort and get as much for as little as possible, AND; FUN - Having FUN I don't play this game to have another job - i play for enjoyment

So if i start out with what i have:

GA - 30
MH - 21
PT - 13
Dragon - 11
Pyramid - 8
Sapiens - 9

ETC - 16
Maze - 9
Timewarp - 7
Sunset - 11

FA - 4
Needles - 4
Monastery - 2
Heroes' - 2
Shrooms - 1
Bulwark - 1

Barracks - 21
Merc - 5
T. Grounds - 8

Endless - 1
Tomb - 16 (KP's)
Watchtower - 12
BTG - 16
Lighthouse - 12
LoGN - 3

5 Armories, 4*21 + 1*20 (upgrading is priority, Orcs)
2 Orcs Nest (And will craft one more today)

Panda Bear + Storm Phoenix
Stonehenge + 4 Mermaids

So of course i need to upgrade the military buildings, but as i do not have enough T2+T3 production to cater, i need to try and balance the things; Well if i wanna do tournament that is ;-)

But that is the game to me; Tournament

So i need to somehow get by with the slow upgrade and still keep kicking some butt and pay my way ;-)

Regarding the troops, as per https://elvengems.com/tournament/crystal/ Ranger's should be good, but i can't see that. My Sword Acrobats do much better. Though the Treants are good, they rarely take a beating.

I wonder how it is that there's differences in this, or at least some of it, and i only talk Tournament here, Spire is another story which i only will do something about if i have too many troops or goods at some point that i don't know what to do with. I just think that the winnings doesn't compare to the outcome in so called prizes.

But as i read it, it's a good idea to make sure that not as many troops gets killed as possible; Upgrading Monastery is priority ?

The i wonder about Training Grounds, some love and some hate it.

When taking into account that i just want to go 10 provinces 6 rounds, that that's the goal, nothing more. But of course, if there's troops left, then they of course can and will be put to use ;-)

Are the different Tournament types that different regarding troops and hardness in fights that i need to train all sorts of troops to get by ?

 

[Pauly7]

But as i read it, it's a good idea to make sure that not as many troops gets killed as possible; Upgrading Monastery is priority ?

Absolutely. Definitely get some work in on your Monastery. In fact...

FA - 4
Needles - 4
Monastery - 2
Heroes' - 2
Shrooms - 1
Bulwark - 1

This whole section (perhaps ignoring Heroes') are ones to think about post-haste.

The i wonder about Training Grounds, some love and some hate it.

There's not too much to love about the Training Grounds, but as mentioned before it's worth having there to get extra troop numbers and if you're only working within 10 provinces then they'll seem virtually as useful as the others anyway.

Are the different Tournament types that different regarding troops and hardness in fights that i need to train all sorts of troops to get by ?

Yes, in a word. Here's a graphic that should help you. This is a breakdown of numbers of enemy types encountered in each tournament type:

 

[BlueBlou]

May I ask about those graphics, Pauly. How many cities, how many rounds, how many tournaments were those stats compiled from?

 

[CrazyWizard]

I guess everyone will have a personal preference when ranking their favourite AWs in order. Here is mine:

1. Sanctuary / Martial Monastery - Improving health of all troops. No brainer.
2= Needles / Flying Academy - I can't separate them. Improving attack power of LR is much better than a handful of free Mages, but later in the game it's much more important to have a fast Merc Camp.
4. Prosperity Towers - Massive improvements to the potency of PoP spells, plus extra supplies every 3 hours. Essential for any playstyle.
5. Simia Sapiens - Free troops. No brainer. Reducing sentient decay is also a very handy side-bonus.
6= Dwarven Bulwark / Shrine of the Shrooms - All that extra training speed needs extra training size.
8. Timewarp - I was unsure exactly where to place this. It's an amazing wonder, but for me personally I cater the Spire so I have no need for combat buildings to span two spires. So in my case it only improves up until about level 12 where I can fight the week's tournament on 2 pet foods. I do realise there could be a slight extra benefit, though, if I pretty much maxed it out, fed my Polar Bear and was willing to play 6 tournament rounds at once.
9. Temple of the Toads - Improving the attack power of HR cannot be overlooked. Of the 3 main troop types they're the only one that can't be boosted by temp combat buildings.
10. Dragon Abbey - Feels like a low ranking now, but still an essential wonder as it can cater for all your mana needs.

don't forget that abbey also boost your mage units

11. Mountain Halls - Worth it just for the population boost and the extra goods is useful for most people
12. Golden Abyss - As a Spire caterer the coins are useful to me, plus it also has the same population boost as MH and very cheap to upgrade

both not bad

Honourable Mentions:

Elvenar Trade Centre - Extra seeds can be useful, plus improvement to the MM spell is good for anyone who caters
Heroes' Forge - Very debatable, but some extra HM clout has its use when seen as an addition to the extra Orc output
Pyramid of Purification - Even more debatable. If you need the extra sentient then it give some welcome extra. In addition to the extra troops it's almost worth it. The thing that persuades me to keep it is that it gives a little extra boost to the Heroes' Forge, which is also on my question mark list
Victory Springs - I really have no interest in extra Training Grounds speed, but you can get some benefit by beefing up the LM attack. This allows you to use LM as cannon fodder for a few more provinces.

The above mentioned AWs are all the ones that I still own. Each of the four below the line I sit and contemplate deleting now and again, but for now they've remained.... Oh, and I still have my Great Bell Spire, but I shouldn't - I just like how it looks.

2 removed that arent worth the mention, heroes forge becomes hopeless later in game when armouries become much stronger in producing orcs and piramid maybe as a human paladins are nice but as an elf hopeless treants are just that hopeless.

Instead add tower of neighbourly help, the synergy boosted hammer spells (prosperity tower), ensorcelled spells (tower of neighbourly help) can boost you hammer production into heavens and is very nice if you need to get rid of a a lot of timeboosters or just to feed your very hungry 3 unit production buildings, and if you like the gold coins of the abyss you like the gold coins of improved culture bonus even more

 

[Pauly7]

2 removed that arent worth the mention, heroes forge becomes hopeless later in game when armouries become much stronger in producing orcs and piramid maybe as a human paladins are nice but as an elf hopeless treants are just that hopeless.

Well, those under the line were on the debatable list... I do agree with you, insofar as if I was having a do-over then I wouldn't ever build those wonders again. For now, though, they have evaded my delete button. I only ever have one of each sentient manu, so some extra along with Orcs pick ups is nice to have. Having extra HM attack power does help because when you use those troops as cannon fodder through early provinces then you can protect your good troops for a bit longer.

Instead add tower of neighbourly help

Had that and it was one of the first ones I deleted with the new tournament style. My reasoning was that I was no longer able to pick up as many EE spells so I wasn't going to be able to make as good use of it going forwards. As it happens I've ramped up tournament scores since that time so... meh... yeah I could still imagine wanting to have it around, but for now I feel I'm better without putting the extra AW levels back. It could easily find its way onto the honourable list, though, if I still had it.

 

[Pauly7]

May I ask about those graphics, Pauly. How many cities, how many rounds, how many tournaments were those stats compiled from?

One city. One round of 9 weeks, but going a minimum of 40 provinces each and all six rounds completed.

 

[Gargon667]

Regarding the troops, as per https://elvengems.com/tournament/crystal/ Ranger's should be good, but i can't see that. My Sword Acrobats do much better. Though the Treants are good, they rarely take a beating.

that is old tourney info, forget it (unless they recently updated all their info to new tourneys???)

I wonder how it is that there's differences in this, or at least some of it, and i only talk Tournament here, Spire is another story which i only will do something about if i have too many troops or goods at some point that i don't know what to do with. I just think that the winnings doesn't compare to the outcome in so called prizes.

quite the opposite, the spire produces more goods than it costs

But as i read it, it's a good idea to make sure that not as many troops gets killed as possible; Upgrading Monastery is priority ?

Looking at your AWs, you definitely should get Needles, FA and MM to something like 16 before you do anything else...
Depending on how much affection you have for the AWs you already have you could get rid of a bunch of them to make tourneys cheaper... Depends if you prefer AW building over tourney scores (which I guess most people do).

Are the different Tournament types that different regarding troops and hardness in fights that i need to train all sorts of troops to get by ?

The tourney types are different in term of which enemies you encounter, but you can fight all of them with LR, M and HR, no need for melee troops. Well in extremely rare cases they can be useful but nothing worth worrying about.

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

Spire is another story which i only will do something about if i have too many troops or goods at some point that i don't know what to do with. I just think that the winnings doesn't compare to the outcome in so called prizes.

I'd do zero in the tournament before giving up the incredible spire rewards.

1. Getting DAs that are worth 2 UUUs each makes everything else sustainable
2. Profiting hundreds of hours in timers even if I rush the gates is awesome.
3. Replacing all of my workshops& residences with magical ones for free is incredible.
4. Teleport spells are a very nice QoL reward.

Then the best part is the thousands and thousands of free diamonds that the spire gives.

• Genies that give diamonds,
• Individual gates that give diamonds
• Bosses that give diamonds
• FS rewards that give diamonds
• CC's and Spell fragments that I craft with for mystical objects that give diamonds

Between 2 cities the spire gives me over 1,000 free diamonds per week.

 

[DeletedUser]

Okay, now i will just take that Spire thing for itself here then; Where in the world do you find that Spire which is giving more than you put into it ??

I can tell you it's not mine. It takes tons of goods and gives back lousy fragments, coins or supply instants most of the time, My Spire does not add up. Ohh, and the fights, same problem. Dead, thrown out. Not worth it as mine is working ;-)

 

[Deleted User - 341074]

It takes tons of goods and gives back lousy fragments, coins or supply instants most of the time

I can't speak to this as I autofight everything in the spire, but I think @Pauly7 caters?

Ohh, and the fights, same problem. Dead, thrown out. Not worth it as mine is working ;-)

This takes some time, planning, and a city that is focused on it to fix.

1. You need a little stash of 1,2, and 5h Timer instants (approx 80h total)*
2. You need 5-day booster buildings to make it easy (ideally 2x UUU + 1x ELR +1x MMM) Double the ELR&MMM if you don't have a Fire Bird.
3. You have to place those 5-day boosters on a Thursday or Friday so that you can make use of them for 2 whole spires
4. You should be in a FS that reaches the same reward level that you reach (bronze/silver/gold if you complete 1/2/3 floors)

Monastery, needles, and dragon abbey are important too as they serve the same function as the 5-day boosters.
*Rushing every gate with timers costs just under 80 hours worth but the spire rewards well over 100h worth so it's more than sustainable, and you can even use excess timers on your barracks to replace troops faster.