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Spire Specialist City

Pauly7

Magus
Just wanting to pick some brains about this, if that's OK.

I'm asking for a friend... genuinely!... who is interesting in building a city which is designed with the sole main purpose of winning Spire gold medals. Her city currently sits in the Dwarf chapter. Any advice that I may not have thought of would be welcome.

At this point, she isn't used to going to the top of the Spire every week, but she's willing to knock down and rebuild as much as is necessary to make that job as easy as possible and make the city the most Spire efficient. My advice, so far, was to advance in the tech tree as far as Orcs, then sit there, with only the optimum Ancient Wonders. Of course an eye would need to be kept on pulling in reasonable tournament scores in order to meet the requirements of a gold fellowship.
 

Hekata

Artisan
Since the tournament and the Spire now use the same formula, I think it's the same set up that would work the best for both?
Although it depends if she wants to fight or cater (play diplomacy), different Aws...
 

Pauly7

Magus
Although it depends if she wants to fight or cater (play diplomacy), different Aws...
It could be either. The city can be rebuilt from the ground up for max Spire efficiency. I'm not sure whether it's better to concentrate on just one or the other, or a mix.

I should add - Don't say advance to chapter 15 and unlock 3 star Merc Camp troops. It's a choice between this diamond building experiment or quitting the game.
 

Hekata

Artisan
IMO her success in the Spire depends more on her ability to fight/do diplomacy than the actual city. As long as it's not an extreme city with a lot of Aw levels/expansions she should be able to do either.

I only do diplomacy so I recommend the MH at a high enough level (mine is 21) at least 5 T1 manus at max level and 3-4 of the other 2 tiers, high level Prosperity towers for supplies, getting a lot of PoP and EE spells from the tournament (and MM) and crafting coin and supplies instants when possible. But, again, if she wants to also do a decent score in tournaments it's the same set up we all try to have more or less (military aws plus 1 - 3 with general city benefits). There are not that many Aw available at her level anyway. I'd go with MH, PT, GA, Monastery and Needles. (+DB maybe but it might just be enough to have a 3 or 4 armouries instead?)

But, again, I think it's more about organising the city to have lots of goods/supplies/coins and learning how to do diplomacy (or have enough troops and learn to fight manually) than any special setup, especially in orcs when you only need T1-3 and coins/supplies.
 

BlueBlou

Illusionist
Minimum expansions placed. If your friend is good at playing mastermind, concentrate on the negotiating side and get a perfect balanced city wrt coins, tools and goods where your production is more than your use. Any chapter city potentially can go to the top of spire, so no suggestion wrt that aspect. Human nature may also play a role in whether someone goes to the top or not. Not so easy to change that side of things,
 

Pauly7

Magus
Part of me is inclined to agree with you both. I almost always cater in the Spire so I know what that's like and what it's all about... but then that's mostly because I have tournament performance in mind and I like to keep my Spire resources separate from my tournament resources.

In this case the focus would very much be on the Spire. The resources needed, no matter which one is used, are more finite because the Spire stops at the top. Playing in tournaments will almost certainly need to come into it, for the sake of the fellowship (as yet not chosen), but in an ideal world we're talking about needing to average 1,600 - 2,000 tournament points a week... enough to meet a requirement. With the new tournament style this will be pretty easy for most people and not lean too heavily on resources.

Becoming good at Spire "mastermind" is a short term job. Once people understand the logic then it's fine and done, so we can assume that is an option.

So option 1 is negotiating fully. The whole city could be filled with manufactories, workshops, residences, plus enough culture to drive the coins/supplies output up high enough. Along with, (as you say @Hekata) a MH, GA and PT.

Option 2 would be to keep all three of Barracks, Training Grounds, Merc Camp, load up with enough Armouries to power the training queues for long enough, then have an evolved Monastery, Needles, PT.

Option 3 is a mix of the two.

Considering by the Orcs chapter there wouldn't be any troop boosting AWs available, or Victory Springs or Flying Academy I'm thinking that maybe making a solely negotiating city could be the best idea, sat in the Orcs chapter before Orcs are required in the Spire.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
Since most of the Forum regulars are at end-game (or at least have access to high * rated late-game Troops), I thought it may be worth passing on my own recent Spire Combat experience, because I myself have just (today) moved out of Fairies and into Orcs & Goblins. I have found that entering O&G has caused all of my Spire Enemy Troop Units - or at least those seen past Encounter 12, where I was when I started O&G - to be uprated from 2* to 3*. This makes a very large difference to my ability to use Combat in the Spire; speaking as an almost exclusively Manual fighter of somewhat above-average ability, I now find that where I was formerly able to fight about 75% of the Spire, I can now fight closer to 25%. I never Auto-fight in the Spire.

Therefore Goods and Resources will become a far greater Spire priority than formerly, at my stage of the game - and I would also suggest that the Mercenary Camp, certainly until its Units are at least at 2* and probably 3*, may well be almost completely useless (for both Spire and Tournament), and the Training Grounds, too, are of very questionable and niche use only, unless my presently 2* Cerberus Units (either through gaining 3* status or because the game's Combat system is considerably altered to better favour Melee Troops) become much more useful than they have been up until now in either the Spire (always) and/or the Tournament (since the new version). I find that the Spire Enemy Units are almost always best opposed solely with LR (75% or so), HR (20% or so) and Mages (5% or so), and since the new Tournaments began, the same is now true of those battles, too. NB: I play as an Elf, so it's worth mentioning that Human Priests may be far more useful (in terms of Mage use) than my 3* Sorceresses, and my 3* Golems may be better than Mortars, although more often than not, my Orc Strategists (5 x GotoS), even though only 1*, are better than Golems.

As far as Goods and Resources production goes, I can sustainably reach the end of Stage 2 of the Spire each week, and sometimes further (although it becomes extremely expensive, so I do this only rarely) with 6 x Tier 1 and 2 x Tier 2 Manufactories (currently fully levelled to end of Fairies), plus only 1 x Tier 3 (still only at level 12), since at my stage the new Tournaments (and the Spire since it began) are very heavy on T1, less so on T2, and notably light on T3, and this level of demand has also, so far, generally applied to Research, as well. It is also easy, at least at the moment, to up-trade T1 for the other two Tiers, since the new Tournaments seem to have caused a much increased T1 demand on my Server (Arendyll) and many Cities, especially larger ones, now very often down-trade, including T3 for T1, whereas Cross-Tier Trades (in Standard Goods, at least) were generally quite rare before the new Tournaments began to take effect. This will probably change in the long term, of course, as players adapt to the newly created T1 Goods demand, but even before the new Tournament, I did not find my Goods unbalanced (or my T1 in excess) while using the same T1:T2:T3 ratio (no need for Cross-Tier).

I have 6 x non-Magic Workshops, currently at one level below the Fairies maximum, and they are more than sufficient (without Endless Excavation or Prosperity Towers), although I do have three Evolving Buildings which provide about a further 2 x Workshops' worth of Supplies per 24 hours, which obviously helps a lot. Coins are no problem at all at my stage; I have far too many and have to waste them each day (based on Population coming almost exclusively from 3 x Magic and otherwise Standard Residences; I have few Pop/Culture hybrids, and my Culture bonus is 160% unboosted).

I have five AWs at present: Golden Abyss, Martial Monastery, Needles of the Tempest, Mountain Halls, and Dwarven Bulwark (which I may or may not replace with Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms; or I may keep both), and only three Armouries, levelled-up to the end of Fairies. I have only two Premium Expansions and do not intend to buy more, although my lack of space (I am also avoiding placing three Standard Expansions currently in Inventory) is something of a problem in terms of Population - hence the low number of Armouries and the low-levelled single Tier 3 Manufactory. I tend to stick with what appears to me to be an 'average build' (which is why I do not much rely on Pop/Culture hybrids), since I feel that this is probably what the game's devs expect and so I am not likely to encounter unpleasant surprises, as it were, in the future (e.g. nerfs which are difficult to incorporate into less 'standard' builds), but of course much of my City could be better optimised (e.g. more Pop/Culture hybrids rather than space-hungry Residences, for example) if I were to be less cautious - or if, like your friend, I did not intend to proceed past O&G in any case.

Sorry to waffle on as usual (lifelong habit...) and I hope that the above info may be somewhat useful to a person at roughly the same stage as myself.

Edit : For some reason I kept writing 'Dwarves' instead of 'Fairies'... sorry for any confusion. Doh.
 
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Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
If the idea is to never go beyond Orcs, then fighting L3 of the Spire would be between difficult and impossible. This is not a question of sufficient troop production, but simply the fact that the best troops are not available at that point (enemy troops do not have that problem). Unless there are unlimited military boosters, fighting won't be very efficient.

Negotiating, however, can be done at any chapter all the way to the very top - every week. Obviously, this needs some decent production, but nothing that can't be done. Still requires decent skills at the catering game, or L3 runs can bankrupt anyone.

With that in mind, one can skip all the military AWs/buildings, and focus solely on catering. Up to 2K points in the tournaments is probably doable with pure catering as well.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
If it's only the spire?

keep is small keep it efficient. (yes I havent won a single premium building in this city in over a year now :S)
1604476571251.png

It's cheap, it's efficient, it's fairly "quick" to make as you only need to complete 3 chapters and a bit.
Do not get past the reseach for max T1 factories, if you can replace regular expansions with premium ones from the diamonds you win.

The additional advantage, if in the buildup stage you lack some goods, ask for help, a 3 hour production of a large player is enough to keep you going in both spire and tournaments for about a week.
So cheap, and might be needed sometimes since it takes a while to build up T2 production.

But this is quite fun, If I only could replace the T1 production also for daily pickups that would be amazing :p
still waiting on that premium workshop, I would love to be less careful with my supplies

ps. the wonder is there only top "clear up" the runecircle so I can make broken runschards for the recipes
This is my I do not want to spend time on this city, but I like the free premium.
 
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Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
its easy, dont place any expansions and advance to chapter 3. and nothing more. Try not to boost your boosted goods at all (so def don't do those tournaments), you can try to get rid of some of your bonus relics by building and upgrading some of your wonders (and tear them down again later on). I'm having a city like that, and this is my negotiating costs in spire map 3, encounter 1.

1604497984397.png1604498074904.png
This account wants to do tournament as well tho so its advancing further (up to orc chapter), so my cost is already higher then it used to be.

I have to admit im having a blast with this account trying to keep it ultrasmall and ultracheap.

Ofcourse ill get some expansions for guest races, but im waiting for expansions offer to get some premium expansions in (since those penalise you less then normal expansions)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Thanks all for your suggestions.

@Heymrdiedier @CrazyWizard, this city is already in Dwarves, so stopping earlier than that is not on the table. (Also, it isn't my city).

@Heymrdiedier in that screenshot that city looks like it isn't producing any goods or troops. How can that work?

Anyway, the ultra-small stuff doesn't matter. I understand the concept of the perfect tiny city with goods not being boosted, but that kind of stuff isn't a consideration for these purposes. As I say, this city is already in Dwarves and is developed normally to this point. Plus I don't think my friend will want to get enough into the science of it to start picking and choosing tournaments anyway. It's also not usually a tactic that's condusive for a decent fellowship.

So I'm definitely leaning towards suggesting that this should be done by pure catering. It's a pity that the barracks will already be there (I think), but I guess there's a small fall back on fighting the earliest provinces when needed/desired.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I can´t say I have experience playing spire at lower than woodelves level, but honestly I see no problem for anyone in any chapter to finish the spire, especially not if that is the only goal.
I suppose I would go for doing both fighting and negotiating. Simply because often one is clearly better than the other and having the option to do either will be an advantage.
Same general rules as with tourney apply of course. So I guess deleteing all non-military AWs will be the easiest way to make the spire simple as well. Anyway the spire is so simple I would really not go nuts about doing something crazy just for that purpose.

If it was a second town for someone that really has no other interest in the game for that city, then make a new city and play it to chapter 3 with no additional expansions and AWs, make sure you have enough gold/supplies, feed the city a few goods from a big city, be done with it.
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Thanks all for your suggestions.

@Heymrdiedier @CrazyWizard, this city is already in Dwarves, so stopping earlier than that is not on the table. (Also, it isn't my city).

@Heymrdiedier in that screenshot that city looks like it isn't producing any goods or troops. How can that work?

Anyway, the ultra-small stuff doesn't matter. I understand the concept of the perfect tiny city with goods not being boosted, but that kind of stuff isn't a consideration for these purposes. As I say, this city is already in Dwarves and is developed normally to this point. Plus I don't think my friend will want to get enough into the science of it to start picking and choosing tournaments anyway. It's also not usually a tactic that's condusive for a decent fellowship.

So I'm definitely leaning towards suggesting that this should be done by pure catering. It's a pity that the barracks will already be there (I think), but I guess there's a small fall back on fighting the earliest provinces when needed/desired.

yup I should have not build the barracks, unfortunatly I already had build it (you can skip it just wait untill the next chapter) when I decided to make it a town like this.

As for being at dwarves, if it's an option start over it's quicker, if that isn't an option (because you need the diamonds on another world for your own world) then it's ok as long as you do not get past the orcs chapter. and just do not place any more expansion. strip your wonders and max out production and negotiate to the top.
 

Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
buying goods from the wholesaler maybe ??
i know im gonna get negative feedback from this, but i plan to use most of my goods from spire set ^^, and maybe some other evolving good buildings. For now it just all comes from wholesaler indeed and what i produced before (trashed all the production since my boost was low, to get more population, so i could upgrade my main hall).

That account is still work in progress, its going up slowly, but steadily. (only in chapter 4 atm)
 

Pauly7

Magus
Since starting this conversation, at which time I was advising a friend, it inspired me to have a go at this myself. I started a new city, haven't built the barracks or anything military. I'm about to move into chapter 3, right now and I have a city footprint of 4x4 expansion squares. I can feel this out for myself, but if anyone has any thoughts on the most efficient way to proceed, the best place to stop advancing through the chapters, the best configuration of manus, workshops and residences, etc... I would be glad to hear.

For those who haven't read the earlier conversation, the idea is to create the best small, efficient, catering only city, in order to get to the top of the Spire each week, do a modest amount in tournaments (I could live with 2k a week) and ultimately be a source of diamonds for me.

Here's what I have so far:

Win City - 29.11.20.PNG


What I'm most unsure of is how many more expansions to place, because that can't be undone of course. My original idea was to get to the end of the Fairies chapter and then place Mountain Halls and Prosperity Towers, though I'm wondering whether I would get the benefit from the MH considering its size and the relatively small amount of goods I will be getting from manus.

The only element of this I don't want to concern myself with is the idea of not increasing my goods production bonus by not taking the wrong relics. I don't really want to have to skip certain tournaments and that's a bit too much of an in depth thing for me to be worrying about - especially considering you have to compare the reduced catering costs against the fact that you will be producing less goods.

Obviously things may change a bit if I can win some Spire sets and event buildings.
 

Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
Since starting this conversation, at which time I was advising a friend, it inspired me to have a go at this myself. I started a new city, haven't built the barracks or anything military. I'm about to move into chapter 3, right now and I have a city footprint of 4x4 expansion squares. I can feel this out for myself, but if anyone has any thoughts on the most efficient way to proceed, the best place to stop advancing through the chapters, the best configuration of manus, workshops and residences, etc... I would be glad to hear.

For those who haven't read the earlier conversation, the idea is to create the best small, efficient, catering only city, in order to get to the top of the Spire each week, do a modest amount in tournaments (I could live with 2k a week) and ultimately be a source of diamonds for me.

Here's what I have so far:

View attachment 4973

What I'm most unsure of is how many more expansions to place, because that can't be undone of course. My original idea was to get to the end of the Fairies chapter and then place Mountain Halls and Prosperity Towers, though I'm wondering whether I would get the benefit from the MH considering its size and the relatively small amount of goods I will be getting from manus.

The only element of this I don't want to concern myself with is the idea of not increasing my goods production bonus by not taking the wrong relics. I don't really want to have to skip certain tournaments and that's a bit too much of an in depth thing for me to be worrying about - especially considering you have to compare the reduced catering costs against the fact that you will be producing less goods.

Obviously things may change a bit if I can win some Spire sets and event buildings.

I'm also doing this at the moment, this is my city. A bit smaller then yours and only bought premium expansions so far (want to try to do it with premium ones only).
Capture.JPG


I just started chapter 5, and am planning to get to orcs chapter and then see how I manage. I'm not planning on going higher at the moment, because i dont want orcs as negotiation cost in spire, so thats my current end goal. But who knows time might teach me i need to adapt again.

My main challenge at the moment is keeping my bonus boost low. I am only building and upgrading that abyss to get my boost relics down again. This way i can keep the spire pretty cheap.
This is cost of spire encounter 1
spire.PNG


Because of the low cost, I don't need manufactories, and that also mean i dont really need workshops and i can get the hammers i need from quests.

Its a challenge and its slow, but its keeping me in the game atm. If I didn't have this new challenge, I would have quit this game over the depression that followed the last tournament update.
 

Pauly7

Magus
That certainly is compact. I'll be able to see what my starting negotiation cost in the Spire is soon... Hopefully this week. I'm guessing mine will be a little higher, but I think if I kept it as compact as yours then I wouldn't have much freedom.

I'd like to get a Spire set in and if i do go as far as Orcs then I imagine I'll need to increase my 4 x 4 to 5 x 5 or something... If I'm to place PT and MH. I'm really not sure yet, though, hence I'm not rushing into placing more expansions.
 

Gargon667

Mentor
I wonder why you both plan on going so high? If the only point is to play the spire. I see no reason to go much farther than chapter 4 or maybe 5. A 2k tourney average is easily achievable in chapter 4 as well. The higher you go the more expensive everything gets.
You should have your goods boost at max soon enough and follow the standard equation, until then you may have things easier and cheaper if you´re lucky, but anyway. Don´t place AWs at all and expansions only as far as you have to for putting in factories. Possibly you´ll need the factory upgrades to lvl 15 in chapter 5 Is MainHall chap 4 or 5? But then I would stop as soon as you have these, no more tech... After that scouting/tourney/spire, no more wasting of stuff on anything else. All KP are of course wasted, but you can make friends in your FS, by freely spreading the love around :)
 

CrazyWizard

Shaman
Spire is a pretence for diamonds, the real goal is a tournam
I wonder why you both plan on going so high? If the only point is to play the spire. I see no reason to go much farther than chapter 4 or maybe 5. A 2k tourney average is easily achievable in chapter 4 as well. The higher you go the more expensive everything gets.
You should have your goods boost at max soon enough and follow the standard equation, until then you may have things easier and cheaper if you´re lucky, but anyway. Don´t place AWs at all and expansions only as far as you have to for putting in factories. Possibly you´ll need the factory upgrades to lvl 15 in chapter 5 Is MainHall chap 4 or 5? But then I would stop as soon as you have these, no more tech... After that scouting/tourney/spire, no more wasting of stuff on anything else. All KP are of course wasted, but you can make friends in your FS, by freely spreading the love around :)

the real reason to build one, tournament destruction ;)

If it's just spire you just need room for goods production, preferably no factories so you can keep your relic bonus at 0
I am not sure if the trader from the MA for t1 goods is any good. I build mine with T1 factories en the library set for t2, I do not need t3 as I am in chapter 4 and stay there.
 
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