Fair Trade

[rock stream]

I've been advised that in later chapters it is impossible to trade fair. You need to cross tier down trade to progress. Members in our fellowship want to use the game star rating system for cross tier down trading. Our existing trading rule was 1:1 ratio for all cross tier down trades. Although that isn't exactly fair it was better than the game rating of trades and kept cross tier trades very low. 1:1 trades usually got taken fairly quick (maybe not scrolls).

 

[Wibbly Woo]

The “fair ratio” will depend on the stage of the city.

On the basis everything can be mapped back to square costs, the games ratios are roughly fair for cities generating goods, supplies, and pop from the regular buildings. If you have more efficient pop and supply generators, the “fair“ ratio will shift.

 

[Gargon667]

I don´t understand a word of what you just said.

Who said you HAVE to cross-tier trade? Most people never do and they all do just fine.

I personally like cross-tier trading. Since the ratios in the trader were adjusted, they are rather good, so just use the star system for cross-tiers, just like for same-tier trades. No matter if you trade up or down.

 

[FieryArien]

The only chapter I felt that I needed cross tier trading was in the 15th chapter (Elvenar). And even that was only for sentient goods, as they are harder to stockpile due to decay. The amounts required for activating technologies were huge and often more technologies asked for the same tier goods.

However I must agree with Gargon667: Who said you HAVE to cross-tier trade? You can keep in-tier trading forever.

 

[rock stream]

Since the ratios in the trader were adjusted, they are rather good, so just use the star system for cross-tiers, just like for same-tier trades. No matter if you trade up or down.

When was the trader adjusted? Is GEMS still correct?
"As stated earlier, the game considers the following trades to be fair:
Within same tier – 1:1
Down 1 tier (crafted/T2 for basic/T1, or magical/T3 for crafted/T2) – 1:4
Down 2 tiers (magical/T3 for basic/T1) – 1:16"

Is the information in this spreadsheet still valid?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...xyugTFZYT0y9dYjTaFHCdIJ0M/edit#gid=1901106538

 

[Far Reach]

When was the trader adjusted? Is GEMS still correct?

GEMS isn't correct. The trading rate was changed a long time ago and the ratio is now 1:1.5 and 1:2.25 in place of 1:4 and 1:16. You should be able to check this easily for yourself by putting a cross-trade into the trader.

Incidentally the costs for catering/negotiating were at one point the same for all three tiers of goods. They were also changed and are consistent with the current trading rates.

I agree with the others that there is no need to cross-trade anyway. It is generally possible to rebalance manufactories instead, for example by building more T1 in place of T3.

 

[rock stream]

GEMS isn't correct. The trading rate was changed a long time ago and the ratio is now 1:1.5 and 1:2.25 in place of 1:4 and 1:16.

So GEMS is wrong and wiki doesn't talk about it. Where do you go to find information about the game? Is gems wrong about other stuff too? Maybe I should start a thread "Items that GEMS is wrong on"

 

[Gargon667]

When was the trader adjusted? Is GEMS still correct?

GEMS is out of date on a LOT of things! Just put up 1000 of something and see how much you get for it

I agree with the others that there is no need to cross-trade anyway. It is generally possible to rebalance manufactories instead, for example by building more T1 in place of T3.

Indeed one can However it is arguable even easier to put up cross-tier trades

I personally like to put up the T1 i make in the millions during FAs, and to save on teleports I keep T1s even between FAs. Since a lot of people in my neighborhood seem to overproduce T3 everybody is helped That is why cross-tier trading is such a great supplement to same-tier trading. Also I like the idea of trading all goods for each other, not just for 2 goods... simply because, why not?
Anyway 99% of all trades will most likely always be same-tier trades, so I doubt anyone will ever be forced into it.

 

[Gargon667]

So GEMS is wrong and wiki doesn't talk about it. Where do you go to find information about the game? Is gems wrong about other stuff too? Maybe I should start a thread "Items that GEMS is wrong on"

It´s still got some good info on there, but if in doubt, check a different page.
Mainly what´s good is stuff that hasn´t changed in a long time Which means everything that has changed has a good chance of being outdated. Like everything regarding tourneys for example.
I like all the tools they made back in the day, like tourney calculator (that one is still good, since it has nothing to do with fighting) and the AW tools. The events always are displayed nicely, but the quest lists and daily prizes may not be accurate, however, nobody needs quest lists anymore anyway nowadays...and the dailies, well I guess I have complained about those enough to last me a life-time, so whatever...

 

[m4rt1n]

So GEMS is wrong and wiki doesn't talk about it. Where do you go to find information about the game? Is gems wrong about other stuff too? Maybe I should start a thread "Items that GEMS is wrong on"

Use the info as @Gargon667 says above, starting a thread about a 3rd party site will most likely get locked anyway these days.

 

[rock stream]

To correct my earlier post on wiki

https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Trader

 

[Aisling1]

Here I go again...

First, yes, Gems is out of date. The ratio has changed, and the trades that the "trader" will accept have changed.. try 1 steel for 1k marble, for e.g.
It used to be 1:16 - it has dropped but it is still nowhere near the "real" value.. make a date with a fellow to swap goods and see where you get.

Cross tier trading.
Again, there is nothing wrong with it per se.. it's just that cross tier trading is all BACK cross tier trading.. that is, Tier III for II and I, and that seems to apply to sentient goods as well. It suggests that a fair trade, say gems for scrolls, that is two star by the trader is "fair".. and most players, looking at produce and input etc, would accept it as such.. - and it's not. I'd love to see cross tier trading the other way. The day it happens, I'll call it fair.

The math is beyond me, and maybe pop, squares, input to build manufactories at Tier III level, high produce is accounted for.. but it's "easier" than producing Tier I and Tier II...

And there is a point. Unless players are basically altruistic and charitable when trading, and give discounts to newbies, and play fair/ their own rules within FS on trades.. we push away many players because they cannot get and cannot see how to get those quantaties of goods they need for progress and upgrades and development - and they give up.

I am currently sitting on 10k plus of Tier I, II, and III - and what it can buy me, I cannot use it, nor give it away.. all my manufactories are producing sentient goods, some of which are in the same situation. I really feel for the guy who needs 100 steel, wish I could give it him, where is he? Not in my neighbourhood, and how to explain after a few weeks of 8:1 exchanges to the newb, when there is one, that he is bleeding me dry, that I too, have limits.. and no, he can't join my Fellowship yet..

Finally, I am here because I denied that Winyandor trades were weird a few months back. I thought you were seeing things - but - yes, I have experienced the same. The Winyandor trader is "off" - not related to tournaments, or temporary shortages. I cannot quite say there is a cabal, but previously decent players are placing 0 star trades, and asking an 8:1 or above for their goods. They do seem to dominate the trader pages. The good news - don't buy, any two star, or fair star trade is accepted fast, and if it's a good in short supply a 10% discount will secure it. Please, appeal to FS and friends neighbours first if desperate. Leave those 0 stars to languish and it will get better.

 

[Aisling1]

In terms of how to deal with Tier I, II and III...
Get flexible, be ready to sell and rebuild manufactories.. get a feel for your hood and trader but also, be prepared - as you change chapter and guest races, your needs change. Your FS makeup, and each of the players levels impact on you, and the hood also... if you cannot sell your boosted think about changing how you go about production...
I have never lost by selling low.. 10/15% discount which is a cheaper way of getting non boosted goods than any other, I still gain, just less, but I turn over more and faster. Or, I get what I need when I need it.

 

[Gargon667]

Cross tier trading.
Again, there is nothing wrong with it per se.. it's just that cross tier trading is all BACK cross tier trading.. that is, Tier III for II and I, and that seems to apply to sentient goods as well. It suggests that a fair trade, say gems for scrolls, that is two star by the trader is "fair".. and most players, looking at produce and input etc, would accept it as such.. - and it's not. I'd love to see cross tier trading the other way. The day it happens, I'll call it fair.

Are you serious??? You will think that cross-tier trading is fair in both directions, when you see it happen? That must be the silliest thing I have ever heard, but OK, here you go:

I think at currently I have 4 of those in my notifications, which means in the last 30hours or so I gave away a million T1 for T2 and T3. So now it´s fair?

btw, I don´t put these trades up that much, because I also accept all reverse cross tier trades, which are of course better for me since i don´t even have to offer 3 stars, instead I accept 3 stars Anyway point being is it happens in both directions, even if you don´t see it, because accepting a trade is the same as putting up the opposite.

The math is beyond me, and maybe pop, squares, input to build manufactories at Tier III level, high produce is accounted for.. but it's "easier" than producing Tier I and Tier II...

The math is what says it actually is fair, if you can´t do and never have done the math then your understanding of fairness is completely random. You base you idea on fairness on people´s behaviour? Well I can give you some examples how that´s going to work out if you like and I am pretty sure to upset a whole bunch of folks while having fun with it, but for the sake of staying on topic I will maybe shut my mouth right now ....

 

[SkyRider99]

The current game trading ratios are reasonably fair for most cross-tier trading. I avoid it whenever possible, but sometimes after an expensive tournament I need to rebalance my goods. Cross-tier becomes a useful option.

However, because of the relative costs (including time and city space) in producing goods, I almost always offer 3-star trades for cross-tier in order to recognise the efforts of my fellow traders. A 5% or 10% discount on a cross-tier 2-star trade seems to be appreciated by my neighbours.

That's just how I do it. Your mileage may be different

 

[m4rt1n]

A fair trade is a trade that gets accepted by another player, it is fair to them otherwise they would not take it, analysis of what is fair is only the individuals opinion.

Is it fair that a 1 bed apartment in central London cost over £1M, yet in other parts of the UK you can buy a 4 bed detached with an acre of land for 200k

 

[Pauly7]

A fair trade is a trade that gets accepted by another player, it is fair to them otherwise they would not take it, analysis of what is fair is only the individuals opinion.

Is it fair that a 1 bed apartment in central London cost over £1M, yet in other parts of the UK you can buy a 4 bed detached with an acre of land for 200k

Spot on.

 

[Pauly7]

Though even if a trade isn't good for someone that doesn't make it unfair... it's just not a good trade.

 

[SkyRider99]

A fair trade is a trade that gets accepted by another player, it is fair to them otherwise they would not take it, analysis of what is fair is only the individuals opinion.

Is it fair that a 1 bed apartment in central London cost over £1M, yet in other parts of the UK you can buy a 4 bed detached with an acre of land for 200k

If that definition works for you, that's fine. Like I said, your mileage may differ. The thread seems to be playing with semantics a bit. And it's largely irrelevant anyway. Just a discussion point for interest sake.

In answer to your question though, it is not fair that RL real estate prices are as they are. Speculators and rip-off merchants are a fact of RL. I look for something more civilised in the world of Elvenar though

avagooday

 

[Gargon667]

A fair trade is a trade that gets accepted by another player, it is fair to them otherwise they would not take it, analysis of what is fair is only the individuals opinion.

Well that would be true if people knew what they are doing. I am rather sure most people did NOT know that cross-tier trades were unfair before the change. They accepted trades based on the star rating, trusting them to be fair. That made it extremely easy to exploit people unfairly.

I would say those trades were very unfair trades, even though they did get accepted. However you can call people knowingly put up those trades ***** and people accepting them unknowingly fools. Doesn´t make the trades fair.

With the new system:
Someone putting up 0 star trades now not the same, because those trades are now fairly rated at 0 stars. People accepting them are either fools, rich or have a habit to click too fast But since the trade is marked clearly as zero star, it is your own fault for accepting it, while the one posting the trades is not misleading anyone anymore.