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You knew it was coming....

Jake65

Mentor
very soon I won't find a place to invest my KPs anymore.
I agree with you, AWs were always a good place to drop KP when research was full. Now it seems a bit pointless to push KP into AWs.
Never before have I had this many wonders sitting in upgrade purgatory.
A couple were ready to upgrade before the change but I ran out of orcs and sentient while racing to beat it :(

Waiting.jpg
 

Lelanya

Immortal
Hey Sokrates, nice to read you here. The staff at Elvenar wiki are working on loading, and translating the new changes. Unfortunately they are also the same people who are reading, sorting, copying, and forwarding our comments onwards to the company; answering tickets, deleting comments that violate terms of service and more! There are player generated Spreadsheets and Summaries of the changes if you need them.

Also, would you comment on the multiple Armories questions that I posed, above.
 

OldHag

Shaman
Is it really necessary for so many players to place 20 to 50 armories? Why is this, are the barracks too fast now? Most importantly why wasn't this mentioned in the feedback threads so it could be tweaked prior to present. This is creating a great deal of anger and frustration.
Firstly, no, the barracks are not too fast.
It's not necessary to have so many armouries, but it was/is player choice.
If you log in once per day, then 20 maxed armouries with maxed mil buildings takes between 26ish hrs through 31ish hrs to train all 5 slots, which means you can have troops training in your sleep or busy with real life, nowt wrong with that.
The more armouries you have, the more orcs and sentient goods you will collect, which can be very handy if you like to negotiate/convince some instances of fighting., whether spire or tourney.
Orcs were, along with mana or a combination of both, required to upgrade AW's.
Apart from that, if you play for ranking then at 74k ranking pts per maxed armoury, compared to 58.1k for a maxed tier3 manu or 53k per magic workshop, then why wouldn't you build as many armouries as your available culture allows?
There may be other reasons that I'm unaware of, not sure.

Edit - this is pre the changes, we're already seeing players reduce the number of armouries, I believe it takes up a lot of your culture. Maybe 50 was one too many.....lol :)
 
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Far Reach

Conjurer
I am a little worried about the big culture vs armory problem that many end game players seem to be experiencing, however. Is it really necessary for so many players to place 20 to 50 armories? Why is this, are the barracks too fast now? Most importantly why wasn't this mentioned in the feedback threads so it could be tweaked prior to present. This is creating a great deal of anger and frustration.

Ranking score depends on both used population and used culture. Prior to the recent change these were massively out of kilter with each other in that (for a city with the relevant AWs maxed) culture was virtually unlimited. The best strategy for getting a high score was just to place huge number of armories (being the most culture intensive building). No other building competed (even most maxed AWs). The change does actually balance the cost of providing population and culture pretty well. It is still possible to maintain quite a lot of armories for those players that want to, but the impact on ranking score is much smaller (because of the impact on the space that now needs to be taken up with supporting culture buildings).
 

m4rt1n

Adept
I run 8 Armories, before and after the change, was 18 hours for troops now 27 hours, my culture dropped but stayed in the + range.
 
I'm suddenly -114K. A big trap for me has apparently been those culture buildings that provide population. They give less culture than is now demanded. Maybe I can teleport a few and figure out how to upgrade my residences, after backfilling with high culture buildings. I'm wary of doing anything too drastic now, until the PTB have decided how to deceive us again. :confused:
 

Lelanya

Immortal
One might imagine that you have been receiving a few of these lately? :rolleyes:
Hahaha no, but I witnessed quite a few.
There is one and only post allowed for feedback. Everyone is upset about the upgrade costs, sure. On the thread we sorted out what Wonders improved dramatically and the dialog evolved organically, but periodically someone shows up in one of the 5 stages of grieving and ends up arguing with those who were trying to debate relative merits. Add to that mix, a global population, about 4 distinct time groups and yep, gotta say, the mods have been working hard!
 
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Killiak

Artisan
Also, would you comment on the multiple Armories questions that I posed, above.

I will comment as well; Armories are the most efficient for ranking points per square. That is why they got built so much, in the race to be in the Top X of players.
 

sail0r

Spellcaster
The results of the AW "improvements" to my game and the need for spell fragments, CC's and RR's:
Spell fragments: When I started this game 4-5 years ago I was stupid enough to think that I would be getting Moonstone Libraries for ever, so I sold the old ones when I got a newer one. Anyway, I have only one, so spell fragments are not overflowing. Since they are now needed in thousands for the AW's, I have stopped crafting anything but military buildings and pet food. So less chance to win 500 diamonds from the mystical object. I also predict that the Arcane Residue badge will be the most difficult badge in the FA's as only players with multiple Moonstone Libraries will be able to afford them. I have lots of buildings in my inventory and artifacts to disenchant for spell fragments but I think that very soon I will run out of those too... (If I sell ALL my artifacts and ALL the inventory buildings [all 50 pages of them] I will get 1 million spell fragments. That is just enough for 2 wonders from scratch to lvl 31. And what after that???) If you complete the spire to the top you get on average maybe 2000 spell fragments per week. Plus 525*7=3675 from the Moonstone Library for a total of 5675 per week. That's all the spell fragments I can get every week. So I need 87 weeks to complete 1 AW from scratch to lvl 31???
CC's: Since I have stopped crafting and thanks to Tinlug, I think they will not be much of a problem. Remains to be seen.
RR's: I am lucky to be in a FS that makes at least 15-16 chests per tournament. So that's about 10 RR's per week. At my FS we also get a gold in the spire every week and so get a Blueprint every week. Since I need 20 blueprints to upgrade my Magic Residences and Workshops with every new chapter and assuming that we will have 2 new chapters every year, this leaves 12 blueprints available per year to be converted to RR's, so another 120 RR's per year, so another 2.3 RR's per week.
The Oracle of Fortune is probably becoming a Must Have AW. So I will have to build it to lvl 31 to get another 7 RR's per week (need to spend 496K of spell fragments, 496 CC's and 140 RR's to get it to lvl 31). for a grand total of 19-20 RR's per week.

I am sorry but the way I see it, this situation is not viable. I am sure there will be great offers to buy all of the above with real money. But thanks. I will not. After 5 years of continuous play I will probably have to stop as this will no longer be a free game...
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
LONG POST

I spend a lot of time observing things. One of those things is how formerly decent (often originally PC) games have been altered since being moved to mobile.

In particular, I notice which games are persistently advertised, their no. of downloads/popularity, which companies buy/own them, the alterations that are made to them over the years, and what their legitimate (i.e. not AI-generated, as many now are) player reviews say.

The result is that I see very consistent patterns in the behaviour of mobile gaming companies, and very predictable strategies.

Elvenar is attempting to emulate what are generally known as 'base-building' games, combined with elements of so-called 'gacha' games. Short of direct PvP and gambling games, those are the two most profitable genres on mobile. Both are nominally F2P but very expensive if players actually want to get anywhere.

Base-building games rely on slowing progression so dramatically that paying for the [by design] central (and very few, sometimes only one) required Resource(s) ~ which are always awarded randomly in tiny amounts but only via cash purchase in useful amounts ~ becomes necessary in order not to spend literally years achieving only trivial progress.

These games have many other in-game Resources, freely awarded in often huge quantities, but only the intentionally limited central ones will actually matter. In Elvenar, these are now (to nobody's surprise, I'm sure) RRs, CCs, and Spell Fragments.

The artificial hard limits placed on these central Resources means that only high-paying players, or the few who stocked up and/or upgraded all the useful AWs BEFORE the game was so radically altered, will be, and will remain, at the top of the game's strongly promoted ranking tables of various kinds. No amount of strategy or grinding/dedication will be able to beat this system, because the core Resources are hard-limited by the software's design.

New players won't know that they are playing a completely different game from the Top 100 (or however many) older players. New players will try all ways to beat the system, and fail. And then they'll either pay a LOT to try to catch the older players/FSs, or will content themselves with making only trivial progress, or (and here's where reading reviews of base-building games comes in), they will write sad/embittered comments as to how "a few rich players spend 1,000s to own the game Servers/rankings...", while never realising that those 'rich' players actually got where they are by playing an entirely different game which now just LOOKS the same.

Inno/MTG is simply following the latest and most cynical move yet in mobile gaming... the deliberate creation of an envy-driven and permanently divided Haves vs Have-Nots in-game culture; the 'élite' few older players, and the rest who join later, and then strugge forever to catch the uncatchable old-timers who succeeded because they played a completely different game.

My City has suddenly become so much more powerful that it's almost laughable. Everything is greatly multiplied, from Standard Goods incoming (and I already had 90m surplus, and growing), to Units generated, to Combat performance, to Discovered Resources stocks (Mana, Seeds, etc.).

Perhaps I'm meant to be pleased (although I, like many, won't be upgrading AWs any longer at more than a glacial pace, nor Crafting without serious thought, either... and I'm also suspicious about some kind of 'rebalancing' being the next move, to be sure we don't start doingTOO well without coughing up some cash...).

BUT. I didn't EARN this huge overnight improvement to my City, and I can honestly say that I don't WANT to simply be handed near-OP status in return for zero effort on my part. I did nothing to deserve it. I enjoyed strategic play, and carefully trying to improve my City build. Why bother, now?

And more to the point, I VERY MUCH don't want to be one of those old-timers who are, as described above, effectively used by gaming companies to push newbies into spending, because those newbies will think that I did, too ~ then into despairing when the costs are shown to be ridiculously high.

I don't want to be the cause of envy, division, expense, and angst in others, thanks to blatant sleight-of-hand in the game's core design.

No wonder Inno don't want the Forums to remain; new players can read here, in one place, reasoned accounts of what ACTUALLY happened to the game's foundation, rather than just arguing trivial sub-issues on Discord and the other Anti-Social Meeja which Inno ~ for obvious reasons ~ prefers them to use.

I'm honestly not sure what to do, now.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers ~ Laurelin
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
Addition: Here's a US Forum post by a successful long-term player with a similar view to my own, above. The entire thread is well worth reading.


NB : I'm trying to post, specifically, Post no.152 in the thread by Player MichaelMichael... it seems not to be permalinking correctly? Not sure.
 
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Honeybubbles

Alchemist
LONG POST

I spend a lot of time observing things. One of those things is how formerly decent (often originally PC) games have been altered since being moved to mobile.

In particular, I notice which games are persistently advertised, their no. of downloads/popularity, which companies buy/own them, the alterations that are made to them over the years, and what their legitimate (i.e. not AI-generated, as many now are) player reviews say.

The result is that I see very consistent patterns in the behaviour of mobile gaming companies, and very predictable strategies.

Elvenar is attempting to emulate what are generally known as 'base-building' games, combined with elements of so-called 'gacha' games. Short of direct PvP and gambling games, those are the two most profitable genres on mobile. Both are nominally F2P but very expensive if players actually want to get anywhere.

Base-building games rely on slowing progression so dramatically that paying for the [by design] central (and very few, sometimes only one) required Resource(s) ~ which are always awarded randomly in tiny amounts but only via cash purchase in useful amounts ~ becomes necessary in order not to spend literally years achieving only trivial progress.

These games have many other in-game Resources, freely awarded in often huge quantities, but only the intentionally limited central ones will actually matter. In Elvenar, these are now (to nobody's surprise, I'm sure) RRs, CCs, and Spell Fragments.

The artificial hard limits placed on these central Resources means that only high-paying players, or the few who stocked up and/or upgraded all the useful AWs BEFORE the game was so radically altered, will be, and will remain, at the top of the game's strongly promoted ranking tables of various kinds. No amount of strategy or grinding/dedication will be able to beat this system, because the core Resources are hard-limited by the software's design.

New players won't know that they are playing a completely different game from the Top 100 (or however many) older players. New players will try all ways to beat the system, and fail. And then they'll either pay a LOT to try to catch the older players/FSs, or will content themselves with making only trivial progress, or (and here's where reading reviews of base-building games comes in), they will write sad/embittered comments as to how "a few rich players spend 1,000s to own the game Servers/rankings...", while never realising that those 'rich' players actually got where they are by playing an entirely different game which now just LOOKS the same.

Inno/MTG is simply following the latest and most cynical move yet in mobile gaming... the deliberate creation of an envy-driven and permanently divided Haves vs Have-Nots in-game culture; the 'élite' few older players, and the rest who join later, and then strugge forever to catch the uncatchable old-timers who succeeded because they played a completely different game.

My City has suddenly become so much more powerful that it's almost laughable. Everything is greatly multiplied, from Standard Goods incoming (and I already had 90m surplus, and growing), to Units generated, to Combat performance, to Discovered Resources stocks (Mana, Seeds, etc.).

Perhaps I'm meant to be pleased (although I, like many, won't be upgrading AWs any longer at more than a glacial pace, nor Crafting without serious thought, either... and I'm also suspicious about some kind of 'rebalancing' being the next move, to be sure we don't start doingTOO well without coughing up some cash...).

BUT. I didn't EARN this huge overnight improvement to my City, and I can honestly say that I don't WANT to simply be handed near-OP status in return for zero effort on my part. I did nothing to deserve it. I enjoyed strategic play, and carefully trying to improve my City build. Why bother, now?

And more to the point, I VERY MUCH don't want to be one of those old-timers who are, as described above, effectively used by gaming companies to push newbies into spending, because those newbies will think that I did, too ~ then into despairing when the costs are shown to be ridiculously high.

I don't want to be the cause of envy, division, expense, and angst in others, thanks to blatant sleight-of-hand in the game's core design.

No wonder Inno don't want the Forums to remain; new players can read here, in one place, reasoned accounts of what ACTUALLY happened to the game's foundation, rather than just arguing trivial sub-issues on Discord and the other Anti-Social Meeja which Inno ~ for obvious reasons ~ prefers them to use.

I'm honestly not sure what to do, now.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers ~ Laurelin
Long, but a really good read, thank you Laurelin.
..and concise actually, considering the number of interesting/relevant points raised. Kinda like my beloved Concise Oxford dictionary :)
 
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