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World Map Player Movement Changes

Quynn

Novice
So now they are doing forced moves even if you have ticked no move. You vill do as ve say. Move me and I am off after a couple of years play, it has become a chore anyway so probably the nudge I needed.
No matter what they say if even 1 person doesn't want it it obviously isn't the best....clueless as usual
 

OldHag

Scholar
I have a friend who's been in touch, because he's been moved out of our neighborhood in Arendyll. He's devastated, his city was spawned in this locale, 7 years ago, and for him, this is the last straw, he's done with this nonsense. He was separated from all his neighbors and I do have to point out this is needlessly cruel.
I'd be furious to find myself moved from my similar map brothers and sisters. You might want to take a page from Helya's book, just sayin', because this is clearly not working correctly even yet.

I think this may cause the loss of a lot of players........some people (lots in fact) only continue to play some games because of the friends they have made (in and out of fs') over a long playing time, not because of the game itself.

I feel for your friend, to lose your community after 7 years of playing, that's really not good.

For myself, I'm keen to be moved, it's as exciting as this game is going to get......lol
 

rock stream

Scholar
Move me and I am off after a couple of years play
I'm waiting to see what the next step is. Usually after a beating they offer some tea and pastry to help with the wounds.
I'm very curious to see how they handle the U$, where over 50% the the free cash flow comes from. They will at least hold off until their quarterly statement is completed.
 

Laurelin

Scholar
Well, here's my own experience, so far, of the Big Forced Move of November 2021. Over the past few days I've seen:
  • The removal and move to elsewhere of 20+ mid-to-large active Cities with which I used to Trade and/or exchange NH;
  • About half-a-dozen large-ish Cities moved in, of which two are posting Trades and/or returning NH, so definitely active (the rest have as yet done neither) - with all of those moved in being several Chapters lower than those removed, and;
  • Over a dozen small-to-tiny Cities moved in (or allowed to start close to my Map position?), of which ten have nothing but the standard buildings found in abandoned tutorial Cities, i.e. Main Hall, Builder's Hut, one Residence, and one Workshop. Of these, a couple are evidently already dead - with roads drawn everywhere for no reason, for example. One of these, which has had all removable buildings deleted and the rest stacked in one corner, is even called 'Meant to be Beta - remove'.
I now also have, so far, one incoming Chapter I City which is of the dreaded type (for browser players, who can't even visit them for Coins) which has a perma-upgrading Main Hall. Of all the types of City which should be removed without any question, surely it would be easy to run an algorithm to detect those with Main Halls which have been in a permanent upgrading state (due to the failure of the player even to login) for, say, a month or more?

In addition, the formerly dead large Cities around me and the also-dead smaller (as low as Chapter I or II) Cities which have evidently spent Diamonds (the usual sign of this being the presence of one or more early-Chapter Diamond Culture buildings and/or Chapter I or II Magic Houses/Workshops) are ALL still present, again including a couple with City names such as 'I'm leaving' and 'Inactive' (with those names being unchanged for many months).

The remaining spaces freed up by moving out my former Trading partners which have not yet been taken by the above-listed types of City are currently Gold Mines, with an increasingly large swathe of same appearing to the immediate North of me as the Cities formerly there are also moved out.

My present position resulted from the first Server move which ever included me, and was formerly very fortunate, with around 75% of the surrounding Cities being active, and most being large enough to represent realistic Trading/NH partners. If the current results of what is meant to be a much better, more systematic, and more effective move do not change over the next few days - and I certainly hope they will change, since the 'big move' is scheduled for tomorrow - then my own situation will be greatly disadvantaged in terms of my ability to Trade and exchange Neighbourly Help.

Let's see what tomorrow, and the next few days, will bring...
 

Laurelin

Scholar
Firstly, @Herodite : Thank you for your courteous reply, and for trying to obtain an answer to my question. I'm aware that the Powers That Be at Inno may or may not answer any question you put to them, and also that you personally are no more responsible for what they do (or say - or don't!) than any of us players are, but still, I do appreciate your taking the time to ask. It's very kind of you.
It seems they have heard us complain about it the previous time and are currently using the German server to test the new FS Perks feature.
Good point - although this is also a further illustration that not all Live Servers are treated equally when it comes to game updates/changes. I'm not arguing that only the EN Server playerbase should be exempted from 'forced Beta testing'; I find it highly irregular that ANY Live Server is treated any differently from any other with respect to the fundamental rules and features of the game they are playing - and in some cases even paying to play.

I will say again that I have never before seen any gaming company - especially not those which operate multiplayer games with competitive elements, like Elvenar - testing different versions of its game on its Live Servers, and I find it to be frankly presumptuous and disrespectful behaviour by InnoGames. If 'secondary Beta tests' are required, I would expect there to be a secondary Beta Server, where the (volunteer) players have agreed in advance to test new updates/changes. And if there are not enough voluntary (i.e. free) Beta testers to provide a realistic test base, as I've seen suggested on this Forum in the past, then I'd say that InnoGames needs either to recruit more free Beta testers from their general playerbase or (shocking suggestion!) pay for professional in-house Beta testing. Many other gaming companies do.

* * * * * * * *

Aaaand here comes another essay (well, an extension of the previous one!)... pretty much off-topic, too, although I can't resist answering your point(s) about Fellowships, @Hekata, because they are points which actually relate to the very nature of Elvenar (and most other Free-to-Play games), and as such they're something on which I, being a gamer of some four decades, have much to say! Once again, those who can't abide my monologues, please feel free to skip on past the rambling below - and Moderators, if you decide that this is too off-topic to be here, please don't just delete it (it took me a long time to write!) - I'll happily move it elsewhere, or feel free to do that yourselves, of course, if you prefer. Thanks in advance!

So, to answer @Hekata's points (and I usually agree with you, too, Hekata - but it would be a dull world if everyone shared identical opinions, and indeed a very, VERY dull game Forum, were it not for debate between players about the game's features, benefits, and/or drawbacks!)...

[...] I consider boosted goods and trading the very bases of this game and don't think it should be altered.
True, and it would certainly be a major upheaval in terms of how the game functions. But consider this: if you had played the game, from the start, with the ability to produce any Goods you pleased, either just for fun, or to enable your City to weather fluctuations in the Trade market (whether caused by Inno, e.g. via the introduction of Goods-producing buildings like the Moonstone Set, by temporary [or even permanent] imbalances in the numbers of players producing X or Y Goods at varying rates, or just by the inherent ups and downs which occur within any marketplace, in games or in reality), would you consider it an improvement if Inno were to alter the game so that you could [effectively] produce only one-third of those Goods? Would it improve your ability to strategically build your City - which is meant to be the central point of interest and focus of the Game (even though the Spire and other competitive activities, as well as Events [a primary revenue source in any F2P game] are increasingly being positioned as the real central focus...), or would it remove a great deal of your ability to choose what you want to do, as opposed to what Inno wants you to do...?

It's what makes players want to join a FS in the first place. If everyone could produce anything we'd have a lot more people playing solo simply because they have never felt the need to join a FS and see all it's benefits.
I am very big on freedom of choice, in gaming or anywhere else, and so I don't consider this to be inherently a bad thing - although I'm sure that Inno does, since another primary revenue driver in F2P games is peer pressure (and the related psychological trick known as FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out), and there is no better way to produce peer pressure than to force encourage players into groups - whether that be the players' preference or not. Without peer pressure (and FOMO), the game's competitive elements (the No.1 F2P revenue-earner - worth far more than a few 'whales' buying premium content), and probably also the lucrative Events which we now see with increasing frequency, would both attract much less player attention and engagement (which from Inno's perspective = chance of players spending money, of course - whether directly on the Events/competitions themselves, or indirectly in building a City which will be successful in those at least theoretically 'optional' in-game elements).

And so one of the reasons why Inno would never consider removing the Boosted Goods system - and a far more influential reason than the short-term cost of re-coding the game - is the fact that, as you say, the existence of the Boosts system is a strong driver into Fellowships of players who might otherwise choose to play solo... bearing in mind that Fellowships are provided by Inno not only as a fun addition to the game, or just because they want players to enjoy each other's company, but primarily because, in Social Viral games (which Elvenar is - essentially, it's Farmville with buildings instead of crop fields), in-game groups, and the competition, cohesion, and sense of mutual reliance (and, yes, friendship too) which those groups generate are the foundation of the company's revenue. Sad but true, in the cynical and extremely competitive, high-pressure world of F2P gaming.

Same goes for trading world wide. New players need to join a FS, that's what will make them learn about the game, grow faster, make the game more interesting and hopefully make them stay.
Again... players NEED to join a FS - as opposed to WANTING to (and you're right that they do need to - I just don't find it a very palatable state of affairs, compared with other multi-player games where joining a group is either just a matter of [genuine] choice - those games work equally well for players in or out of groups, not least because temporary groups can be formed for any dedicated 'group content' - or at most an option with a few, minor advantages. The very fact that, in Elvenar, joining an in-game group is more or less enforced by the very structure of the game is just one more reason why I would argue that it is so far removed from a 'strategic' game as to be entirely in another genre - as mentioned, the Social Viral genre, which is known far more for its pressure on players to conform to a pre-set revenue-generating in-game structure than for dedication to building excellent games which people want to play - and financially support - simply because they're excellent games. And from this root spring most, if not all, of Elvenar's woes, and ALL of its peer-pressure-based tactics, none of which is very conducive to its players feeling - or being - free to genuinely play as they please.

The more a game railroads me into doing what it wants, rather than what I want (within the rules and inherent nature of the game, of course) the less I like it, but I will spend many hours of my time voluntarily - not out of necessity, or due to any pressure from the game's designers - researching, discussing with others, and becoming good at any game(s) which I like well enough to do so. In fact, ANY genuinely good game will have no need to bribe, force, or even encourage its players to do likewise... they will do so out of choice, and only because they enjoy the game.

I think most long term players would say that the main reason they've been playing the game for so long is because of FS.
You're absolutely right. But is it really beneficial - for the players (I'm not here to cheerlead for Inno - they employ enough market analysts, PR agents, Social Meeja promoters, and other assorted persons not traditionally found working for a gaming company to do that for themselves!) - to feel that the game itself is not reason enough to stay, and that had those players not made friendships via their Fellowships, they would prefer to leave...? Is it good for the game itself, either, for Inno to rely, for its retention of players, not upon creating excellent new content (and/or improving the content which already exists), but rather upon the players' natural sense of loyalty to their peers? More relevant, though, and as I've already said, is the fact that Inno doesn't just give players the choice of forming groups, for whatever reasons they see fit, but rather manipulates the game itself (and thus the players) in such a way that forming groups becomes effectively a necessity. Freedom of choice is not something which much features for players of this or most other F2P games, in any other than a tiny or, in many cases, illusory manner, and I personally don't find that a good thing.
 

Laurelin

Scholar
... and one final point, which won't fit into the above spiel (if anyone has ever wondered: the above is what the 10,000-character post limit looks like!)...
It's been a long time since I had a new city and I don't know how it looks now but back then the game did't really urge you to join a FS and I think that's a mistake, if they want to keep more players they should "advertise" (a lot) joining a FS from the very beginning.
If the Live City start-up process is the same as it is on Beta (and I doubt whether it differs much?), then I would say that no - the game still doesn't adequately advertise or explain what a Fellowship is/does and/or why one should join a Fellowship, whether early in the game or later on.

NB : I've read - both on Beta and on Live Forums - that some players starting new Cities have a Chapter I or II 'Fellowships' Research to complete before they can even join or found a Fellowship, but such a Research doesn't appear in my own Beta City Research Tree, so I don't know if this is still the case. (But if this is still happening, then here we go again with treating players inconsistently - whether on Beta or on Live - without letting them know that such is the case. I do know of one other software company which operates this so-called 'A/B Testing' without its users' permission and/or without even mentioning it's happening - but seeing as that company is Google, which does this with particular regard to changes made to its Chrome browser [the most efficient piece of spyware in existence], I'd say that's hardly any kind of endorsement of such behaviour...!).
 
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I would have no problem moving as I am surrounded by cities that haven't grown for months now and don't give neighbourly help all that often.

But, and this might be a really stupid question, where is this box that you can tick / untick if you want to / don't want to move? I've been through my settings and I can't find it??
 

OldHag

Scholar
I would have no problem moving as I am surrounded by cities that haven't grown for months now and don't give neighbourly help all that often.

But, and this might be a really stupid question, where is this box that you can tick / untick if you want to / don't want to move? I've been through my settings and I can't find it??
It was removed a few days back, possibly friday, so you don't have a choice in whether you are moved or not. I think it was in the Account tab and I'm assuming it will be replaced once the forced moves are done, but that's after the fact.
 
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CrazyWizard

Shaman
I really hope it stay's away.

It gives a sense of false security as we see each time after each large movement.
People assume that if you are in a "good neighbourhood" ticking that box makes sure you are always in that good neighbourhood.

But the opposith is true, instead of security, that option gives you more insecurity. because sooner or later at some point your neighbourhood will be relocated and you'll be the one stuck behind. it doesn't matter if they move 1 or 1000 neighbourhoods at some point it's your neighbourhoods turn.

therefore not giving that option and therefore not the false security is a much better option.
That option is very similar to russion roulette, you'll will shoout yourself in the head at some point, you just do not know when it will happen.
 

Hekata

Summoner
if you had played the game, from the start, with the ability to produce any Goods you pleased, either just for fun, or to enable your City to weather fluctuations in the Trade market (whether caused by Inno, e.g. via the introduction of Goods-producing buildings like the Moonstone Set, by temporary [or even permanent] imbalances in the numbers of players producing X or Y Goods at varying rates
If from the start we had no boosted goods then it would have been a completely different game :) There would be 0 need for trading therefore no particular need of neighbours either and the interest in joining a FS would also be much lower. You talk about market fluctuations but that just happens because of the current system, if everyone could produce everything they would be self-sufficient and self-regulate their needs: you need more planks you just make more planks. Not to mention that the teleport spell makes it easy to bring in and out which ever factories you need at that moment. It would almost completely remove the entire "economy" aspect of the game and for me that's still the most important part of it.

I am very big on freedom of choice, in gaming or anywhere else
We have freedom of choice; you don't have to be in FS if you don't want to. The difference is that this way more people try a FS and a lot like it and stay and some don't like it and leave to play solo. With the no boosted goods system you suggest, fewer people would try out FS and a lot of them wouldn't know they are missing on something they would have enjoyed. I was one of those. Only wanted to play solo (I'm not a particularly social person both in RF and online) and I did for a while, then a neighbour contacted my about trades and I ended up in his FS and never regretted it.

another primary revenue driver in F2P games is peer pressure
Yes, the FS aspect can create a bit of pressure but I think a lot of it comes from people who have joined a FS that's not right for them. If you like to (or have time to) log in only 2-3 times a week, you are likely to feel pressure in a FS that gets 15 chests, gold in the spire and top 10 in the FA.
I know there are cases where players were very active but then (for whatever reasons) became somewhat less active and started to feel the pressure form their FS but also don't want to leave it because they like the people there. That's where @Alcaro 's suggestion of having the option to chose (heart) some friends who are neither in our NH nor in our FS, would be a great addition. It would allow players in that situation to join a FS that suits them better at that moment while still staying in touch with their old friends.

Again... players NEED to join a FS - as opposed to WANTING to
Players can't know if they want something unless they tried it first, right? When I was kid I hated pizza! But only until I was "pressured" to try it. And ofc I loved it after that. On the other had I also tried eating asparagus once and never again! :)

compared with other multi-player games where joining a group is either just a matter of [genuine] choice
I can't compare Elvenar to other online games since this is the only one of this kind I've ever played (I don't like the PvP aspect of most other similar games) but I accept that this is a game meant, for the most part, to be played with a FS. You can also play it solo but you will miss out on a few things.

its players feeling - or being - free to genuinely play as they please.
I do agree that Elvenar is not (anymore) a game that lets you play as you want but not so much because of the FS aspect, more because of some of the changes they've made along the way; like the tournaments/Spire difficulty system that forces you to choose between good tournament/spire results and other aspects of the game including progression though chapters. I know that every game has to have rules that you have to accept if you want to play it but it's not ok to change them halfway though the game. But I'm digressing...

But is it really beneficial ..... to feel that the game itself is not reason enough to stay, and that had those players not made friendships via their Fellowships, they would prefer to leave...?
When I say that many players stay mainly for the FS I didn't mean that's the only reason. They must still enjoy the game at least to a certain level. It would be really nuts to play something you hate just to chat with a few players. What I meant is that FS activities and interactions become the most enjoyable part but not the only part one likes.

Edit: just some typos/spelling
 
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Alcaro

Sorcerer
I would have no problem moving as I am surrounded by cities that haven't grown for months now and don't give neighbourly help all that often.

But, and this might be a really stupid question, where is this box that you can tick / untick if you want to / don't want to move? I've been through my settings and I can't find it??
It's not stupid at all :D It was removed until further notice. My personal hope is that will never be restored again.
 

Giraffi

Enchanter
I would have no problem moving as I am surrounded by cities that haven't grown for months now and don't give neighbourly help all that often.

But, and this might be a really stupid question, where is this box that you can tick / untick if you want to / don't want to move? I've been through my settings and I can't find it??
If you play on app, you don’t have it. You have to ask Support to change the default status.
Browzer users had it under one of the Settings tabs, but it is removed or invisible at the moment.
 

rock stream

Scholar
My personal hope is that will never be restored again.
Why? and why can't I choose if I like my neighbours to stay put. I would just of soon have 20 players that trade in 50,000 units than 200 that trade in hundreds.
Why can't I scout directly to an active trader in my non boosted goods (would be a waste of time if you are always moving). It was direct scouting and established trading relationships that allow me to move our fellowship's surplus goods for goods our fellowship needed.
More and more the game is funnelling you to play a certain way.
 

schadenfreude

Conjurer
I also did get the feeling that things work a bit better on the US server and forum, for instance they would get a heads up about FA from the mods earlier than we did but @anonglitch did inform us about 72 hour in advance last time so I hope things will improve here too.
They did get a really long delayed roll out of the new relic/KP distribution of the latest tourney changes (like months), but it is not true that they get any advanced warning from mods about FAs. Helya has said she cannot announce FAs until they go out on the in-game horn announcement. Most of it is speculation and word of mouth from what is happening in Beta, but not from any official channels. I feel like it's the opposite experience. We get new features in the EN market before US market so I know more of what's going on from playing on EN servers. When they consolidated tourney format to only 1 encounter instead of 4 per province, we also got those changes way before US servers. Those changes drastically made 10th chest easier to obtain for most fellowships so more blueprints for longer here.

p.s. US servers ARE getting mandatory moves too. Options in settings to opt out have been removed as well.
 

Pauly7

Magus
to feel that the game itself is not reason enough to stay, and that had those players not made friendships via their Fellowships, they would prefer to leave...? Is it good for the game itself, either, for Inno to rely, for its retention of players, not upon creating excellent new content (and/or improving the content which already exists), but rather upon the players' natural sense of loyalty to their peers?
It doesn't matter how good a game is, people wouldn't continue to play it if it weren't for the fellowships. Well, in saying that I am judging everyone by my own standards. However, for me, I started playing Elvenar in April 2017. It's fun to build cities, sure, but I absolutely guarantee that I wouldn't still have been playing by January 2018 if it weren't for the fellowships.

Further to that, I stopped making any kind of progression through the game from midway through chapter 15, because doing so would have been counter-intuitive. That was over two years ago and if, by any chance, I had still been playing the game then, I would have quit playing it at that point, having come to the realisation that progress would hurt me.

So it's only the fellowships and people that make all of this work for me. This game is not good enough to take 4 and a half years of my time on its own merits.
 

Julian

Sorcerer
So, we're getting a hard clean up. (Why have the button not to move, if you're going to ignore it?)

Anyway, the result of this is that we will go from having a diffuse boundary (with inactive cities scattered through the world) to a hard boundary. Anyone now on the edge (and somebody has to be there) will find that half their world will be inactive cities. That's hardly fair.

There are various options to get round this, such as having three-dimensional worlds, differently-shaped discovered areas, retention of discovered cities when you move.
 

Silly Bubbles

Sorcerer
Further to that, I stopped making any kind of progression through the game from midway through chapter 15, because doing so would have been counter-intuitive. That was over two years ago and if, by any chance, I had still been playing the game then, I would have quit playing it at that point, having come to the realisation that progress would hurt me.

I did stop two years ago because progress was impossible as I just kept waiting for new chapters and in the mean time I was building things that I wouldn't have if I was not bored and waiting for new chapters. I had a 6 months break and at the end decided to build a brand new city and just focus on the research and build only things that I considered fail safe, that is, the ones that would keep it's benefits whatever Inno does.
 

Hekata

Summoner
@Herodite how do we know when the forced moving of cities is done? I'm still in my old neighbourhood but with a of of inactive players left and even more gold mines to the south east of my city. I keep hoping to ether get a lot of new neighbours or be moved but nothing is happening. Am I going to be stuck close to the edge of the map?
 

DeletedUser501

Enchanter
@Herodite how do we know when the forced moving of cities is done? I'm still in my old neighbourhood but with a of of inactive players left and even more gold mines to the south east of my city. I keep hoping to ether get a lot of new neighbours or be moved but nothing is happening. Am I going to be stuck close to the edge of the map?
I´m exactly waiting the same, at what hour is supposed to be the big shift, I´m here sticked to the computer for that exact moment.
 
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