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Version 1.108

Silmaril

Community Manager
Elvenar Team
Dear Humans and Elves,

Please use this thread to discuss the update to version 1.108

We're looking forward to your feedback!

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team
 

Pauly7

Magus
Unless I'm confused between worlds... the main change in tomorrow's update (i.e. the crafting changes) - didn't they already take effect?

It's good to see the evo building bases disappearing. Quite surprised to see Phoenix conversion artefacts making a comeback though. although I know that there were some people left disappointed that they didn't get one.
 

Hekata

Artisan
I've had the new crafting system with the 5 categories for maybe 10 days now (not sure when it started) and so far I like it a lot. There is always at least one useful recipe to craft and we can't get any more of those "4 relics + one culture building" selections like we used to. Nice improvement :)
 

Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
the main change in tomorrow's update (i.e. the crafting changes) - didn't they already take effect?
They did for some people, but not for everyone.

we can't get any more of those "4 relics + one culture building" selections like we used to. Nice improvement
You also won't get 3 useful buildings in one pick, so there is that. Also, if you don't collect your building in just right time, then the next cycle will be wasted as uncollected building will completely block the slot for the next cycle, and you have zero chance of it appearing in other slots. Previously, you only lowered your chances by 20% in this setup, now it is down to exactly 0%.

So it's not all great.
 

Pauly7

Magus
You also won't get 3 useful buildings in one pick, so there is that. Also, if you don't collect your building in just right time, then the next cycle will be wasted as uncollected building will completely block the slot for the next cycle, and you have zero chance of it appearing in other slots. Previously, you only lowered your chances by 20% in this setup, now it is down to exactly 0%.
Yeah, I thought about these things with my pessimistic attitude. There will be no more golden rounds when 2 pet foods and 2 military buildings show up at once. Plus I also worried about the fact that if I leave a good item cooking overnight, like a petfood, then there's no chance to get another one in the morning.

I expect that overall we will be better off, though.
 

Hekata

Artisan
You also won't get 3 useful buildings in one pick
I never got 3 useful buildings in one pick. I did however get 3 or more relics many, many times so this is much better for me. And buildings are not the only thing I'm crafting, I also like time boosters, pet food, big AWKP instant...
 

Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
I expect that overall we will be better off, though.
We will see. A lot of people assume equal probabilities in each bucket, e.g. if there are 10 buildings total and you like 3 of them, then you will be getting something useful in 30% of all rounds on average. There are absolutely no guarantees of that - this was not the case before, so no reason to assume it will be the case now. For all I know, they can attach 90% chance to Frozen Flame Orange, and everything else split into the other 10%.
 

Errandil

Conjurer
I'll definitely miss the good MA rolls with several military buildings, or a bunch of a big time boosters/AWKP instants. It was always fun to see it, even though it required using some time boosters to craft everything.
And as much as I'd like to believe that Inno will improve stuff, from most of my previous experience I assume that we will be lucky if on average things will stay the same as they were before. But most likely 3 unit boosters a week and an average of 18.5 KP a day is considered too generous and we will be getting less.
 

RainbowElvira

Sorcerer
It's great that some evolving buildings were removed. Hope the other 5 are removed soon too. No need to maintain this trap for new players.
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
I found the app update yesterday already in store and I must say that I just LOVE the new culture overview. It is more informative than before, easier to understand and the visualization is straightforward. Really good job. Please pass my thanks back to the team. Well, not just for the culture overview, but also for the other improvements and (bug)fixes in this app update. I'm trying to get used to the short numbers and "m" in the goods overview. This is not a complaint, it's indeed better now. ;-)
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
From the Release Notes:
As part of the Crafting changes mentioned above, some Recipes that were previously removed have been made available again, chances of certain Recipes appearing have been adjusted, and some Recipes have been removed. Among the removed Recipes are the Stage 1 versions of all Evolving Buildings except for the four Phoenixes (Aureate, Fire, Storm, and Coldfire), as well as the recently released Festive May Tree. More changes to the available Recipes may happen in future updates.
@Silmaril : Please would you kindly clarify the section of the Release Notes which I have highlighted above - specifically, could you please confirm:
(a) whether or not, as of v.1.108, the Stage 1 versions/bases of the three Evolving Bears buildings will still appear in the Crafting options - and, if not;
(b) why has one of the two essential* combat-related buildings (Fire Phoenix) been left as a Crafting Option, whereas the other (Brown Bear) has not?

* NB : my grounds for regarding Fire Phoenixes/Brown Bears as being 'essential' are probably obvious, but for absolute clarity: I think it is fair to say that it is not only my personal view, but that of the large majority of commentators here, that no existing or particularly new player [who spends an 'average' amount of money on the game] will ever be able to compete with others who own at least one fully levelled Brown Bear and/or at least one fully levelled Fire Phoenix, and especially not with players who own one or more of both buildings.

Oh, we all love it when a Frozen Flame Orange comes up! ;)
Don't we indeed, @Pauly7 ... although I was even more thrilled today to see a Frozen Flame Green (for the first time ever!) in this morning's first Crafting Rotation... /s. Even though it's been an option for a while, it was still hardly an auspicious surprise to see it occupying my single Building slot.

@Silmaril : Please would you kindly clarify why a building as statistically poor as the Frozen Flame Green has not been removed from the Crafting Rotation - especially with its undeserved classification of 'Legendary' quality - as well as why this building is so expensive to Craft (600 Spell Fragments and 4 Combining Catalysts)? For comparison, the Lava Codex (also a 4x4 pure Culture building) has, at least until now, appeared in Crafting with a cost of only 300 SF and 2 CC to Craft, while providing 100 more Culture points than the Frozen Flame Green (570 vs 470 - i.e. 25 more Culture per square - in my current Chapter, Dwarves) although it is rated as only a 'Basic' quality building, despite its evidently superior stats.

Once again @Silmaril : Following on from the above, would you also please clarify why the far superior of these two buildings is classified as 'Basic', while an evidently inferior but directly comparable building (Frozen Flame Green) is not only more expensive to Craft, but is also classified as 'Legendary'? Although experienced players will know that the apparently less-appealing of these two buildings (Lava Codex) is actually superior, these mis-classifications will probably mislead at least some new or even existing players into Crafting inferior and expensive buildings, which seems an odd decision to make at a time when the Crafting Recipes have been altered ostensibly to make them "more relevant" (as per the Release Notes).

Of course, I recognise that the most likely, if least desirable, player-perspective result (if any) of my making this comment will be either the removal of the Lava Codex from Crafting or, alternatively, its re-classification as also being 'Legendary' or 'Epic', with a commensurate increase in its Crafting cost, but I am always more inclined towards the direct approach than dropping obscure 'hints' - and I would also hope that the game developers would not be motivated to respond in such a disappointing way (rather than taking the more player-friendly approach of, for example, removing the Frozen Flame Green [and similar] from Crafting - or at least re-classifying it, too, as 'Basic' - and reducing its Crafting Cost - to match the Lava Codex).

While on this subject, there are, in fact, several other such (in my view) mis-classified buildings available both in the standard Crafting Menu and via the 'Mystical Object' (some statistically excellent - and even a few best-in-slot - buildings mis-classified as 'Basic'), but it is my view that this is probably an accidental bug/consequence arising from the re-purposing of former Event-only buildings originally classified as 'Legendary/Epic' before Crafting was introduced. Even so, the value of these excellent buildings may not be at all apparent to players (again, especially new players) who do not consider each building's stats, but rather primarily judge them according to their 'corner-flash' colour-coded 'rarity' classifications - which is a common habit of players of mobile games. This entire issue is an inconsistency which I think would benefit from review.

And finally, @Silmaril one last time : Would you please, if you can, advise us as to why we are not informed as to which Recipes may appear in Crafting, or provided with even a hint as to the likelihood of each one appearing? The most common answer I read in response to any question about the game mechanics is that stating such information might give some kind of advantage to gaming industry competitors, but many games are far more forthcoming (even regarding 'hidden' mechanics such as how their combat systems work) with no apparent ill-effects occurring - and in this particular case, I can see no reason why informing players which buildings they may or may not expect to be able to Craft (even via broad general hints, if not specific data) could possibly lead to another gaming company misusing this information in order to achieve a competitive advantage.

This knowledge would, however, be of enourmous value to players of what is described and marketed as a strategic game, rather than a game of random chance, which at present best describes our only way to predict (well, guess...) which items - some of them very strategically significant indeed; some quite the reverse - may or may not appear in the Crafting Menu. For most players (who are not heading towards end-game), SFs and CCs are difficult-to-obtain and valuable commodities which we need to spend wisely, and this naturally cannot be done if we are not even aware of which Crafting items may or may not be available at all at any given time, let alone which are more or less likely actually to appear in the Crafting Rotation, and with what level of frequency. Vague statements such as "... some Recipes that were previously removed have been made available again, chances of certain Recipes appearing have been adjusted, and some Recipes have been removed" and/or "More changes to the available Recipes may happen in future updates" are hardly very informative or useful, even if accurate.

Thank you in advance for any responses you can provide to these several questions, @Silmaril - and also a PS: I realise that the Release Notes currently state that all Stage 1 Evolving Buildings except the Phoenixes and May Tree have been removed, and I also know that the term 'all' should (in its literal meaning) include the Bears, but Release Notes are not always set in stone (or accurately phrased) - and even if they are in this case both final and accurate, I would still like to make the point that removing the Brown Bear [in particular] from the game while leaving the Fire Phoenix [in particular] still available seems neither rational nor equitable (unless, of course, Brown Bears [or equivalent] will be made available again in future).

* * * * * * * *

This message also @MinMax Gamer for information, and with apologies for its verbosity... conciseness was never my strong point (QED!) ^_^
 

Julian

Sorcerer
There is no point in having the bases of any of the evolving buildings. Without the tokens to evolve them, they are useless.

If you are right about the frozen flames cf lava codex, that does seem odd.
 

Pauly7

Magus
Once again @Silmaril : Following on from the above, would you also please clarify why the far superior of these two buildings is classified as 'Basic', while an evidently inferior but directly comparable building (Frozen Flame Green) is not only more expensive to Craft, but is also classified as 'Legendary'?
I saw a Frozen Flame Green building yesterday and I had the same thought. It is an awful pointless culture building, but somehow it costs 6 CCs to craft. I would put some money on the fact that in the history of Elvenar crafting not one single person has ever done it... unless someone has a fascination to collect all the frozen flames.

I think that there are several items in crafting which are seriously overvalued, starting with the Portal Profit spells.
 

Errandil

Conjurer
If I'm not mistaken, initially players asked to add the bases because after the phoenix event we had a crafting challenge, rewarding an artifact and then got an FA two months later with phoenix artifacts as a reward, so by this point there were enough players who missed the initial phoenix event and couldn't use the artifacts in any way. It still eludes me why after this Inno started adding bases for all the evolving buildings when the pattern became that we are getting artifacts in the FA a week after the event and then there's no way to get them ever after. But I wish they would leave at least the polar bear now, because it's actually usable at lvl1 and 10% reduction in the tournament cooldown can make a huge difference before you get to the Timewarp.

@Silmaril : Please would you kindly clarify why a building as statistically poor as the Frozen Flame Green has not been removed from the Crafting Rotation - especially with its undeserved classification of 'Legendary' quality - as well as why this building is so expensive to Craft (600 Spell Fragments and 4 Combining Catalysts)?
My guess would be that for some reason they decided to not have weighted probabilities in each pool and instead just enabled the old recipes to lower the frequency of the military buildings. At least I fail to come up with any other reasonable explanation for it. And if I'm correct, we probably shouldn't poke into it too much, or they'll fix something so we will like the results even less.
 

Timneh

Artisan
I am happy to see the base buildings get removed, now i can clear them out of my inventory without places in crafting getting taken up by them.
 

Laurelin

Sorcerer
There is no point in having the bases of any of the evolving buildings. Without the tokens to evolve them, they are useless.

With respect to all of the Evolving Buildings except the Fire Phoenix and the Brown Bear, I fully agree with you. Without the Artifacts needed to evolve them (and, in my view, with many far more useful buildings which can/could occupy what is now our only building Crafting slot), almost all of the past Evolving Buildings seem to me at best a waste of a Crafting slot, and at worst an invitation to squander valuable SFs and CCs, especially for new players who are very unlikely to realise just how low is the return on such a significant investment of Resources and City space, as things stand.

For me at least, though, the hope is that the Brown Bear [or equivalent; see below] and its Artifacts will return in a future Event (the sooner the better would be nice!), although I would support a more equitable process being devised than the Coldfire Artifact exchange system, which resulted in most of us who wanted (? needed...) to build our first and only Fire Phoenix ending up with a partly levelled-up building which, although it's better than nothing, is still not good enough to compete with a fully levelled version from the previous year's Phoenix Event.

That said, even the chance to own a partly levelled-up Brown Bear would very much help those of us without a Brown Bear at all to compete with those players who already have one (or more) fully levelled-up. Again, and ideally, I would argue also for a fairer system being provided with respect to levelling up such a building than this year's 2:1 ratio Coldfire Phoenix/Standard Phoenix Artifact exchange system; this meant that players who were trying to level up a Standard (usually Fire) Phoenix needed to win a very large number of Coldfire Artifacts, and also relied [as I feel that few things should, in a strategy-based game] on the completely random and time-limited appearance of the desired Recipes in the Crafting Rotation - so some players just 'struck lucky' while others did not, which is hardly a 'strategic' way of doing things.

Incidentally, by 'compete', I mean this not only in its classic and direct sense, such as in the Tournament Rankings, but also in the sense of simply providing all players' Cities with the same underlying strategic choices/costs/opportunities as others. By this I refer to the fact that combat difficulty and the costs of its 'peaceable' alternatives (Negotiating, Diplomacy, etc.) have both increased to account for the ownership by many players of Brown Bear(s)/Fire Phoenix(es), and this has had many far-reaching 'knock-on' effects over and above the simple difficulty of directly competing in combat-based elements of the game; in particular, this has affected the ability of non-owners of Phoenixes/Bears to cope with the Squad Sizes/Goods costs of the Spire - which is an increasingly central [even becoming required] part of the game for anyone, whether Rankings-focused or not.

Of course, a building comparable to the Brown Bear (in terms of its Troops-generating power, since its other stats are far less important overall) would be another solution, especially if it were configured so that it would not operate in conjunction with or boost the effects of existing Brown Bears, for the sake of avoiding creating any further imbalance between the Phoenix/Bear 'haves' and 'have nots' - just as the Coldfire Phoenix did not duplicate or boost the effect of the Fire Phoenix, but rather had its own and different benefits. In order also to cater to those who already own a Brown Bear, the exact same could be done this year, with a further set of Bears (or whatever...) being provided; I am sure the devs can/could come up with many new benefits for such a set of buildings, but one solution to the problem would be to make at least one of these new buildings mimic the Brown Bear but be incompatible with it - since offering another exact duplicate of the Brown Bear, without altering it/them so that they will not operate together, as they currently do, would of course only exacerbate the existing discrepancy between Brown Bear owners and non-owners.

If you are right about the frozen flames cf lava codex, that does seem odd.

I have a current-Chapter Lava Codex in my Inventory, and the current-Chapter Frozen Flame Green appeared in my MA this morning, so the comparison is valid as of today. In fact, the stats (including the 'rarity' level) of all of the Crafting and Mystery Object reward buildings have been available for months (or more) on several third-party fan sites and, I assume, in the game's Wiki (? I haven't actually checked, so this is a guess...), so I'm sure that the devs know and understand all of this - including the conclusions players may draw from the situation - much better than I do! :)
 
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Deleted User - 1759805

Guest
And if I'm correct, we probably shouldn't poke into it too much, or they'll fix something so we will like the results even less.
A situation we have seen too many times, unfortunately.

Frozen Flames were actually removed some time ago for being useless (as in no one crafted them), and since that time Lava Codex cost has been adjusted down. But they brought back those janky buildings recently in their original form, without as much as mentioning it (this happened way before 1.108). And now they make even less sense than before.
 

Pauly7

Magus
Frozen Flames were actually removed some time ago for being useless (as in no one crafted them), and since that time Lava Codex cost has been adjusted down. But they brought back those janky buildings recently in their original form, without as much as mentioning it (this happened way before 1.108). And now they make even less sense than before.
This all must mess with your data collecting @MinMax Gamer!
 
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