• Good day, Stranger! — Are you new to our forums?

    Have I seen you here before? To participate in or to create forum discussions, you will need your own forum account. Register your account here!

Unit Production Bonus vs Training Speed

Pauly7

Mentor
I've just spent a while trying to wrap my head around this question - Is the unit production bonus from Simia Sapiens the exact same thing as training speed bonus (like from Needles) added to a training size bonus (like from Bulwark)?

If so I think I may elevate it to the most powerful AW, for me, as technically it has three very good powers.
 

Hekata

Illusionist
That's what it does, yes. It's like upgrading your needles 1 level and your Shrine / Bulwark 1 level. However I suspect that upgrading both those AWs by 1 level would give more troops than 1 level of Simia (but also cost more kps), someone else would have to do the maths though.
 

Julian

Scholar
As it happens I was wondering about this 5 minutes before reading this. Cheers. I placed it the other day, but mainly for the reduction in sentient goods decay.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
someone else would have to do the maths though.
I thought this would be easier to work out than it actually turned out to be... Such as tends to be the way with me and maths.

My problem is that I cannot actually figure out how training size increases from the Bulwark and Shrine are actually calculated. No matter which way around I calculate it I can't make it match up with the percentage increases shown on Wiki. Someone else may know better than me on this.

So I can sort of half calculate, based on what my own city is like right now.

One standard upgrade of Simia Sapiens will raise my troops production (based on LR) by 0.265 squads per day
Upgrading both Needles and Bulwark once will raise my troops production by 1.17 squads per day

It seems that this will make the combined power of Needles and Bulwark much greater. The downside of the Needles/Bulwark upgrade is that it will reduce the total time my Barracks would keep training for by 10 minutes.

This maths is really shaky in my head, so anyone else feel free to do a better job, please.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
Of course, needless to say, you'd have to also factor in what stage the three Wonders are at. If someone has a level 31 Needles and Bulwark and a level 1 Simia Sapiens, then you will get a lot more bang for your buck upgrading Sapiens.
 

Stephen1

Alchemist
My problem is that I cannot actually figure out how training size increases from the Bulwark and Shrine are actually calculated.
the training size increase from shrine of shrewdy shrooms is: number of armory levels X AW power
the training size increase from bulwark is: current squad size X AW power
 

RainbowElvira

Sorcerer
The Simia increases the troop production for all 3 buildings, not only barracks. So even harder to compare, it depends on too many factors. In any case, the Simia is a powerful wonder, but expensive to upgrade.
 

JollyElf

Bard
I've just spent a while trying to wrap my head around this question - Is the unit production bonus from Simia Sapiens the exact same thing as training speed bonus (like from Needles) added to a training size bonus (like from Bulwark)?

If so I think I may elevate it to the most powerful AW, for me, as technically it has three very good powers.
needles (or FA/Vic springs) increases your training speed. Simia is a collection bonus.

If you use brown bear regularly, it pays more to upgrade training speed boost AWs ( simia boost is only addictive with bear, not multiplicative, as it’s a collection bonus)
 

JollyElf

Bard
Of course, needless to say, you'd have to also factor in what stage the three Wonders are at. If someone has a level 31 Needles and Bulwark and a level 1 Simia Sapiens, then you will get a lot more bang for your buck upgrading Sapiens.
You can calculate total squad increase per week normalised to (say) 500kp. This metric can give you direction to which upgrade can give you more squads for the immediate future, for the kp spent.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
If you use brown bear regularly, it pays more to upgrade training speed boost AWs ( simia boost is only addictive with bear, not multiplicative, as it’s a collection bonus)
I don't really understand the distinction. Simia gives extra troops at no time cost. Needles gives extra troops, but deducts time from the total training cycle. Aside from the issue of KPs spent to get it to a certain point, and training speed bonuses being limited to one of the three troop producing buildings (as @RainbowElvira says), I don't see how it effects Brown Bear usage to have Simia Sapiens upgraded vs a combination of Needles and Bulwark.
 

MinMax Gamer

Sorcerer
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that extra troops due to faster production speed will still cost you supplies. So you get more troops for more supplies. Simia's bonus is automatic, so extra troops from that are really free (outside of AW upgrades themselves).
 

Pauly7

Mentor
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that extra troops due to faster production speed will still cost you supplies. So you get more troops for more supplies. Simia's bonus is automatic, so extra troops from that are really free (outside of AW upgrades themselves).
Ah, good point. I think I'm going to be leaving my Needles, Bulwark and Shrine be for a while until Sapiens catches up a bit.
 

Paladestar

Soothsayer
Since they're different effects, the benefits multiply.
  • A level 13 Simia on its own is a 20% increase troop production per time unit.
  • A level 13 Needles, FA or VS on its own is a 50% increase.
  • A level 13 Simia and a level 13 Needles is an 80% increase.
  • A level 30 Simia on its own is a 40% increase.
  • A level 30 Needles, FA or VS on its own is a 100% increase.
I never had a problem with having enough supplies to keep my training queue full 24/7, but each to their own:

If supplies are a problem for you, then Simia would be the smart choice.

In pure level terms a Needles, FA or VS will provide a bigger boost to troop production compared to a Simia of the same level and they all individually need less KP per level than a Simia does too. You'll of course need to level all three of the Needles, FA and VS if you want the same training speed bonus for all troop types. However, you'll eventually find that as you start to get all unit types to 3* upgrade level, you're gonna be training from the Merc. Camp the most often, the TG way less often and the Barracks will sit there collecting dust.

If you want the biggest troop production benefit per KP spent on AWs and supplies won't be an issue, level Simia and FA at the same time (By the time Simia is unlocked you're ready for Merc. Camp to be your primary troop training building).

Also consider that if you have any Brown bears, and will be collecting a lot of troops when they're fed, the training speed AWs become even more beneficial than the Simia.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
Supplies becomes a key commodity because I solely negotiate in the Spire. I don't have a problem, per se, but any extra is welcomed.

Interesting points though, and stuff to think about. My Needles is at level 30 so it's still quite an easy decision to work on Simia a bit, which is a lot lower. I don't use the Merc Camp at all, but that's a discussion for another day, haha.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
Even though the AWs mentioned have a similar effect, it is nearly impossible to directly compare them. Too many influencing factors.

If you are serious about tourney play from day 1 of your elvenar career, you will have Needles at lvl 30 (and the Shrooms as high as necessary) long before you reach the Simia. So the question is more FA or Simia, since yes, you definitely want to make the switchover from barracks to Merc camp somewhere around there as well. But really you want to upgrade them both as often as you can :) Then again you have the FA available rather early on as well and can get a headstart on that one long before the simia comes into play.
The training grounds + VicSprings is in my eyes a waste of space and KP, much better put to use in maxing the others. Maybe once you are past 500 AW levels you could do that for the sake of completeness or something...

One AW you have completely forgotten is the MM: The hitpoints you get make your troops survive, which is also a way of getting free/more troops (and as the Simia does, gives you the troops for free, not having to pay supplies for them again). But also this AW should be somewhere above 20 early on.

Well and then there are all the "free troops" AWs (and event buildings), but the AWs I would not consider (unless you get them for a different reason, like Shrooms) The troops are not actually free: They cost space (for the building) and KP (for upgrading instead of more important AWs)

Ah now that we have started: Damage increase is also a way of making your troops survive better, meaning more free troops... but I think I better cut off here...
 

Pauly7

Mentor
One AW you have completely forgotten is the MM: The hitpoints you get make your troops survive, which is also a way of getting free/more troops (and as the Simia does, gives you the troops for free, not having to pay supplies for them again). But also this AW should be somewhere above 20 early on.
I haven't forgotten the MM (or Sanctuary), but that just wasn't the thrust of this thread. I wasn't necessarily trying to get into what the best measures to take are in order to maximise tournament fighting. I was just looking to make the comparison between Simia Sapiens and the Needles/Shrine combo, i.e. is Simia's power the exact same thing as a combination of the other two. Some people have explained that no, it isn't quite the same.
Well and then there are all the "free troops" AWs (and event buildings), but the AWs I would not consider (unless you get them for a different reason, like Shrooms) The troops are not actually free: They cost space (for the building) and KP (for upgrading instead of more important AWs)
Free troops from AWs is a bit something of nothing. It's better to get them than not, of course, but they are never going to make any impact when you're boosting 400 extra squads a week out of the barracks, with the bears fed.
 

AstralSoul

Illusionist
I am glad to be heading the right way, starting S&D and level 31 Needles already, it is truly worth it. Next MM, next FA :) And eventually when I get there, the Simia.