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Trades

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aisling1, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Aisling1

    Aisling1 Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    I'm getting right fed up of logging in, looking at the trader and finding 44 pages.. and nothing to trade.

    I can select my FS and deal with those.. but I'm still left with 40 odd pages of rubbish.
    I can select my boosted and my sentient.. same story.
    I am inundated with ridiculous back cross tier trades, or 1:4 same tier trades on sentient goods..

    Any one playing for more than for a few months knows just exactly what kind of offer 100 Tier III for 1600 Tier I is, regardless of stars.
    They also know how to add and subtract and see the "star" offer for exactly what it is.

    If Inno can make sentient goods and manna decay.. how about putting a 24 hr, 10% decay rate on ALL trades and putting the trader back where it belongs. When we started this game (me, personally, Aug 2015) we were told there were two ways to play.. fight or trade.. fighting, which I've learnt, now has the upper hand.. The changes to wholesaler and the making of tournaments a FellowShip only affair cut off our contact with our neighbours.

    Time maybe to restore some of the non FellowShip interactive aspects and re balance trading as part of the game???

    Meanwhile, I am starting a one player campaign against back cross tier trading (except by special arrangement for one off circumstances) and want to know if anyone else is interested in joining the boycott.. ?????
     
  2. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Funny how things go. There's currently a player on the beta forums who just can't grasp that 16:1 is unfair, and she also resurrected a 3 year old thread on US forums where the discussion is going again.
    Here's a very telling example of why 16:1 is crap if you're interested. Meanwhile, I'll just hop right onboard your boycott (where I've been for years):p

    This city is making 1,550 Elixir
    https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/1293128b7ef74f329d492d38f46b2e16/
    550 squares used

    1,550 x 16 = 24,800

    This city is making 24,864 planks
    https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/828d21a8474f419ca0d8b7171fb7d89d/
    2440 squares used
     
  3. Timneh

    Timneh Necromancer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    I never have and never will take cross tier trades(i think i may have doe it once by accident) or trades that ask for more then they offer.
    I have just started Elementals and have found some of the trades for sentient goods to be totally crazy i.e 29160 gum offered and 116K platinum asked for. The good thing about that is that when i put up trades for equal amounts they get taken quite quickly.
    Class me as onboard your boycott too.
     
    Wowwie likes this.
  4. RainbowElvira

    RainbowElvira Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Cross tier trades seem to be a never ending story. There have been countless suggestions on how to tweak the trader to hide them away from our view - to no avail :( Thank you @Aisling1 for trying a different approach.

    However, I'm afraid that a boycott may not lead to the desired result, if only players subscribe who never took those trades anyway.

    My suggestion: Everybody thinking that there is an issue with cross tier trading should address this topic in their fellowship. Maybe we can spread the word past the boundaries of this forum...
     
  5. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    You'll find that many players who hate the cross-tier system/ratio have accidentally donated 160K planks for 10k dust or something similar when clearing the trader. It hurts newbies too since players like me who used to clear out the entire trader can't be bothered anymore and just use our FS.
     
  6. foolfighter

    foolfighter Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2016
    If you are in a well balanced FS, constructed by an AM who knows what they are doing in recruitment, then cross tier trading shouldn't be necessary. However, a brief look around most peoples neighbourhood shows many horribly unbalanced FS and I suppose some of their members have little choice but to cross-tier trade.
     
  7. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    The trades available in Arendyll for Sentient goods are ridiculous, 60 pages+ often and not one above 1*. Why do players who have obviously spent a year or so at least on the game think it so right to put up such ridiculous unfair trades.
    Many are stupid, 25000 Platinum wanting 100000 Tree gum for example is a regular occurrence and there are pages of them that decrease by the decay amount daily.
    I did start by putting 3* trades up for sentient goods but now all my trades are 1:1 = 2* and most go in the day. I could name 2 players who are there constantly with the ridiculous but that could be a rule break.

    I do cross tier trades on occasion, and take cross tier trades on occasion, but always well within the 3* threshold.

    Everyone in this discussion needs to see there are more variables than just the space required and supplies needed in the difference in Manufactories of T1, T2 and T3. What about the huge differences in building costs and extra pop needed also?
     
    EdwardTrunk likes this.
  8. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Completely factored into my calculations as you can see by the links in post #2 above.
     
    m4rt1n likes this.
  9. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Enchanter

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Yes, there are numerous variables when it comes down to calculating “value” of goods. None of those calculations matter as we are all in different stages of the game and need different goods to balance our production.

    All it comes down to is practicality and making the trader to work so people can find the trades that they want without having to go through pages of trades that sit there for days. One way to go around it is to get statistics on the most commonly traded types of trades. I hope that most of us agree it’s 1:1 same tier trades. Then it’s trades that offer bigger amount of goods than demand and the rest follows.

    This is the current sorting order and we all know what problems it causes and the listing of the trades doesn’t seem to make any sense:
    1. Availability - available if we have the goods in our inventory
    2. Stars
    3. Amount offered – biggest first
    4. Time – newest first
    I think this order would work much better while it shouldn't be difficult to do:
    1. Availability – available if we have the goods in our inventory
    2. Stars – as per suggestion (https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/improved-sorting-of-trades.9124/)
    3. Type of goods – to use the same order as in the main hall
    4. Amount offered – biggest first
    5. Time – newest first
    Of course, there are numerous other options.
     
    m4rt1n likes this.
  10. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    I see, but that adds to why players place cross tier down trades for example wanting more T1 using T3 or T2 as T1 takes so much producing and is needed more in my experience.

    I'll add that no one is forcing anyone to take any particular trade so really dont have any issues at all with the situation.

    I can buy 60k T1 a day with the wholesaler and 5kp also due to a big excess from helping every neighbour and fellow daily, so do not mind at all the current system. :)

    To add: The filter on the other hand is a different thing and really needs some work as discussed in several current suggestion threads.
     
  11. Aisling1

    Aisling1 Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    In answer to foolfighter.. In particular, but not meaning any disrespect or to single you out.

    I am thinking beyond fellowship and to my map/ neighbourhood. This game is meant to be interactive, and the more FS/ enclosed we become, the more rigid. I player with the world, not 25 special players.
    It is impossible to balance boosted goods/ area on map within a fellowship no matter how wonderful the Archmage. Time and chapters move on, players develop and needs change.

    I am not Anti cross Tier trading.. I am asking for recognition that BACK cross tier trading is maybe necessary in early chapters, but carried on, is detrimental to development. I am asking people to do the math, and if they need to BACK cross tier trade, they recognise what they are asking for, and discount appropriately. I am asking people to see the Trader and the effect tournaments have on demand, but also the demand caused by the levels of the cities on the trader.. and the FS of course.

    I do think that 6 days for poor trades is excessive. Why not introduce a 10% decay rate on all trades???.. that way, decent trades will be taken and the others will be reduced accordingly.

    The day I see cross Tier trades on a regular basis crossing only one Tier, offering discount if back cross Tier trading, and trades offering Tier I for Tier III.. I'll shut up and retire.

    I'm still on a boycott of BACK cross tier trades.. but I'm happily still trading and it hasn't hurt me.





    Boycott is the best I can do. I don't know how else to hammer home the point and I am very sure that I am right about this. People hold onto goods, because they want them traded like for like and do not see how, after a certain stage, that sitting on goods is daft.
    The lack of Tier I at low level chases out our newbies, people drop out of the game because they cannot get the kind of goods that later stage chapters would give away if we could. We over value goods.. we don't with supplies or coin. But goods can be exchanged between players where coin and supplies can't. It is PURE STUPID to not exchange the exchangable. Help me here with the logic, the rest of you who have actually copped on.

    Once again, a boycott of BACK cross Tier Trades, and hold your breath for a bit..
    Followed by those of us who can afford it, undercutting the back cross tier traders by offering 1500:100 for Tier III.. or better than the shark traders out there - so that there's an alternative.
    What is it? We don't need that kind of Tier III..?? I am in Amuni, and I don't need Tier III in those quantities. I could lose two Tier III and two Tier II manufactories at my level and regain the population and the space, if only trade started distinguishing between "star" and "fair".. how often do I have to say it.. ???

    Teach players to distinguish genuine shortage from tournament shortage, and what "fair" actually is.
    Again, the day I see offers of Tier I for Tier III at 16:1, I'll shut up.

    Mod Edit: fixed your quotes for you- please use edit if necessary to add extra comments to a post
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2019
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  12. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Enchanter

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    It's all been said before numerous times. Repeating the same thing over and over again will not help, it just might upset some people and I'm not sure whether that's in your favour. Still, good luck :)
     
  13. Aisling1

    Aisling1 Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016

    ???? Said before numerous times???? Well, not by me. And if it has been repeated, then why is it being repeated???
    Upset "some people".. like who???.. the Numenorians? The Illuminati??? or the people who play this game? - .. the whole point is to upset not just some people but a lot of people.. in fact, as many people as possible!!! Get them thinking and reacting.

    Who are you? The Fun Police??? I don't post here for "my favour" ... and you know what you can do with your good luck..

    But.. and please, forgive me. If you are on my trader, I'll buy all the Tier I you have to offer at 1:16 with not only my boosted but any other Tier III I can get my hands on. :p
     
  14. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Enchanter

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. I even made a practical suggestion to ease the pain of scrolling through cross trades that I really hope that will get done.
     
  15. Aisling1

    Aisling1 Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    Okay, once again and with Feeling.. At the risk of upsetting some people.. why not apply the decay aspect to all trades? If you can put a 24 hour on wholesaler, mana and divine seeds.. and sentient goods, why not put a 24 hr decay on all trades? That way, unreasonable posts would last longest and decay, while those of us who trade normally would not be affected. It would go some way, maybe even a long way towards sorting this, if 16:1 posts had to re post every 24 hrs in order to maintain their preferred exchange rate.
     
  16. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Illusionist

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    The first thing I will say is that, as some people will know, I have long argued the absurdity of the goods value ratios that Inno decides to label on the game with its trading star system. This was then also reflected in the amount of non-boosted goods some event buildings were offering, but they eventually got the message that this needed to change.

    However - There is no such thing as an "unfair" trade. That term always confused me. People will accept what the feel is a good offer for them (accidental clicking aside).

    So the problem is down to, it seems, the trader being cluttered with trades someone would rather not see. To that end I would agree that it would be a very good idea to have a lot more options to filter trades so that the desired ones can be seen.

    In my fellowship I do not outlaw cross tier trading for the reasons above. I cross tier trade regularly, however the most I ever ask for is a 1:2 ratio (trading tier 3 to 2) or 1:4 ratio (trading tier 3 for 1)... and sometimes better. I also always offer a bonus trading within the same tier (i.e. you will always see me trading 8500 marble asking for 8000 planks, for example). My trades are never still there two hours later and I would be always conscious of cluttering up the trader if I thought that they ever did linger.

    So I won't boycott. What I would rather do is get the game developers to recognise that 1:16 is a ridiculous ratio. If everyone knew that 1:2 (across 1 tier) or 1:4 (across 2 tiers) was a minimum that is acceptable to most people then it would probably make the majority of them adjust their trading habits.

    What I will say, though, is that if you are constantly seeing 40 plus pages of people trading at 1:16 ratio, then there must be people in your neighbourhood or fellowship who are taking them otherwise they would stop. Supply and demand.
     
    m4rt1n likes this.
  17. CleverAngel777

    CleverAngel777 Enchanter

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    That would be great if that worked. People leave the trades there till they get removed by the system and that's 7 days I think. Also one person can make over 7 pages of trades then they forget about them as they're not the ones that have to scroll through them.

    I understand that people need to make cross trades and if they help others out and make them good value, there's no problem. But if the trades sit there all the time, it's really frustrating. I have a number of small neighbours that visit me and I want to support them. I will not scroll through 40 pages to find their trades though. All I can do is just to do my FS trades and then pick each of my boosted and see whether any of my neighbours want it and even that is a lot of clicking. Anything more than that is just a pain.

    I'd love the star rating to be completely removed (to avoid confusion what's fair and what's not) and have the trades sorted as I suggested before so the most traded types of trades are at the top and not all over the place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  18. Pauly7

    Pauly7 Illusionist

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    I rarely ever scroll through all the trades in the trader window. I usually just filter my three boosted one at a time and see if anyone wants them. If not (and usually there's nothing) then I put up all my trades. I start with same tier trades then I put up some 1:2 and 1:4 cross tier trades in order to then balance my goods as I would like, if necessary. As I say they all disappear almost instantly, but I get the feeling that some people are waiting for my trades to appear.
     
    Dakua likes this.
  19. yo momma love me

    yo momma love me Scholar

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    takes me only 1 minute to scroll through every trade, maybe 2 if i accept a lot of trades and they bounce around on me.
    like Rilian said, they are sorted in a way that we can look through them quickly if we know what to look for. i still usually look at every trade to see if any teammates are asking for help though.
    this is including all of the tier 4 and 5 trades, by the way.
     
  20. Aisling1

    Aisling1 Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    I'm actually with Pauly7 on this.. I am not against back cross tier trading per se or even the low/ no star equal tier trades.. Not even against scrolling through 40 pages to find one good trade..
    But it's the rule not the exception and it is forcing all players towards fighting/ military and away from catering. It is no longer possible to progress by catering only.

    When all players start back cross tier trading, forcing the market into back cross tier trading.. what is the point in keeping up a Tier I or II out put??? After nearly 4 years playing, ennui sets in.. but the little traders, the newbies, the starters are forced out of the market, and neighbourhoods stagnate with trade being more and more focussed on FS's. When I started, visiting neighbours was at least as important, if not more so - than the FS.. good relationships with non FS but neighbouring cities was important.

    Inno have tweaked everything else. Please, can you now have a look at the trader and tweak that? Like I said, a 24 decay on Cross tier or non star trades would go a long way. It seems to me that 7 days is arbitrary and only helps the bigger producer/ player.

    And again.. all I can do in my little corner of the world is boycott back cross tier trades, or less than 1:1 same tier trades and will continue to do so.
     

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