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Tournament; Tie chest prizes to amount of points made per player

DeletedUser3671

Guest
Hi

I'm sure we're not the only fellowship with that problem. Some people make a good deal of points in the tournament and some makes only a little. It's not fair to the players who makes the most. In our fellowship there's 6-7 players always making around 1200-1500 points. Then there's some in the middle and the last third bunch that makes the least. Around 400-500 points.

There's nothing actually we can do than to kick the players that do not do much, but most fellowships will agree and know that it's not easy to get players. I know there's different ways of playing this game. But for the fairness of the tournament i would suggest some changes to how the prizes are given.

The chest should be tied to how many points the individual player makes. Which means that the players making the most in a tournament gets the most chests prizes - and the players with the lowest amount of points, gets the fewest chests prizes.

It will also add to your, INNO, pushing us to play tournaments be course if players want to get prizes they need to make the amount of points it takes, and not like many do, just making 60 points and then get 7 chest prizes. It's absolutely not fair to the rest of the players and especially those who always make the most.

It will be a very fair change to the players which play tournament and it will add an incentive to do it better be course the players then will get more prizes :)

All the best
Elivar
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
This sounds to me like your fellowship has diverse player base who don’t necessarily share all your goals. Finding 24 players with similar game goals and interests is tough. Extremely tough. I don’t think people should be forced to participate by the game mechanics you described above. There are hard-tournament fellowships, there are fellowships who just don’t care at all, there are (majority of) fellowships somewhere between that. In my opinion the level of participation should be taken care of in the fellowship rules, not incorporated into the game.

Here follow my two personal views on the tournament contributions:

1) Somewhat advanced tournament player: In my main city I joined a relaxed fellowship and it’s usually me who gets the highest score in the tournament. Particularly during the last 4 weeks we got 39251 points out of which 9162 were mine (the sum includes one big push for relics of one of our players, who achieved 4206 points in the iron tournament). Thanks elvenstats.com for all the data. I don’t feel I deserve more than others, we are a team! Actually I encourage our members to at least clear one tournament province to gain the common rewards. It helps their development, it doesn’t cost the others anything and who knows, they might find out they want to get more. ;)

2) Very underdeveloped player: In my baby city I’m just in the second chapter and I’m very happy to gain all the team rewards we get, even though my contribution wouldn’t be enough even for one chest. If we discourage small players from joining tournament (by making them feel ashamed or even by denying them some of the rewards other get), they learn how to play without tournaments and will have less incentive to bother with tournaments later. It’s easier to motivate them and form the habit early on when the tournaments have just few provinces. :p
 

DeletedUser5976

Guest
There is an individual reward in tourneys already. The more tourney provinces you do, the more relics, KP, shards and spells you will gain. If people don't think this is incentive enough to participate, then a different way of sharing the chest prizes won't make much of a difference to their attitude. If fairness is indeed important in your FS you could consider introducing minimum score that members need to make. That indeed does make for different problems, but that's the way it goes. It's always choices.
 
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DeletedUser3671

Guest
You forget one very important thing FieryArien. It's a lot cheaper to do tournament at lower level. So to gain the same amount of points is an almost equal job for both low and high level players. We have players in Dwarven that makes just as many points as those in Halflings and Elementals.

And if some don't like the fairness or think they like to let only one part of the team do the heavy work, then just add an option for the Archmage to chose either all get the same prizes or according to effort. Every one can be happy again ;-)
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
In my particular lower level case you are correct - the tournaments indeed are very cheap. However that’s because I skipped 2 out of 6 squad size upgrades. It has very serious tradeoff in world provinces I have to balance. I highly doubt the generic lower level player would find the tournaments “cheap”; we have many places to spend our game resources to keep developing our tiny cities. ;)

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with LadyHavva’s post. She managed to make clear point against the suggestion on one fifth of the space I needed above, lol.
 

DeletedUser3671

Guest
No one thinks tournament is cheap, but when you look at the differences to higher chapters, tournaments are cheaper for lower chapters. And it need to be so be course in lower chapters it's not possible to produce the same amount of goods or troops.

That's also why every level player has the same possibilities to make the same amount of points.

And that's also why it's fair to have the chest prizes tied to the single players points. And then yes, that can be an option for the Archmage if he/she thinks he/she wants to gift some prizes in the tournaments, so every player no matter how many points, 60 or 3000 gets all the prizes :)
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
No one thinks tournament is cheap, but when you look at the differences to higher chapters, tournaments are cheaper for lower chapters. And it need to be so be course in lower chapters it's not possible to produce the same amount of goods or troops.

That's also why every level player has the same possibilities to make the same amount of points

Ahh, now I see where our misunderstanding originates. No, “every level player” doesn’t have the same possibilities. My main city has 18 provinces available (approaching Orcs chapter); my baby city has 2 provinces available (just entered chapter 3, trying to scout and finish more provinces for this tournament).

As for the relative cost of tournaments for various player levels - let’s just agree to disagree.
 

DeletedUser3985

Guest
Quite a terrible idea, to be brutally honest. You said you'd like to make changes for fairness but I don't see anything fair about giving the Archmage the power to take my share of the tournament prize and gift it to someone else (and I say this as an Archmage).

Lower level players (who I consider anyone below Dwarves) don't have it that easy. They have a limited amount of provinces to compete in and only a small amount of goods due to smaller factories, less space, no access to a Mountain Halls wonder (let alone a decently levelled one) and only a small amount of relics. And that's only for catering. Fighting comes with even more problems such as lower quality troops and a lack of benefit from military-type wonders that higher level players will likely have.

The way I see it, you basically have two options:
1. Establish a rule that requires a minimum amount of points scored. Anyone who disagrees with the new rule can leave and anyone who doesn't meet expectations can be removed.
2. Accept the fact that your fellowship is casual when it comes to tournaments and don't expect too much

Calling for the change of the whole tournament reward system just because you find it too hard to get new members is lazy and an unnecessary waste of developer time, from my perspective.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
As an AM of a FS with a diverse membership from less than 5k points right up to the Amuni we've just remade ourselves into a tournament FS, however the requirements for those in dwarves+ is more than those in the lower chapters - as @Tree says above, lower members find it a lot harder to do the bigger numbers, not so many provinces open makes it worse plus the demand for everything at lower levels happens a lot faster so asking for big numbers at tournament time is the surest way to make your small people leave.

As in life some people are achievers and others content to just bumble along so you will either have to accept that people are all different, what one sees as majorly important another will think to be trivial; or to set a minimum amount for people to achieve.
 

DeletedUser3671

Guest
I don't want to change the tournament reward system, i want to add something to it, which makes it fair for those who make more points.

Please don't add something to this that i didn't write. I didn't say that the Archmage should have the power to take you prizes away, He/she already has that. You can be expelled from the FS, then you get nothing at all.

What i'm talking about, is to tie the prizes to the made points. I didn't say anything about how much it should be for each chest to be given as a prize. And that would be an automated calculated system, that no one can set other than INNO. The Archmage would just have the possibility to chose either to let everyone have the same prizes or it be depended on what a player adds to the tournament. The fairness is in the calculation, and to that you could say that the 4 lowest chapters always get all prizes. It only depends on how it is setup.

It would make it easier to maintain a FS be course you don't have to run around and search for hardcore tournament players. And just for the record, we are not a hardcore tournament FS. We only do the 10th chest once in a while. And we also have a lowest amount you have to get if you enter the tournament.

And i would agree to that we do not understand each other, i don't think we disagree on fariness :)
 

Deleted User - 106219

Guest
Those who make more points already get more rewards. To get more points you need to finish more rounds, and thus you get more rewards from those rounds. Tieing the chests to the individual player's points will make them no different from additional round rewards. It will aso discourage tournament participation. Here's an example:
Current: The FS is 100 points away from next chest. A player sees that and completes a few more tournament provinces, getting the points and thus giving everyone in the FS (including himself) extra rewards.
Your idea: Again the FS is 100 points away from next chest and a player sees that. However, the player also sees that getting 100 extra points will not get him an extra chest. In other words he will be doing the work, while other players will get the rewards (the benefits) from his hard work. What reason is there for that player to actually get the extra points, when he will get nothing for them?
 

DeletedUser5093

Guest
I think if anything this proposed method will achieve the opposite. If someone thinks they can only do a small amount in a tournament, and therefore only get themselves small rewards, they will possibly decide it's not worth the effort and resources at all, and therefore do nothing. This puts a heavier burden on those capable of doing a lot, and may put some rewards out of reach entirely.

If you want all your fellowship members to be making large contributions, or roughly even contributions, then that's fine, put it in your fellowship rules. But not all fellowships want to play like that. It's unfair to have such a play style hard coded into the game.

And just for the record, we are not a hardcore tournament FS. We only do the 10th chest once in a while.
That's still better than 99% of fellowships. That sounds pretty hardcore to me.
 

DeletedUser3451

Guest
i bet none of you have ever been in a situation where you kick yourself hard and make 2000 + points in a tournament along with some of your mates, but the best you achieve is 5th chest, just because for all 5-6 people doing it, there are 20 others, who either make 10-30 points or nothing at all. personally i respect those that do totally nothing - it's just not their thing and that's fine. but why would those that make 10-30, obviously just to get the chests, do get as much as me or anyone else that have contributed decently? sadly leechers exist, and kicking them is the only option, but then again, how can you be sure new players won't be the same? or that anyone else won't decide to go the easy way because they're already sick of being exploited?

I agree that personal gains for solving provinces should be enough, but at the moment it isn't really. not with the limit of 10 for broken shards that had to be changed long ago. not since the kp i get is about 1/3 of the kp instants from chest, and on top of that it's far more expensive for me to get it from tournaments instead of buying it right away with boosted goods. currently for the resourses of solving one medium hard province which would reward 4kp i can buy 10. so the relics are the only normal reward i get from solving the provinces. and you honestly think this is incentive enough?

for me personally if things remain as they are, i will simply stop doing tournaments. just as i do not do adventures. should the system be changed - no, i don't think so, but the amounts of those rewards should be adjusted.
 

DeletedUser5976

Guest
i bet none of you have ever been in a situation where you kick yourself hard and make 2000 + points in a tournament along with some of your mates, but the best you achieve is 5th chest,
I have been in two fellowships under exactly the circumstances you described until I found my current fellowship. I just assumed that if they don't want to do more during a tourney, that is their right and I can't make them do more. The problem is mine to solve and I should find the right fellowship for myself that does like tourneys.
 

DeletedUser3451

Guest
that doesn't change the fact, that the "personal gains" should be changed. because i'm not the only one that doesn't see the logic of doing tourneys for kp, or the only one that loses broken shards because of the limit. yes, to change the fellowship would make me feel better, prolly, because i' be getting more chests and that's fine. but the rest will be still unable to be taken or too little or too expensive compared to other sources.
 

DeletedUser5976

Guest
You are right about the broken shards. Being able to save them would increase the value of KP as well, since people won't be stuck at the wheel as easily anymore. However decreasing the chest rewards for people who contribute less won't solve the problem for people who don't find individual rewards sufficient to do the tourney.
 
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