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Tournament Fighting

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by m4rt1n, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. Cerebros

    Cerebros Soothsayer

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2016
    It is strange that players who don't research Squad Size upgrades have an advantage in tournaments over players who do research all the Squad Size upgrades. You shouldn't be penalized for researching new technologies. I hope Inno will fix this ASAP--perhaps by setting the tournament difficulty to what chapter you are in, instead of how many Squad Size upgrade you have researched.
     
    Trufsonia, Trackalina and m4rt1n like this.
  2. Killiak

    Killiak Necromancer

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2016
    Feel free to irrefutably prove it to us
     
  3. Horanda

    Horanda Enchanter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    The difficulty of a battle, any battle, lies in your likelihood of winning.
    In Elvenar, that is determined by choosing the right troops, and the ratio between the size of your army and the size of the enemy army.
    Having chosen the right troops, the ONLY remaining factor is that ratio.
    That ratio is set by the system, and does not change when you change the maximum size of your Squads.
    Therefore, a larger Squad size does not change the difficulty of the battle. :)

    What is being discussed here is the cost of the battle, which does increase as your Squads get larger.
    Part of this at least is balance, because a person with larger Squad sizes should be able to afford the greater cost.
    The remainder is where all of the so-called 'war games' fall down (and I include FoE in this). If you cannot afford the cost of a battle, then it is wiser not to engage in the battle. :cool:
     
    Mykan likes this.
  4. Killiak

    Killiak Necromancer

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2016
    Thank you for elaborating with a very specific choice of words. It helps focus the discussion
    Now do allow me to add the following then;

    It would seem, and it has been discussed on the Beta forum as well, that researching Squad Size upgrades has a negative impact on the costs of fighting in tournaments. As it stands, it seems catering costs rise faster and enemies do get more "umph" to them hit for hit.
    In the regular provinces this does not seem to be the case though, which just seems so very odd to me. I'm sure other people (like SoggyShorts) have already reasoned it out, put up numbers etc etc on various other forums. The complaint is known.

    Ergo; people who do not research squad size upgrades have a (considerable) advantage over those who did do that research. Personally, I do not give a hoot about rankings and standings, but I do care about the fact that my research is actually being a negative in this aspect. I would really like Inno (@Muf-Muf, @Rilian, @Dizzy Lizzie) to look into this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    m4rt1n and Trufsonia like this.
  5. Horanda

    Horanda Enchanter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2015
    Sorry, @Nessie-jp , strategists say that you are wrong.
    A tactician will point out that although a battle may be winnable, the cost may be too high.
    It would be interesting to see the numbers showing the disadvantage that obtains when those with smaller Squad sizes are attempting to clear Provinces particularly when they start finding Orcs while still in Dwarves or Fairies.

    @Killiak and others, it sounds like some of you at least are seeing your involvement in Tournaments as a personal competition.
    The only thing that is gained after that 10th chest is meaningless. Since the Tournaments became Fellowship events, the important activity is getting the Fellowship to that 10th chest, nothing more. Ranking Points can be purchased, and are therefore valueless in measuring true success.
     
  6. Killiak

    Killiak Necromancer

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2016
    You'd be wrong, and you'd have misinterpreted my statements.

    And here we are getting somewhere.
    - Many people DO NOT KNOW that Squad size upgrades will hinder them in fighting/catering effectively in tournaments.
    - A lot of people have played for such a long time that back when they reasearched the upgrades, tournaments didn't even exist.

    So if, as you say, the important activity is getting the fellowship to the 10th chest, then I would deem it equally important that such upgrades actually HELP you (and as such your fellowship).

    Right now, the SS upgrade text says "Allows you to fight with bigger armies, which will make fights easier".
    I would very much like it if our research progress would actually stop hindering us in the tournaments, and instead would keep us in the same fighting shape as those with less research. I understand that this 'fighting shape' will always be relative, but as it stands it is skewed.
     
  7. LazyTony

    LazyTony Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Everything in Elvenar can be purchased with diamonds, and following this logic, its all pointless :D
     
    Lelanya and Cerebros like this.
  8. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    One thing I have noticed with taking 2 squad size upgrades was that the same fight became unwinnable from easily winnable when my opponents changed from Mortars to Frogs. If that is not an increase in difficulty then I don't know what is. :(

    That is just one example, before I could easily autofight round 1 to about 16 provinces, now I'm having to manually fight from round 1 just to win a few, and also have to cater some even in round 1.

    Edit: To add I have been successfully manually fighting for almost a year now and know they have got a lot more difficult with the squad upgrades, despite upgrading wonders and barracks to train a lot more troops.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  9. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    I'm managing a little better this week but the fights are still a lot more difficult. I've had to run 45 MM spells off this week on my boosts to cater anything that was not one troop type, and that obviously is not sustainable.
     
  10. kerykeion

    kerykeion Spellcaster

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2015
    I've made multiple posts about this. The solution is simple and involves three steps:

    All squad sizes must be made mandatory.
    Tournament difficulty must be related to currently researched chapter.
    Difficulty must be rescaled at higher levels.

    It doesn't make sense that someone who has invested less in the tech tree is at a major advantage over those who have invested more.

    It doesn't make sense that lower ranked players with less developed cities can compete with top players.

    It doesn't make sense that progressing in the tech tree makes you less competitive in tournaments compared to those with less progress.
     
  11. PhoenixFly1372

    PhoenixFly1372 Dreamer

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2018
    I am playing about 8 weeks now and on chapter 3, I had no idea that researching squad sizes would impact ability to cater/fight tournaments. I usually work thru until i am not winning or can't afford to cater and leave it at that. I assumed that everyone researched everything on the tree and have done this so far. I didnt want to miss anything and discover I needed it at a later stage. In addition at the beginning i out scouted myself, I can win fights in the tournaments but can't win ordinary fights in provinces, because of this I gave up fighting and just catered everything I could. I was losing too many troops and couldn't train them quick enough to catch up.

    with this current event i have again out scouted myself as I needed to solve a considerable number of encounters to gain relics for the quests so I can only work thru bit by bit what I can afford. I also contribute to the tournaments also, but I can say that I very much doubt the other fellows in my FS know that their research has impacted their ability to succeed in the tournaments.

    In spite of reading the guides and trying to get a handle on it i find the fighting hard to follow. the ratios are difficult for me and while I can see which troops to choose for a battle I can't seem to work out why a combination works in one case and then doesn't in the next.

    thanks for the info, I'm amazed that the research is affecting the game in this way!
     
  12. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    @Muf-Muf Inno really need to reward players who research everything, especially when they want to play in the tournaments like me.

    My suggestion would be a ?wonder backpedaled to chapter 3/4 that compensates squad upgrades for tournaments only. Each level takes off one level, but only if you have researched the voluntary ones. Maybe link it to the voluntary upgrades.

    OR, Voluntary squad upgrades do NOT count for tournaments, the fairest way to program it., PLEASE
     
    Mykan likes this.
  13. LazyTony

    LazyTony Sorcerer

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Not entirely sure that is the fairest way, because at this stage any change that is made will disadvantage some players. I've fought my way through 410 world map provinces without most of the optional squad techs in order to stay competitive at tourneys. The thing is, even if you have skipped every optional squad tech (and I haven't), and invested a lot in martial wonders (and I have), its very dispiriting to see mid range or even beginner accounts rack up scores that are untouchable by late chapter players (and I don't mean the occasional blowouts, I am talking about regular week in week out scores). So this isn't just about optional squad techs. Its about the balance between earlier and later players, and at the moment, it's simply easier to score a lot with a lower chapter account.

    I'll live with the consequences of any change that redresses this balance, even if I have to build dwarf fairy portals etc again in order to fill in missing squad techs.
     
    LadyHavva likes this.
  14. m4rt1n

    m4rt1n Summoner

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Well something need to change, and taking the optional squad techs out of the tournament equation seems the quickest and fairest way to sort this out.

    Maybe alter the requirements for the odd optional squad upgrade so guest race goods are not involved.

    And to add even taking all the additional squad tech's and having provinces on green, yes I can win the odd fight, but the huge squad sizes take days to fill with troops, so catering is still the best option if you play tourneys, as even a 50% loss of troops on provinces just fighting a couple wipes you out for the weekly tourney.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  15. Mykan

    Mykan Scholar

    Joined:
    May 6, 2016
    Fighting blue provinces on the world map is close to the first round of a tournament. Its not exact as blue difficulty is a range while tournament is fixed but it will give you enough of a sense. Alternatively just take the word of the game designers who have clearly stated that squad size does not impact tournament difficulty, quote is somewhere here on this forum.

    This is 100% correct, many discussions and lots of people doing maths have shown there is a distinct advantage in cost to skip optional techs. Granted if you start skipping optional techs too soon it will cripple your ability to use combat on the world map in the early chapters.

    One suggestion was to make the tournament cost dependent on the highest researched squad size. Not a perfect solution but it would equalise the playing field at set points in time. At the very least they need to make it clearer in game the effect of researching squad size techs on tournaments as well as provinces.

    Edit: or @m4rt1n suggestion of ignoring optional techs for tournaments would also even things up.
     
    m4rt1n likes this.
  16. Killiak

    Killiak Necromancer

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2016
    I asked for irrefutably, and you don't come with a better argument than "game devs"? Those same game devs who keep fixing little code mistakes that cause faulty calculations (training time for example).

    This is the reason why I keep asking them to look into this, because it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn of a misplaced bit of syntax/code/whatever.
     
  17. IamMiky

    IamMiky Seeker

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    I am just finishing Elementals-and average 3000pts per tour with zero adverse effects,in my FS the top tour scorers are ALL Amuni so I don't understand Brienne comment,and for me MH is for PoP,I have SSS primerally to have elite archers topping up for free and if needed use as scout and easier rounds,my goods seldom drop below 2m+ each overall-sure they drop in tour but only the main 3 required in the tour which I top back up in the following days along with those required for next tour for cater,I just work out the time needed to replace lost troops v goods and decide from there,if I have archers 2/3 hitting me first and the enemy has 6/7 and equal number troops I will cater as the troop loss (even if win) is greater in time/cost than fighting,bonus of DA in mana and free mages is my reason for having that,Maze is to big for me right now but handy for mana later,the rest are not really of interest right now,I do have 5 armories though for orcs,so all in all this post was to agree with you lol got carried away.
     

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