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the hypocrisy of kp exchange threads

i always found it funny how a large number of "fair trading only"' fellowships don't allow fellows to post 0 or 1 star trades but then they advertise on overviews and recruitment posts how they use kp exchanges like they're part of some sort of benefit package available to all of their fellows.

yeah, kp exchanges are simple and useful for some but fair for everyone...hell no.

players who earn less kp for wonders get a lot less in return per kp spent in an exchange than players who spend a lot and earn top rewards for donations. kp exchanges can sometimes become competitions among fellows to claim the best rewards. some younger or less active cities can end up getting nothing back for the kp they spend. i'm glad my fellowships had both a traditional kp exchange and an alternative system based on spending an amount of kp about = to the amount won instead of forcing everyone into an exchange system that can prey on younger and less active cities.

fellowships that claim to believe in fair trading for goods but don't have alternatives for those who won't get a fair return on exchanged kp really don't truly believe in fair trading among fellows at all. i think that they have a weak system for exchanging goods to not allow fellows to trade goods how they want to and they aren't willing to or don't know how to promote and enforce policies that actually are fair for helping all of their fellows' wonders. teams that actually believe in helping all of their fellows can solve both of those problems but kp exchanges and fair trading only policies are so common that it takes a lot of effort to dispel the myth that those are the most fair systems.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
i'm glad my fellowships had both a traditional kp exchange and an alternative system based on spending an amount of kp about = to the amount won instead of forcing everyone into an exchange system that can prey on younger and less active cities.
What is your alternative system?

KP swap threads are fair in terms of the returns being relative to the amount invested. You are right, though, in that the system is flawed unless the people using them are at similar stages with similar playing styles.

"Fair trading" isn't in my vocabulary, as you probably know by now as I don't believe there is any such thing as an unfair trade.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
Guess the TS was kicked in the groin and needed to bash back so it could to relieve itself from his pain and anger in some way.

No system is perfect, and swapthreads are no exception
The beauty of KP swap threads are it's simplicity, every dummy can understand and use it without external use from systems outside of the game.

My personal advise to "smaller" people is to try to target a few people in the guild instead of all, this way they are more able to get some nice prizes as well,
Another is to target the biggest wonders as in general those have almost a prize for every contributor for a fairly low investment.
Very small players should not put something in everything as this will result in almost no reward.

There is also wonder society, that try to solve what the TS noted, the main issue is that it's complicated to explain, requires the use of a spreadsheet and links outside of the game and therefore also "invisible" inside the game, you actively need to recruit the players into that system.
For some that works for some it doesnt. I know plenty of people who find copying a link is already impossible and way to complicated, try wonder society with those players lol
 
What is your alternative system?
based on spending an amount of kp about = to the amount won. if a wonder will award 20, 15, 10, 5, and 5 we get 5 members to all spend those amounts sometime near when that wonder has room for just 55kp left. it's not perfect either but i like that folks have a choice to use whichever method is best for them. it takes a little more effort and sometimes fellows need to be reminded to help each other fairly but it's easier to get runes into the hands of folks that need them since younger cities don't have to deal w/ a long list of large donations to get runes. i save a lot of kp unless that amount will make the difference needed for an upgrade. sometimes i'll need to spend 60kp to win 60 back but that helps a fellow and costs me nothing. i recommend that fellows keep about 25 or so on hand to help.
My personal advise to "smaller" people is to try to target a few people in the guild instead of all, this way they are more able to get some nice prizes as well,
EDIT NOTE- i misunderstood that sentence of yours. i thought you meant having smaller cities form a kp exchange just for smaller cities who earned less kp than others when i wrote this...
not sure what a TS is but i like this idea. i tried to establish that at one point but my other system was liked more than traditional exchanges so that idea wasn't popular w/ those players.


i did get tired or trying to dispel common myths about trading both goods and kp and i got a few hatemails on very rare occasions from outsiders that couldn't intercept my fellowship's goods without paying extra:) i made great efforts to pay fellows back from my 1 star trades so they had access to my goods and fair trades and i'd often profit from non fellows too;). but i also got more thank yous than the other kind of _____ yous, even from folks who spent extra to get what they needed. trading was a lot of fun for me. it's too bad a lot of folks don't get to experience it like i did.
another note is that fair traders often didn't seem to mind placing excessive cross tier trades back when the 4 to 1 ratio wasn't fair and those traders often didn't have the surplus i did so they needed trades more but their fellows didn't have the incentive to trade that i did, so they often didn't post trades for their fellows or if they did, they could be taken by neighbors
 
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MinMax Gamer

Sorcerer
based on spending an amount of kp about = to the amount won. if a wonder will award 20, 15, 10, 5, and 5 we get 5 members to all spend those amounts sometime near when that wonder has room for just 55kp left.
I must be missing something here. So I'd have to contribute 20 in order to get 20 back? What's in it for me then (please don't say runes)?
 

pompeywolf

Enchanter
I must be missing something here. So I'd have to contribute 20 in order to get 20 back? What's in it for me then (please don't say runes)?
I think with that system the owner gets given 20% (the rewards add up to 20% i think) of the kp needed to upgrade the wonder and the people investing get everything back that they put in. So its only fair if everyone does it, as then everyone need 20% less kp to upgrade wonders.
 

MinMax Gamer

Sorcerer
Ah, the closure system. The one where there is no (easy) way to see who is contributing and who is only dumping KPs into their own AWs while other members contributing the remaining 20%. Sounds fair.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
I haven't figured out an easier 'fairer' way than your standard simple swap thread. It is true that the biggest rewards go to the people putting the most into them. Since this thread started I've been scratching my head, thinking 'is this unfair?' I can see that it could leave smaller players out in the cold after donating all that they are able, but it still does directly reward how much people put into it, which is good.

We don't have any small (pre-guest race) members in our FS, but I do know that the one in our group with the lowest ranking points is quite often at the top of the donating lists on people's AWs.

It probably helps having 6 separate threads, ranging from 5KP to 50KP. The people wielding the bigger numbers of KPs are more likely to donate into the 50KP and 30KP threads, so that in itself allows people to figure out what the best is for them.
 

MinMax Gamer

Sorcerer
I haven't figured out an easier 'fairer' way than your standard simple swap thread. It is true that the biggest rewards go to the people putting the most into them. Since this thread started I've been scratching my head, thinking 'is this unfair?' I can see that it could leave smaller players out in the cold after donating all that they are able, but it still does directly reward how much people put into it, which is good.
Smaller cities doesn't necessarily mean smaller donations. They just have to focus more. The way I see it, smaller cities shouldn't be using actual KPs for AW leveling - these are much better spent on progressing in the chapters (so, you know, they can catch up with those bigger guys who scoop in all the rewards ;)). AWKPs, on the other hand, are storable, so they can dump these just as easily and as much as the big guys - as long as they only do it to a handful of AWs.
 

Lelanya

Artisan
This system of YMLM sounds like the kind that Hunters particularly enjoy discovering. But that is a whole other (locked) kettle of fish.
 
What's in it for me then (please don't say runes
yep, runes:p, the fact that you can expect the same help when it's your wonder that needs help:cool:, the added chemistry and teamwork that comes from fellows being treated fairly:), and the option to use whichever system you think is best for you, which can change in certain circumstances. i didn't want teammates in my fellowships to be exploited:mad:.

5kp for 5kp or 60kp for 60kp costs us nothing as long as we don't spend early enough to risk being outbid. this is more fair, imo because everyone gets an amount equal to what their wonder awards instead of rewards that vary greatly when it comes to reward per kp spent. it also encourages fellows to look out for each other instead of creating a competitive atmosphere among them, just like they should look out for each other when it comes to trading goods. i was a noob w/ 3 weeks of experience when i was made an archmage of a group of 4 fellows by default and i credit that attitude and having very good teammates w/ similar attitudes as being a key to having that fellowship evolve into one i considered successful (10 chests regularly). we had great teamwork already even before tournaments had fellowship rewards and those made teamwork even more important. that didn't hurt when it was time for fellowship misadventures either.

the 2 exchanging methods accomplish the same thing. they share the same amount of kp but 1 system shares it more fairly. kp rewards are like matter and energy--you can't create any more than what's already there by distributing it differently. the traditional exchanges are only more profitable for those who can exploit them and their teammates. even worse would be if someone, especially on a global non-fellowship kp exchange would double deal to cheat certain donors out of rewards to get those rewards to cities they were more allied with, like better friends, fellows, or their own push accounts. if i had a fellow w/ a push account, they could still use the 5kp for 5kp method fairly in our fellowship if they had rewards left to offer. i am not a fan of push accounts but i wouldn't turn down recruiting a strong fellow who used them. good fellows are hard to find and a lot of people are capable of learning how to be better fellows.
 
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Smaller cities doesn't necessarily mean smaller donations
true. it's size, activity, and tournament ability. those factors can vary a lot from player to player. having both systems in the same fellowship makes that fellowship more compatible w/ a larger range of players, which can help recruitment.
 
My personal advise
if you're the same crazywizard from the old website, i liked your combat advice better than the advice at "gems" for a few reasons but especially because "gems" seemed to make people believe they needed a training grounds, merc camp, flying academy, and victory springs when i think it's best to focus a lot of kp into just needles and of course a shrine. maybe just a flying academy if that's the route someone wants to go but i think a player is better off w/ just a very strong needles than just a very strong flying academy. for sure, having mediocre versions of both is not the best for a city's military.

i also liked your list of pros and cons about wonders. the only thing that i didn't see either website mention was the disadvantage of having too many wonders.

you still had a very good site though. we used to use your kp exchange charts to hunt kp and runes in other fellowships--another good teamwork building activity that also helped players think defensively when it came to protecting the rewards at their and their fellows' wonders.
 
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kp hunters end up getting outbid at the last minute if this system is done correctly. people should ask for help when their wonder is close to the point when it has an amount of rewards about equal to the amount of room that left for donations. so anyone who is looking for cheap rewards will end up losing to the fellows that spend evenly, 5kp for 5kp, 20 for 20, etc.

my teams learned to hunt together as a team very early on, even before we were awarded kp in form of instants. hunting encouraged fellows to work together to protect their wonders and helping each other's wonders the way i described encouraged them to share kp and donate en masse when hunting. these 2 things complimented each other.

i'm sure most fellowships have at least a couple of players that don't use traditional kp swapping threads. i'm sure this is even more true w/ app players that can't use messages. in our system, fellows who couldn't send messages or didn't want to use kp threads could have their wonders protected more easily because lots of folks were willing to protect them as long as they broke even on kp. without this system of helping each other fairly, players who don't use swapping threads leave their wonders vulnerable and kp profits are more likely to leave their fellowship and go to teams that work together to hunt, like to my teams that learned to get very good at snagging free kp. our system strongly encouraged fellows to watch each other's back and gave them a good method to do so.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
I think you should really look into the wonder society, I have never actually done it myself (would love to if somebody else put in the effort to set it up of course lol). But out of the existing systems I think that would be the fairest one. Of course no system is 100% fail proof, but I guess it gets closest to that.
We do swap threads for the simplicity of it.
 

RainbowElvira

Sorcerer
I think you should really look into the wonder society, I have never actually done it myself (would love to if somebody else put in the effort to set it up of course lol). But out of the existing systems I think that would be the fairest one.
If you have 2 or 3 members who are able and willing to maintain the spreadsheet, the Wonder Society is superior to KP chain mails in every way.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
Ah, the closure system. The one where there is no (easy) way to see who is contributing and who is only dumping KPs into their own AWs while other members contributing the remaining 20%. Sounds fair.
kp hunters end up getting outbid at the last minute if this system is done correctly. people should ask for help when their wonder is close to the point when it has an amount of rewards about equal to the amount of room that left for donations. so anyone who is looking for cheap rewards will end up losing to the fellows that spend evenly, 5kp for 5kp, 20 for 20, etc.

my teams learned to hunt together as a team very early on, even before we were awarded kp in form of instants. hunting encouraged fellows to work together to protect their wonders and helping each other's wonders the way i described encouraged them to share kp and donate en masse when hunting. these 2 things complimented each other.

i'm sure most fellowships have at least a couple of players that don't use traditional kp swapping threads. i'm sure this is even more true w/ app players that can't use messages. in our system, fellows who couldn't send messages or didn't want to use kp threads could have their wonders protected more easily because lots of folks were willing to protect them as long as they broke even on kp. without this system of helping each other fairly, players who don't use swapping threads leave their wonders vulnerable and kp profits are more likely to leave their fellowship and go to teams that work together to hunt, like to my teams that learned to get very good at snagging free kp. our system strongly encouraged fellows to watch each other's back and gave them a good method to do so.
In theory this works just fine, in reality to many fellows end up not participating / ingnored and in the end, we swoop in en get the reward.

I haven't figured out an easier 'fairer' way than your standard simple swap thread. It is true that the biggest rewards go to the people putting the most into them. Since this thread started I've been scratching my head, thinking 'is this unfair?' I can see that it could leave smaller players out in the cold after donating all that they are able, but it still does directly reward how much people put into it, which is good.

We don't have any small (pre-guest race) members in our FS, but I do know that the one in our group with the lowest ranking points is quite often at the top of the donating lists on people's AWs.

It probably helps having 6 separate threads, ranging from 5KP to 50KP. The people wielding the bigger numbers of KPs are more likely to donate into the 50KP and 30KP threads, so that in itself allows people to figure out what the best is for them.
Another advantage beside it's extreme simplicity is the inherent way it works that activates people, and makes them communicate with eachother.
The other systems need "oversight" and are not inherently active by nature.

As long as those with a small pocket do not target all 24 players wonder they are doing indeed fine, those who spend a lot usually have a very low return rate as they are throwing in lots and lots, we never had any issue. and yes there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle.
While other systems might be inherently "fairer" the disadvantage stated above is for me the main reason to prefer the more simple and activating method before pure "fairness"

We recently went from 5 to 4 threads
5, 10, 20 and 50KP, this gives 5 more than 5,10,15, 20,30, while at the same time keeping 1 spot on the first page open for communication, either from in or outside the fellowship, with 5 threads (or worse 6) a non wonder post will seldom survive for more than 10-30 min on the first page, making other forms of communication to difficult.


you're the same crazywizard from the old website, i liked your combat advice better than the advice at "gems" for a few reasons but especially because "gems" seemed to make people believe they needed a training grounds, merc camp, flying academy, and victory springs when i think it's best to focus a lot of kp into just needles and of course a shrine. maybe just a flying academy if that's the route someone wants to go but i think a player is better off w/ just a very strong needles than just a very strong flying academy. for sure, having mediocre versions of both is not the best for a city's military.

i also liked your list of pros and cons about wonders. the only thing that i didn't see either website mention was the disadvantage of having too many wonders.
Same fellow, but that website has died long ago.
Thanks to a competing website who was maintained by moderators using there moderating tools to extract data easily.
So I lost the interest in that website. why spending all those hours/weeks/months comming up with a valuable but yet incomplete guide, just for some jackass to swoop in copy it and fill that missing information in 5 minutes using the moderating tools.

Those wonder advise was written with old knowledge, there was no such thing as a too many wonder issue, a more modern one can be found here on the us forums.
http://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/aw-rankings.21914/post-180732
 

Pauly7

Mentor
We recently went from 5 to 4 threads
5, 10, 20 and 50KP, this gives 5 more than 5,10,15, 20,30, while at the same time keeping 1 spot on the first page open for communication, either from in or outside the fellowship, with 5 threads (or worse 6) a non wonder post will seldom survive for more than 10-30 min on the first page, making other forms of communication to difficult.
Do you really think that's a problem? We have 6 swap threads and I didn't ever imagine people wouldn't be opening messages just because they have slid to the second page. Maybe it happens though. I do feel like there's quite a few people that don't always open messages. I've actually been mulling over starting a 100KP swap thread... then that would make 7, haha.

What I think would make much more of a difference is if the original message of a thread could be pinned to the top so that people were still reading the useful information when they open it. Sometimes I think that people see the back-end of a conversation going on and don't realise that there's something they should read at the beginning. We've asked Inno, more than once, for this feature to be added, but no joy so far.