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Surplus Rune Shards can be swapped for Knowledge Points - now in Beta

rock stream

Scholar
One presumes that they may be having some kind of rethink "thought"
When you think about this proposed major change and the potential impacts to all levels of players it is quite interesting.
Newer players usually advance their Ancient Wonders (AWs) through utilization of the broken shard bar for shards. When an AW is full, build and blow it up and start over hoping for broken shards again. With this change a newer player will be tempted to obtain the 10/15 KP benefit or even be required to, depending how fellowships deal with it.
Advanced players, say 3+ year players, this is a bonanza of KP that will allow rapid advancement of their AW's to their best level but with impacts in aspects of game complexity.
In our fellowship we have players ranging in score from 50,000 to 800,000. If we set up a swap system that will benefit 8 players but the consequence could be a negative impact on the 8 lower score players. Who wins with this the players? the fellowship? INNO?
This change just adds to the growing complexity of the the game. It reminds me of the Nationally Lampoon book "The Job of Sex". INNO's version is the "Job of Playing a Game".
Thank-you Jackluyt for all your game information. With the lost of GEMS you have become the sole source of game info.
 

Hekata

Summoner
Job of Playing a Game
Agree with all you said and especially this.

It's bad enough that I can't upgrade my AWs as I wish but instead I'm constantly wondering how bad another level is going to be for the tournament and spire, and I wishfully look at all the AWs I'd like to build but never will... but now I have also to keep track of how many kps I get vs how many I give away.
Ofc I "solved" my problem by stopping to upgrade all my wonders but 1 (and I only put kps into it when a quest asks for it) and also by staying in the same chapter for what seems like an eternity. So for me it's more a case of the "Job of not playing the game" lol :)
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
It has only been two and half weeks since the rune-shards change was announced in Beta. That isn't a particularly long gap. It took three and a half weeks before C19 went from Beta to Live for example.

This change just adds to the growing complexity of the the game.

Personally I enjoy complexity in the game, but I may be in a minority.


It's bad enough that I can't upgrade my AWs as I wish but instead I'm constantly wondering how bad another level is going to be for the tournament and spire, and I wishfully look at all the AWs I'd like to build but never will...

Personally I don't blame Inno for this, but rather misinformation (or perhaps just gross exaggerations) on the Forum. You will be absolutely fine if you completely ignore the tournament formula and all of the claimed impacts of it.


now I have also to keep track of how many kps I get vs how many I give away.

Not really. The game does that for you. Inno are just stopping very unbalanced exchanges of kp. They have long been doing something similar for individual trades, and no-one seems to complain about that.
 
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Hekata

Summoner
Personally I don't blame Inno for this, but rather misinformation (or perhaps just gross exaggerations) on the Forum. You will be absolutely fine if you completely ignore the tournament formula and all of the claimed impacts of it.
That hasn't been my experience. Adding AW levels has definitely made it harder for me to keep doing my usual 25 provinces. I only autofight and the loses are huge and harder and harder to replace. I need to cater more than before and I often run out of coins and supplies which I never did before.
 

Jackluyt

Necromancer
That hasn't been my experience. Adding AW levels has definitely made it harder for me to keep doing my usual 25 provinces. I only autofight and the loses are huge and harder and harder to replace. I need to cater more than before and I often run out of coins and supplies which I never did before.

Upgrading a single wonder adds only a miniscule amount to your expenses in Spire and Tournament - I have the formula by Minmax Game. Provided you choose your wonders carefully, the extra strength they add to fighting, troop production etc should more than offset the little extra expense. This condition was added to clip the wings of people with lots of feeder 'Push' accounts who have every wonder at level 30 - it should have very little real effect on normal players. Certainly, one should not upgrade 'junk wonders'.
:)

Summary from Minmaxgame:

- If other parameters stay the same, a single extra unlocked mandatory squad size research will increase your base Spire squad size (SS) by 0.42%

- For every ~333 Ancient Wonder levels you get 1 x Spire SS increase. E.g. if your Spire SS with no AWs whatsoever is 1x, then adding ~333 AW levels will double it to 2x, ~667 AW levels will triple it to 3x and 1000 AW levels will quadruple it to 4x.

- Adding a single premium expansion increases your Spire SS less than adding a single non-premium expansion.

- Max relics boost is also a factor for small cities, but stays constant once you reach 700%
As for your small city, then tournament and Spire squad sizes are not connected. If you have a lot of expansions and AW levels, then your Spire SS will be high - but it won't have any impact on tournament SS.
 

CrazyWizard

Summoner
Oh my God, so now they are telling me what to do with the speed I upgrade my AWs? Definetely, if all this as you´re explaining is what´s going to happen, it would turn in one big mistake from Inno, AGAIN....

It's about an imbalance, people who gain a lot more KP than they give away.
So unless you are "pushing" you should not have a problem. (so for each KP you give at another player, you gain 1 point to your balance total)

You can diverge 2800 + 560 points per week of registration from the lockdown.

This means in a year you need to gain 30.000 points more than you give away.
I think it's fair to say that if you go beyond that limit you are pushing.
 
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Pauly7

Master of the Elements
Upgrading a single wonder adds only a miniscule amount to your expenses in Spire and Tournament
For clarity, the difference is not inherently miniscule. The nature of the calculation means that the difference is based on the number of AW levels that are already in a city. If someone has 500 existing levels then it is miniscule. If someone has just one level, then adding a second would make a massive difference.
 

Turing

Soothsayer
For clarity, the difference is not inherently miniscule. The nature of the calculation means that the difference is based on the number of AW levels that are already in a city. If someone has 500 existing levels then it is miniscule. If someone has just one level, then adding a second would make a massive difference.

No, because it's multiplying by (333 + wonder_levels). The first level adds 0.3% to the size. If you already have 160-ish levels that will drop to 0.2% extra.
 

elvie8787

Novice
Alright, here is some simple math regarding my own personal game account in reply to people saying 10-15kp is "too much" and that everyone will have level 31 AW's etc. in "no time"

I am playing this game for 11 months now. I am about to start chapter 15 in a week. My total AW level is 79. GA at level 17, Needles at level 13 and DA at level 11 are the highest level AW's in my city atm. I have around 800 rune shards that I can use in this feature = 12k kp. If I use all of those in our fellowship KP threads, I will be able to get Simia Sapiens from level 1 to 14, and Timewarp from level 1 to 16. And that's it! 2 AW's to level 14 and 16. Not to mention I am still lacking TotT, Victory Springs etc. and my Sanctuary is at level 6 only, and I am fighting the entire spire every week and do around 4-5k pts in tournament by fighting, without even having the fighting AW's (due to .. guess what .. NO KP to upgrade any of those)

So NO, this is not "game-breaking" and NO, it won't make new players cities (like mine) nowhere near being close to veteran players. It simply means that we can upgrade a SINGLE AW from level 1 to 21 or like I said 2 AW's to level 14-16.

The ones that would benefit the most from this feature are the ones who are playing the game for years and years, and that's how it is supposed to be. They should be rewarded for their time invested in this game. But new players like me do NOT have thousands or tens of thousands of excessive rune shards.

I can bet my money as well on the fact that most of the players who are playing for 11 months like me don't even have the same amount of rune shards I do, but less, or a lot less. Meaning they will get almost nothing from the feature initially even at 10-15kp per shard. So there's that ;)

With that being said, I am looking forward to this feature being launched, so I can get some upgrades on my timewarp once I unlock it in a week time. Then I can do 6 rounds of tournament like the rest of you guys, and not just 5 rounds a week ;)
 

Hekata

Summoner
Provided you choose your wonders carefully................Certainly, one should not upgrade 'junk wonders'.
See, I have a problem with this, I should be able to upgrade any wonder I want regardless if it befits tournaments or not.
But this has all been discussed at length here, no use restarting the old tournament formula discussion, it's a bit off topic anyway :)
 

Hekata

Summoner
The ones that would benefit the most from this feature are the ones who are playing the game for years and years,
Players who have been playing for years and years usually have all the AWs they thought were useful to them at max or very high levels already so it's not particularly beneficial for them either IMHO :)
 

Far Reach

Conjurer
Provided you choose your wonders carefully, the extra strength they add to fighting, troop production etc should more than offset the little extra expense. This condition was added to clip the wings of people with lots of feeder 'Push' accounts who have every wonder at level 30 - it should have very little real effect on normal players. Certainly, one should not upgrade 'junk wonders'.

Do you have a citation for these assertions about Inno's intentions. I remember them as being very consistent in describing the purpose of the formula as being to reduce, but not eliminate the benefits of progress of all kinds. For example the relevant Project Manager (in the "News of Elvenar" forum here) said the following.

The basic goal of the cost formula is to provide all players with a challenging but fair tournament. However, progress in the game - in any form - should still be worthwhile and improve the tournament success. We are convinced that we are much closer to this goal with the new system than with the old system, which determined the squad size solely based on squad size research. In this old system, the top rankings were only distributed based on the available provinces a player had.
We understand the frustration of players who are now able to earn fewer tournament points and individual rewards than before. Nevertheless, no player should be afraid of further progress. For example, from the analyses that we have been running, we can't see that players with more premium expansions now perform worse than players with fewer premium expansions. On the contrary, these players continue to perform significantly better than comparable players. The same is true for Ancient Wonder levels, progress in the research tree and ordinary expansions. How much better these players should perform is of course open to debate, but we can't see any "penalty" that would disproportionately slow down the tournament progress based on any of these factors.
This is not to say, of course, that there will be no more adjustments. Over time, we will certainly continue to monitor tournaments in general and the cost formula in particular. For example, we currently see a possible weakness of the new system in the equal treatment of all ancient wonders. We certainly agree that some wonders are much more valuable for tournaments than others. The formula does not make this difference at the moment. In addition, we continue to monitor players at the top end of the spectrum to ensure that costs are not disproportionately high at a certain point. However, since the number of players in this area is quite small, it takes a little longer to have any meaningful results to our analyses there.


This latest initiative involves (at least) two changes to AWs - making them easier to level, and the unannounced introduction of an automated anti-pushing measure. I think that it would be sensible to introduce other changes at the same time - specifically balancing the tournament cost of an AW with its usefulness in tournaments, and also adding extra AW levels.
 
You can diverge 2800 + 560 points per week of registration from the lockdown.

This means in a year you need to gain 30.000 points more than you give away.
I think it's fair to say that if you go beyond that limit you are pushing.

2800 are the total KP I can transfer to my own AWs? Or this number is the maximun I can trasnfer to another fellow AWs?

If I have all those unused rune shards, of course anyone will deploy them in some fellow AWs or in their own, and that´s not Inno business, that´s what this "amazing" change allow players to do, the fail is only from Inno if this new change allow people to push not the players buddy.
 

Sir Derf

Sage
  • Transferring to your own AWs is not a thing. That's not a transfer.
  • 2800 + (560*weeks since lockdown), not 2800
  • Not the maximum, but the imbalance of (you donating to another fellow) - (that fellow donating to you)

And if you hit that limit, then if they don't donate to you, then wait a week and you can donate an additional 560.

Also, it is INNO's game. It literally is INNO's business.
 
  1. Transferring to your own AWs is not a thing. That's not a transfer.
  2. 2800 + (560*weeks since lockdown), not 2800
  3. Not the maximum, but the imbalance of (you donating to another fellow) - (that fellow donating to you)

  1. What the word "transfer" means? . The word is absolutely in place since I´m transferring KP from my stock to someone AWs or in its case to my own AWs, I´ve got no clue what are you trying to impel here.
  2. I still don´t understand this at all. The balance has or has not a exact number in the kp limit I can transfer from my KP stock to the AWs I want to upgrade with that same stocked KP?
  3. Ok thanks, here you explain part of what I did ask, all the other things you answered to me are irrelevant.
And if you hit that limit, then if they don't donate to you, then wait a week and you can donate an additional 560.

So this balance limit per week is applied also to someone that fill his own AWs? Or do I have all the freedom to fill my own AWs beyond 2800 kp and do this in anytime I want like it always has been?

Also, it is INNO's game. It literally is INNO's business.

LOL, Who´s saying the contrary? When my words were like: Elvenar belongs to the players; Or like: Elvenar is a property of us, the players we play it? Could you post that claim here?
The word "business" here I´m using is not literal but rhetorical, and is related to the incumbent a company has over his players (clients) that follow their own rules.

I literaly said that "this fail" is only from Inno part (since this is the owner company duhhh), the cause of players deploying enormous quantities of KP in their own and friends AWs is Inno cause, and the next prohibition of exactly that is also inno responsability.
 
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CrazyWizard

Summoner
  1. What the word "transfer" means? . The word is absolutely in place since I´m transferring KP from my stock to someone AWs or in its case to my own AWs, I´ve got no clue what are you trying to impel here.
  2. I still don´t understand this at all. The balance has or has not a exact number in the kp limit I can TRANSFER from my KP stock to the AWs I want to upgrade with that same stocked KP?
  3. Ok thanks, here you explain part of what I did ask, all the other things you answered to me are irrelevant.


So this balance limit per week is applied also to someone that fill his own AWs? Or do I have all the freedom to fill my own AWs beyond 2800 kp and do this in anytime I want like it always has been?



LOL, Who´s saying the contrary? When my words were like: Elvenar belongs to the players; Or like: Elvenar is a property of us, the players we play it????????????????? Could you post that claim here?
The word "business" here I´m using is not literal but rhetorical, and is related to the incumbent a company has over his players (clients) that follow their own rules.

I literaly said that "this fail" is only from Inno part (since this is the owner company OFC, duhhh), the cause of players deploying enormous quantities of KP in their own and friends AWs is Inno cause, and the next prohibition of exactly that is also inno responsability.
You can throw a million KP in a week if you could.

It's a counter that counts how KP you gain from other people vs how much you give to other people.
If you gain much more than you give to other people thats when the anti cheat kicks in and others will not be able to donate in your wonders.
 
You can throw a million KP in a week if you could.

It's a counter that counts how KP you gain from other people vs how much you give to other people.
If you gain much more than you give to other people thats when the anti cheat kicks in and others will not be able to donate in your wonders.
Oh god. So if I´ve got in stock 6000kp, with this new dictatorial device I won´t be able to spend all that in my own AWs in a period of 2-3 days?
The players will be now forced to use any form of KP exchanging/swapping method to transfer each other all their KP in stock or in shards from now on? What about the players that don´t like those systems and just want to use all the new kp from shards in their own AWs?
This "thing" ( I would have use here a very rude word instead of the word "thing" but moderation would have edit it so..) is just so dump, unnecessary and limiting, one should use all his KP at free will in whatever person AW he wants and in any period of time he wished.
 
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Stucon

Sorcerer
@DunkelSaturn
Why do you feel the need to be so disparaging of anyone who disagrees with you? Even when they support their point with facts or data. Stop being so unpleasant, You are spoiling the forum for me at least. I have an inward groan each time I see a posting from you.
 
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