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Discussion Summer Solstice

Sir Derf

Sage
Oh, 12 quests asking for a total of 104 Encounters and 4 quests that want a total of 5 completed Provinces; that's 109 Encounters, or 13+ Provinces. Throw in the 9 quests asking for a total of 52 Relics, and that could be 161 Encounters, or 20+ Provinces. Is this unreasonable for people with low trade goods? Low fighting ability? Low available scouted provinces? Low scouting time, or coins? "Overscouted" and don't have the ability to make the resources newly needed to negotiate?

Or you could do Tourneys... 505 Tourney Encounters would be 21+ 4-Encounter, 6-round Tourney Provinces. Is this unreasonable in time, in fighting, in catering, in not being in a Fellowship?
 

Heymrdiedier

Enchanter
Because some time ago on a live Q&A session one of the game designers stated that all events would be able to be completed by all players. I have never seen any info from INNO that states they have changed that.
what exactly would be uncompletable in this event?
I have done all previous event fine with both lvl 2 accounts and end tech accounts. I never encountered something that couldnt be done in the time given.
The only undoable thing i see is possible a quest that ask you to place or accept trade offers when you dont have a trader yet. But surely in the 28 days (or more) the event runs, you can manage to unlock and build that trader....
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
Why is it unreasonable for highly advanced players to not be able to complete all the quests in time before this event ends?
To answer this simply see if you can make a statement with a straight face:
"It is perfectly reasonable for an advanced player to fail through no fault of their own at completing the event"
Did it work? Or did it sound a little off to you?

The idea is to balance things so that the effort:reward ratio is acceptable to most players, or just on the edge of that so some are tempted to spend a little bit to reduce the effort side. This is the core of the F2P genre.

The problem is that advanced players find different quests difficult compared to newer players.
The solution is either tailor made quests which is a crapton of work, or they add a second condition: the "OR" quests.
  • A good example is "Scout a province OR upgrade a building to level 17" It's good because players in chapters 1-5 can scout pretty quikly and players in chapters 6+ can and should upgrade buildings. Still a little tough on endgame players with max buildings, but they can at least prepare for it by tearing down and restarting a residence/workshop/armory.
  • A bad example is "Scout a province or research a tech"It's bad because both conditions are harder(or even impossible:tech) for the same group.
That's why they added the VV option-- because we asked them to.

So, to answer basically all of your "Why Why Why" questions:
If a player does everything right in their city, plays frequently and puts forth a reasonable effort they should have a reasonable expectation of victory. If not they quite understandably are disappointed. Games, unlike real life, carry a certain expectation of "fairness"
 
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Sir Derf

Sage
:) -("It is perfectly reasonable for an advanced player to fail through no fault of their own at completing the event")

No problem. Or was I smiling too much?

But seriously.

First, I don't think everyone should be guaranteed to complete every event. And neither do you:
The idea is to balance things so that the effort:reward ratio is acceptable to most players, or just on the edge of that so some are tempted to spend a little bit to reduce the effort side. This is the core of the F2P genre.

Most players, not everyone.

And again:
If a player does everything right in their city, plays frequently and puts forth a reasonable effort they should have a reasonable expectation of victory.

Not guaranteed, reasonable.

So, in this event, highly advanced players might not complete all the quests. So?



Second, I understand that asking for 5 scoutings over a 25 day event is difficult for people with long scouting times, but I don't see this as impossible, or even unreasonable, even if scouting takes 5 days each.

Just as asking for 40 24h T1Boost and 19 48h T1Boost is difficult for people with few T1Boost Manufactories, but not impossible or unreasonable (for all but the earliest players).
Or asking for 49 9h Supplies and 39 24h Supplies is difficult for people with few Workshops, but not impossible, or even unreasonable (again, for all but the earliest players).

If a player does everything right in their city, plays frequently and puts forth a reasonable effort they should have a reasonable expectation of victory.

Does that not include using time boosts?

If you know your bottleneck is going to be time, then isn't it reasonable to plan to use time boosts? My first event or two took place before I had room, pop or culture to allow me to make many temp buildings. So I used time boosts strategically. More recent events for me took place in between guest races, and I had plenty of room, but this time I'm still in Orcs and have limited space. Again, I'm using time boosts. I consider this to be me doing everything right. And I would consider a highly advanced player, who knows he has long scouting times, and yet doesn't use time boosts, to be doing something wrong.

And if you're short on time boosts, wouldn't a reasonable effort for a person in this situation be to spend time crafting time boosts? Or to plan on going for the Daily Prizes on day 4 and 14, which are 4x14h boosts (56h, 2+ days at a shot)? Or to preferentially open chests that offer time instants, (85 has 40% chance at 4x8h (32h), 18 has 45% chance at 2x2h (4h))?

Even before the addition of the option to alternately gain Vision Vapors, I believe that the quest list provided a reasonable expectation of victory if a (minimally advanced) player did everything right in their city, played frequently and put forth a reasonable effort. Where's the problem?
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
Not guaranteed, reasonable.
So, in this event, highly advanced players might not complete all the quests. So?
This entirely depends on why they might not complete.
Obviously, events shouldn't be too easy, but face it, some quest requirements are more reasonable than others.
If an advanced player chooses not to complete the event because it would cost a couple of hundred hours of timer reductions, is that a good thing? Why do you think that's a good thing? Is it the best possible thing? Why?
Why should a chapter 4, 8, and 12 players be able to complete the event using zero timers, if an advanced player has to use many?
Even before the addition of the option to alternately gain Vision Vapors, I believe that the quest list provided a reasonable expectation of victory if a (minimally advanced) player did everything right in their city, played frequently and put forth a reasonable effort. Where's the problem?
The problem(as clearly stated by many players) was for maximally advanced players.
"research a tech"= impossible
"scout a province" = unreasonable for many when balanced against the rewards.
Even inno agrees since they added a 3rd option of VV based on our feedback.
 

MinMax Gamer

Illusionist
Why should a chapter 4, 8, and 12 players be able to complete the event using zero timers, if an advanced player has to use many?

I must say that I am with Sir Derf on this one. If you're maximally advanced (i.e. end game):
- You don't need to keep space for guest race settlement. That's 20+ expansions right there
- Have tons of pop and culture to build massive L1 shantytown
- Have enough provinces scouted so that number of provinces in the tournament (can be used to close encounters/relic/enchantments quests) is never an issue
- 5 day scouting times? I am pretty sure to do that you need to massively overscout - way more than Constructs min requirement of 360. Nothing's wrong with that, but it's a decision that player made, and it gained him/her even more space -> see above
- You can stockpile more goods for catering, as research and upgrades are no longer an issue
- You can level your AWs more to gain even more advantage in tournaments/production
- Etc...

So I am not exactly crying for end-game players, certainly not comparing with mid-game or early game players. Basically, if you're in end-game you can breeze through pretty much all other quests - that's 110 of them this time. So the remaining 5 are more difficult - I mean, come on. And it is indeed can be easily solved with minimal planning and using time boosters, which are generously given nowadays even from regular chest openings, not to mention dedicated prizes, crafting etc.

What else do you see as even remotely challenging for the end game player?
 

Sir Derf

Sage
First, to get this out of the way...

My parenthetical insert of the "minimally advanced" phrase was to acknowledge that early players obviously can't. My statement of belief still stands for all other players, including maximally advanced players.



Second, why should it cost a maximally advanced player " a couple of hundred hours of time reductions"? How long is it going to take the maximally advanced player to perform the other quests, which they can complete while simultaneously scouting?

The Scout quests are numbers 37, 57, 87, 101 and 115, meaning there are 36, 20, 30, 14 and 14 quests between each quest for scouting.

Before 37, there are quests for 9h and 24h Workshops and 24h and 48h T1Boost, among others.
Before 57, there are quests for 9h and 24h Workshops and 24h T1Boost, among others.
Before 87, there are quests for 9h and 24h Workshops and 24h and 48h T1Boost, among others.
Before 101, there are quests for 9h and 24h Workshops and 24h T1Boost, among others.
Before 115, there are quests for 9h and 24h Workshops and 24h and 48h T1Boost, among others.

Looking at the above, I guess a maximally advanced player can accomplish in 48 hours each, and after the first, the second could be finished before the previous scouting has finished. My guess is that they would have little difficulty doing the other quests in less than 5 days each, so each of the above 5 linchpin quests can be accomplished with continuous, back-to-back scoutings, only requiring significantly less than "a couple of hundreds hours of time reductions" to fit all 5 in the 25 days of the event. If not, then we need to discuss additional problems confronting maximally advanced players beyond simply focusing on the difficulties of scouting.

Bottom line, my guess is that a maximally advanced player would need to use significantly fewer time boosts than you are considering.


Third, how much time boost using is acceptable? I don't know, some...? Should the reliance on time boosts be expected to be relatively uniform for all players in all circumstance? Is that reasonable? I don't think so. Good on Chapter 4, 8 and 12 players if they apparently have an easier time, needing fewer or no time boosts. Oh no on other players in other circumstances, that need or want to use more time boosts. That there is a continuum of circumstance that need or suggest time boost utilization would seem to be a fact of the game.

Also, what else is a maximally advanced player going to use time boosts on if not event quest items? Isn't the concept of a maximally advanced player that he really doesn't have much left to accomplish, Tech, Upgrades, productions.



Fourth, independent of the the above issues, what exactly are the rewards of the event to maximally advanced players? I'm nowhere's near there yet, so feel free to inform me if my views don't match yours and I'll reconsider, but what does one get for the guy who has everything, figuratively speaking. Is Stonehenge that great for him? Does he need to get the 12th, 14th, 16th, etc., grand prize buildings? Does he need more than 10 of the daily buildings, most of which are pure culture buildings this event? Is he really hurting for instants and enchantments and knowledge points that he has to open more than 100, 110, 120 chests?

Even if you complete the event, you still might not get a fully evolved Stonehenge. Even if you don't complete the event, you're going to get a bunch of Grand Prizes, Daily Prizes, instants, enchantments and KP. Nothing special happens at the end of event 115, just that you've maximized your Sun Burst collection. Is it really so important?
 

SoggyShorts

Necromancer
What else do you see as even remotely challenging for the end game player?
Honestly? Absolutely nothing in a very long time for me personally. That doesn't make "Scout only" quests any fun though.
They could double the questline and I could still complete it...but I wouldn't because the cost/effort doesn't align with the rewards.

What it comes down to for some advanced players is that it feels like you are punished for progress. Games should offer greater challenges as you progress, but progress should feel rewarding and the player should feel like their accomplishments are helping them with the new challenges, not hurting them.

Imagine an RPG where you work hard on optional content to gain a new sword but then every quest going forwards has an increased difficulty because of that sword. Kinda takes the reward out of things.
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For the record, I finished the event on Beta without using spoilers and about 5 expansions for turd town and I used around 100h of timers but most of that could have been cut if I used spoiler info(my scouts are only 50h).
 
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DeletedUser8981

Guest
I got the building that's supposed to give you extra sun pieces. I'm having issues of it not providing that, quite frequently unfortunately. Anyone have this issue and is there a fix to it?
 

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DeletedUser8921

Guest
I am a relatively new player who focuses on tournaments and events. I am about halfway finished with the research for chapter 3 and have 18 expansions placed (including the six beginning ones). I'm currently at quest 43 and should be around quest 50 in about a day and a half.

I don't foresee a huge problem completing this questline (although those combining catalysts are annoying, since my MA is level 3 and they take 15 hours each and darn it I keep accidentally clicking and collecting early!).

This is even though it's basically impossible for me to complete quests using the "tournament encounter" option that is relatively easy for more advanced players. I just don't have enough encounters (currently have 4 provinces of the current tournament unlocked; I had 2 when the tournament and event started). So I use the tournament to get relics and spells, but I complete encounters on the map for relatively low cost. And the scouting quests are easy peasy, since scouts take me about 30 minutes.

HOWEVER this is because at the beginning of the event I had 26 completed provinces, and about 30 provinces total scouted. I have to have 50 provinces completed in order to advance to chapter 4 anyway, so I'm basically doing scouting, encounters and collecting relics that I would have had to do anyway, in the rhythm of the event. I've also been holding off on some research completions and pouring KP into my AW in order to have lots of researches available to complete immediately anytime one of those quests come up. The scout or research quests present the opposite difficulty for me -- I have to decide which one is harder in case I want to "save" a "complete research" quest for when I'm unable to upgrade a level 14 building. (I'm going to upgrade a residence to level 11, which will then be my highest level structure.

I'm playing another much smaller account (9 expansions total, including the 6 beginning expansions) with no magic academy yet, and that is substantially more challenging, but I'm still able to progress and collect some flares - about half as many as with greater effort in my chapter 3 city. For the newb city I'll get some pretty nifty stuff from the event. Not maximum stuff (I don't want the henge building anyway), but things that will make my advancement much easier in the future.

All of which is to say, from the perspective of a pretty new player, this event is decently balanced from a gameplay perspective. I'm a bit disappointed in the Grand prizes, but the last few daily prizes look pretty cool.
 

MinMax Gamer

Illusionist
For the record, I finished the event on Beta without using spoilers and about 5 expansions for turd town and I used around 100h of timers but most of that could have been cut if I used spoiler info(my scouts are only 50h).
So basically, for a player who did everything right, there is a reasonable expectation of victory ;) You just said that end-game player does not have to have 5 day scouting times, but 2 days are quite possible (and that's more in line with what I would expect for chapter 14). I think we all can agree that end game player with 2 days scouting times and 5 scouting quests over 25 days should have no issues whatsoever (and your example confirms that).

Someone with 5 days scouting times massively overscouted. This means that they benefited from extra expansions, relics, KPs and runes - for which they paid with extended scouting times. That's extra benefit over someone like you who didn't scout that far. Just like in real life, extra benefits have a cost. But it was a choice they've made.

If you want to do a D&D RPG analogy, it's more like someone who pours all their available skill points into intelligence stat, and then they complain that their strength-based attributes like melee and carrying capacity suck big time. Well duh. They can be excellent spellcasters, but melee just won't be good - comparing to a more balanced build. That's by design.
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
5 day scouting times? I am pretty sure to do that you need to massively overscout - way more than Constructs min requirement of 360. Nothing's wrong with that, but it's a decision that player made, and it gained him/her even more space -> see above

I got the maximum expansions from the world map around a year ago. My scout times are 85 hours. The only world map provinces I have completed in the past year are for events - so this wasn't a free player choice. My massive overscouting is due to a game that keeps telling me I shouldn't overscout while issuing event quests that require me to overscout. Remember, we haven't had an advanced scout tech for a year because we are told we have scouted too much, yet we still get quests requiring us to scout.

I take @MinMax Gamer and @Sir Derf points about the large amount of t1 and WS production quests, more so than any event I can remember, and certainly more than the last rather easy event. These quests are easier for endgame players. I think we can safely say that early middle or late game, this event is harder than most and a LOT harder than the phoenix. Phoenix feels like a freak one off in difficulty.
 
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m4rt1n

Mentor
So I haven’t yet finished the Constructs and am about a week away so don’t have all the space mentioned. My scouts take 72 hours currently but am slowly working my way through. My biggest headache is with the t1 boost productions and not having 1 and 2 day production without building level 1 buildings and being steel boosted they are 100% bigger than the majority of players. Still I believe I will finish in the allotted time.
 

Sir Derf

Sage
Serious question - with 5 day scouting, I would think that all the Solve Encounter quests would be a bigger problem than I expect. 104 Encounters is 13 provinces, subtract the 4 scoutings requested before final quest means you need to have 9 provinces pre-scouted before the event starts, so prepped a month and a half ahead of time. Or do you substitute Tourney Encounters? There are 12 quests asking encounters, the last three asking for 60, 65 and 70 Tourney Encounters, or 15 or more tourney provinces each. Do you sometimes have to wait for a tourney to start? Do you sometimes have to wait for a second, or third, tourney round?
 

Sir Derf

Sage
From my notes, some might or might not include optional quests:

Quests
Solstice - 115, Phoenix - 114, then 134, Carnival - 85, Winter - 97

T1Boost (3, 9 24, 48)
Solstice - Quests 5, 5, 5, 3; Total 52, 45, 40, 19; Max 15, 13, 12, 9
P (134) - Quests 11, 7, 2, 2; Total 82, 52, 20, 12; Max 15, 12, 10, 6
Phoenix - Quests 9, 5, 0, 0; Total 52, 28, 0, 0; Max 10, 8, 0, 0
Carnival - Quests 5, 3, 3, 2; Total 39, 15, 10, 4; Max 15, 7, 5, 3
Winter - Quests 2, 2, 2, 0; Total 25, 21, 17, 0; Max 14, 12, 10, 0

All T1 (3, 9, 24, 48)
Carnival - Quests 2, 2, 0, 0; Total 3, 3, 0, 0; Max 2, 2, 0, 0
Winter - Quests 8, 4, 2, 0; Total 18, 8, 5, 0; Max 4, 3, 3, 0

Workshop (5, 15, 1, 3, 9, 24)
Solstice - Quests 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 5; Total 35, 31, 61, 49, 48, 39; Max 23, 19, 19, 13, 15, 11
P (134) - Quests 9, 12, 4, 2, 10, 5; Total 120, 215, 48, 14, 96, 53; Max 24, 27, 16, 8, 15, 20
Phoenix - Quests 9, 12, 4, 2, 8, 3; Total 120, 215, 48, 14, 66, 14; Max 24, 27, 16, 8, 15, 9
Carnival - Quests 4, 6, 3, 0, 3, 2; Total 121, 175, 25, 0, 16, 7; Max 60, 70, 12, 0, 8, 3
Winter - Quests 3, 3, 5, 5, 4, 2; Total 85, 65, 75, 55, 41, 15; Max 30, 30, 20, 15, 13, 9

Encounters (Normal/Tourney)
Solstice - Quests 12/12, Total 104/505, Max 15/75
P (134) - Quests 8/7, Total 65/250, Max 15/60
Phoenix - Quests 5/4, Total 29/70, Max 15/25
Carnival - Quests 3, Total 46, Max 20
Winter - Quests 5, Total 65, Max 18

Complete Provinces (Quests/Total)
Solstice - 4/5, P (134) 0/0, Phoenix 0/0, Carnival 0/0, Winter 2/2

Scout a Province (Quests/Total)
Solstice - 5/5, P (143) 6/7, Phoenix 4/4, Carnival 5/3, Winter 2/2

Relics
Solstice - Quests 9, Total 52, Max 9
P (134) - Quests 8, Total 102, Max 18
Phoenix - Quests 5, Total 48, Max 18
Carnival - Quests 3, Total 68, Max 32
Winter - Quests 5, Total 65, Max 18

KP (Buy/Spend)
Solstice - Quests 3/3, Total 22/22, Max 11/11
Phoenix - Quests 0/4, Total 0/38, Max 0/16
Carnival - Quests 2/6, Total 24/56, Max 16/20
Winter - Quests 5/6, Total 54/58, Max 19/16

Research Tech (Quests/Total)
Solstice - 13/13, P (134) - 4/9, Phoenix - 4/9, Carnival - 3/4, Winter 4/4

Gain Enchantments (Any/Combining Catalysts)
Solstice - Quests 6/7, Total 26/33, Max 7/7
Phoenix - Quests 3/0, Total 5/0, Max 3/0
Carnival - Quests 0/0, Total 0/0, Max 0/0
Winter - Quests 4/0, Total 18/0, Max 6/0
 

DeletedUser8921

Guest
I don't think I understand the "total" and "max" categories. Can you explain?
 
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