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Spire

MagicTasha

Adventurer
My FS is very active, and I might say, happy. We are 25 members and may of us would love to get the gold medal. We do get silver. Unfortunately because many end up using diamonds, not all want to go to the top, thus we dont get a gold medal. Could you change the requirements for the gold medal? Lets say if 75%-85% reached the top instead of 25 players?
 

buvau

Spellcaster
It would be nice to see reduced threshold, say, by 200pts (1130 pts in order to reach gold).

Currently requirements are too high and are causing too many frustrations.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
I don't necessarily object to the level gold is set as, but I think there is too much gap between silver and gold. I think more and more, going forwards, we will start to see most organised fellowships getting silver each week and only the dedicated few getting gold.

I think that if gold requires 1,330 points then silver should be 880, bronze could be 520. I'd then have a 4th level (what colour would that be?) at 110 points.

OK, how about this...

Platinum = 1,330 points
Gold = 880 points
Silver = 520 points
Bronze = 110 points
 

buvau

Spellcaster
The cost of map 3 is way too high.

As it stands, spire is becoming the most hated feature (it is my opinion). Not every player can do all maps, it is impossible to get gold if one or two players do not participate (in practice not in theory) and the cost/rewards ratio is rather very poor.

Now, with the current spire requirements, if FS wants to go for gold, they should not accept small players at all (it is related to another topic, e.g. making this game more appealing to small/newer players).
 

Julian

Scholar
I agree that gold is set too high. Also, the third level is extremely difficult and the rewards are not proportionately better. However, it does have some good rewards (spell fragments aside). I find it far more useful than the tournaments. Now I'm in the Elvenar chapter, KPs aren't that useful.
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
My FS is very active, and I might say, happy. We are 25 members and may of us would love to get the gold medal. We do get silver. Unfortunately because many end up using diamonds, not all want to go to the top, thus we dont get a gold medal. Could you change the requirements for the gold medal? Lets say if 75%-85% reached the top instead of 25 players?
The cost of map 3 is way too high.

As it stands, spire is becoming the most hated feature (it is my opinion). Not every player can do all maps, it is impossible to get gold if one or two players do not participate (in practice not in theory) and the cost/rewards ratio is rather very poor.

Now, with the current spire requirements, if FS wants to go for gold, they should not accept small players at all (it is related to another topic, e.g. making this game more appealing to small/newer players).
The first 2 stages should not cost any diamonds at worst 25 diamonds at the final boss of the second stage.
If you fail the first time, retreat and try again.

The 3rd stage you need 50-100 diamonds at max 25 diamonds for each boss, if you cannot guarantee a sure victory retreat and try again untill you can guarantee that with 25 diamonds you will have victory. no diamonds should be spend in the 6 goods minigame.

Try to arrange special "gold" weeks where everyone goes for it,
Another trick / cheat you can use is to guarantee gold for a little bit, this way people are more willing to reach the top.
While is sounds lame it might be an excellent tool to get over that dead zone, as they developers seems to be willing to look away from it.
This has been openly shown of the DE server from week 1 (guilds getting scores of 4000 points!), and they are not willing to patch it.

For this you need:
  • 1 free spot in the guild
  • Several chapter 3 or higher second accounts without a guild that your fellows have to hang around:
Once a player leaves the guild the tower points stay with your guild, the trick is to swap in and out these accounts for additional points to guarantee the gold medal. While lame I have seen several guilds use this method to get the guild to the point where they can reach gold stable without the help of these accounts.
Once players are guaranteed those 125 diamonds at the top, they seem to be more willingness to strive for it, resulting in a pretty big jump for overall guild score as more people jump in to the top.

If I have some extra free time I might translate this post to english and post it here:
This is my explanation how the tower works and what it's advantages are.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
I don't necessarily object to the level gold is set as, but I think there is too much gap between silver and gold. I think more and more, going forwards, we will start to see most organised fellowships getting silver each week and only the dedicated few getting gold.

I think that if gold requires 1,330 points then silver should be 880, bronze could be 520. I'd then have a 4th level (what colour would that be?) at 110 points.

OK, how about this...

Platinum = 1,330 points
Gold = 880 points
Silver = 520 points
Bronze = 110 points
I keep asking for a platinum at 1575.
1330 is something we do every week without looking (we usually land between 1500 and max, unless people are gone the entire week). So I personally am against devalueing the gold medal even further.
However I would not be against splitting up the rewards into more WP that can then be more evenly spread over the range, to make lower achieving FS have manageable steps to overcome on the way to becoming better.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
1330 is something we do every week without looking (we usually land between 1500 and max, unless people are gone the entire week). So I personally am against devalueing the gold medal even further.
This becomes a matter of semantics. 1,330 can still be called gold, but then you would just need a colour underneath bronze for my idea.
I keep asking for a platinum at 1575.
I would be cautious about asking for the maximum achievement award to be raised. Typically a move like that would come with diluting the prizes for all, but the super-elite. It doesn't have to, but probably would. It's like when people ask for an 11th tournament chest. Where would the blueprint be then?

1,575 may be possible, but on my server we have about 3 or 4 fellowships getting gold, then probably another 50 or so getting silver. Setting the award levels at 1,330, 880 and 520 would just split those 50 fellowships into two and that seems quite sensible to me. With so few getting gold I wouldn't see a particular urgency to split off the occasional fellowship who can push it still further.
 

buvau

Spellcaster
At times spire can be very challenging (huge amount of goods or troops might be lost) with very little gain. For me personally, 125 diamonds and few extra time boosts are poor reward for the effort required. 125 diamonds alone are not enough to upgrade any of the buildings in the city (magic or evolving). If somebody is using diamonds to negotiate that rewards becomes absolutely minimal. In summary, poor rewards requiring disproportionate efforts.

I play this game following the idea that the further I progress, the easier this game will become. So far it looks like it might be other way around :)
If spire does not make sense (no time, poor rewards, excessive efforts to get gold - there is no need to push every player in FS, this game already has major struggles with activity), FSAs are a joke, evolving buildings not worth placing as upgrades will become impossible to due lack of diamonds (paying to play this game would be ridiculous considering the amount required to do anything here), etc. What is the point of playing? :)

I appreciate the advise re smaller cities toping up the points... It looks that if players want to be successful they need to run smaller cities (workarounds are almost given due to poor design). I already hesitate that I spend too much time here on repetitive tasks, few extra diamonds will not change the overall experience with this game, which is rather poor :)
 

Pauly7

Mentor
At times spire can be very challenging (huge amount of goods or troops might be lost) with very little gain. For me personally, 125 diamonds and few extra time boosts are poor reward for the effort required. 125 diamonds alone are not enough to upgrade any of the buildings in the city (magic or evolving). If somebody is using diamonds to negotiate that rewards becomes absolutely minimal. In summary, poor rewards requiring disproportionate efforts.
The final boss prize for the 3rd stage of the Spire continues to be confusing. Stage 1 and 2 can net you a Magic Residence or Magic Workshop, respectively. Each can potentially be worth several thousand diamonds.

That being said, I play the Spire to the top, but I don't do it for the final stage prize. The reward is in the team payout. The more 5 hour instants you can win in the Spire, the more troops you can produce in the barracks, which means the more tournament provinces you can complete, which means lots and lots of extra KP won... and as I said in a different thread today - KP makes the Elvenar world go round.

evolving buildings not worth placing as upgrades will become impossible to due lack of diamonds (paying to play this game would be ridiculous considering the amount required to do anything here), etc. What is the point of playing? :)
Evolving buildings (or any buildings) are not directly upgraded with diamonds. The trick is to be winning blueprints to be converted into Royal Restoration spells. In order to improve a team's tournament scores to win the blueprints... you need the time boosters from the Spire. You mention evolving buildings - these provide all the necessary coins and supplies for Spire play... It's all one big circle.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
It doesn't have to, but probably would. It's like when people ask for an 11th tournament chest. Where would the blueprint be then?
Now this is a very good point. I have actually never said I want the prizes to move anywhere, I am only talking about the medals, I am happy to leave the prizes just where they are. I want a platinum at the top, yes, doesn´t have to contain any prizes at all for me personally. I like a challenge and having a platinum at the top is enough for me lol, I will go for it. A medal for a FS that has 25 finishers is something worth having. A medal for something that is no challenge at all is trash. there need to be challenges for all levels, including the very highest level. And yes a Silver medal can be a great achievement for a FS that has never made it that far. It is valuable for them and the should be proud of it! But for us, we often have silver before I remember to look at the ranking screen (am I supposed to feel proud about that?). Gold is something that is achieved long before I ever finish my spire (I don´t time boost, just play along slowly). So when I finally get into the hot phase the whole thing is over. The only question is if I am last or 3rd last to finish lol. Not much of an achievement... If I can be the one to get us the platinum medal, I am having much more fun :)

Same for tourney chests past 10. I would love them! They can be empty for all I care (or contain little somethings for the sake of it, say a 5 squad troop instant or whatever they want throw in). Just having chests at 50k, 100k, 200k (1 every 100k). would be fun to have as a goal to work towards. Then low achieving FS can´t complain about prizes they never get and the high achieveing ones can compete against and challenge each other to do better. Tourney rewards are insane as it is, I don´t need more, but I do need more goals and challenges (we just did our first 300k points tourney).
 

Gargon667

Scholar
Evolving buildings (or any buildings) are not directly upgraded with diamonds. The trick is to be winning blueprints to be converted into Royal Restoration spells. In order to improve a team's tournament scores to win the blueprints... you need the time boosters from the Spire. You mention evolving buildings - these provide all the necessary coins and supplies for Spire play... It's all one big circle.
But if you don´t have any blueprints, you can buy the crafting recipe with diamonds, so actually you can upgrade event buildings with diamonds (I do it all the time, waiting for blueprints would take ages lol). 300 Diamonds per blueprint. 900 diamonds for 30 RRs
 

CrazyWizard

Scholar
I keep asking for a platinum at 1575.
1330 is something we do every week without looking (we usually land between 1500 and max, unless people are gone the entire week). So I personally am against devalueing the gold medal even further.
However I would not be against splitting up the rewards into more WP that can then be more evenly spread over the range, to make lower achieving FS have manageable steps to overcome on the way to becoming better.
This sounds the same as asking for an 11th chest in the tournaments for a mere 500.000 tournament points.
Some realism should applied, 25 players at the top of the tower should never ever be a standard.
 

Pauly7

Mentor
But if you don´t have any blueprints, you can buy the crafting recipe with diamonds, so actually you can upgrade event buildings with diamonds (I do it all the time, waiting for blueprints would take ages lol). 300 Diamonds per blueprint. 900 diamonds for 30 RRs
Right... but diamonds aren't required to upgrade an evolving building, was my point.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
This sounds the same as asking for an 11th chest in the tournaments for a mere 500.000 tournament points.
Some realism should applied, 25 players at the top of the tower should never ever be a standard.
Absolutely not the standard! It should be the absolutely top achievement possible!

maybe for some a once-in-a-lifetime achievement. Is a silly empty medal asked too much for that?

And 500.000 should definitely be one, yes! It would be a silly big step from 40k to 500k, hence I ask for one every 100k. We already have 300k. So yes I certainly want higher goals than that.
 

Gargon667

Scholar
1,575 may be possible, but on my server we have about 3 or 4 fellowships getting gold, then probably another 50 or so getting silver. Setting the award levels at 1,330, 880 and 520 would just split those 50 fellowships into two and that seems quite sensible to me. With so few getting gold I wouldn't see a particular urgency to split off the occasional fellowship who can push it still further.
Ah I just saw this part: This is very surprising! I am playing EN3 exclusively, the youngest little backwater of the ENs. And we have I think 7 FS that get gold (maybe not all of them every week, but still). I always assumed EN1 and EN2 should have far more grown up FS capable of this!
At least for tourneys I know that EN1 used to be far ahead in tourney scores to us (until this week anyway). I guess I assumed the same for the spire...
 

buvau

Spellcaster
In order to improve a team's tournament scores to win the blueprints... you need the time boosters from the Spire. You mention evolving buildings - these provide all the necessary coins and supplies for Spire play... It's all one big circle.
I do not agree with this statement, because it depends on the strategy of individual player and design of the city. This game is really primitive and multiple features are based on numbers (no need to spend months playing in order to understand how it works; actually, many games have similar elements).

Theoretical example: FS gets 10 chests, every player in FS contributes equal amount of points and stops as soon as 10 chests goal is reached. The amount of troops required to do this can be easily produced without any time boosts. So spire is redundant feature in this scenario.

I do spire 3 maps and know very well the costs. With the amount of PPs given in the spire (every week I get few of them - most common award), one cannot expect that player will spend months and months doing, say, dwarves chapter. So yes, diamonds are used to buy blueprints, if player decides to do so. Again, it depends on individual strategy.

Finally, repetitive, routine tasks like weekly spire, tournaments, endless events pushing development of the city into the last place (I am not talking about the players in the last chapters) is not the form of entertainment I like. Same applies to the time required.

I will repeat once again, map 3 in the spire is way too expensive to do, even taking into consideration potential rewards for gold medal. I would advocate to make this stage easier and decrease the amount of the points to reach the gold medal, so that FS could achieve it when one or two players are not available. Implying that only those who are lurking here every day can do tournaments 10 chests and/or spire gold will not generate more interest, for players like I it will have completely opposite effect. In a way I would like to see the spire similar to the tournaments, e.g. allowing players to play wihtout pressure and without penalizing whole team. For those who have too much time on their hands, there can be always another layer of rewards - extra ranking points. Everybody is happy then :)
 

Pauly7

Mentor
I do not agree with this statement, because it depends on the strategy of individual player and design of the city. This game is really primitive and multiple features are based on numbers (no need to spend months playing in order to understand how it works; actually, many games have similar elements).

Theoretical example: FS gets 10 chests, every player in FS contributes equal amount of points and stops as soon as 10 chests goal is reached. The amount of troops required to do this can be easily produced without any time boosts. So spire is redundant feature in this scenario.
Doing less of anything costs less. The strategy of scoring 1,600 points and stopping in the tournament does not even begin to tap the benefits of playing them. Having an extra 500KP in the week is the reward for playing them. In order to consistently do that then the best way to pay for the troop requirements is by picking up a lot of time boosters in the Spire. If the prize at the top of the Spire was 500KP then I am sure you would agree that would be fair compensation for the effort.
Finally, repetitive, routine tasks like weekly spire, tournaments, endless events pushing development of the city into the last place (I am not talking about the players in the last chapters) is not the form of entertainment I like. Same applies to the time required.
But this is the problem. You are not keen to spend long periods of time playing in the Spire or playing the tournaments. There is nothing wrong with that. If so don't play the top level of the Spire and don't push further in the tournaments, but you can't say that the top level of the Spire is not worth the reward for those who do like to put the time into both disciplines. Those people can be well rewarded.