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Discussion Spire of Eternity

DeletedUser6357

Guest
I selected coins for all five ghosts.
To me, that's a low bet.
I came across the following situation with 6 resources:
RES1 RES2 RES3 RES4 RES5 RES6
The ghosts refused 4 of them.
If the ghosts' requests are
RES1 RES2 RES3 RES4 RES5 RES6
in three possible moves, negotiations will never be won - coins are RES1.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Picture this:
The ghosts want coins, supplies, marble, marble, marble.
You offer coins, marble, steel, steel, steel.

What does the second ghost say?

The Elvenar implementation does the analysis in two passes, first determining all the Correct guesses, and then analyzing the remaining offers based on the remaining ghosts, thus telling you Correct, Nobody, Nobody, Nobody, Nobody. Having removed the first ghost's desire from the second pass of analysis, the second ghost's "Nobody" now clears ghosts 3, 4 and 5 from the possibility of also wanting Coins.
 

Killiak

Artisan
So far I have been fighting on manual (with pet food buff), and today I placed some boosters as well (Unleashed + Mage Multi).
Not a whole lot of losses, although the enormous squad sizes do actually hurt in that regard.

The real problem I experience is that the rewards do not, no matter how I look at it, justify these costs. The only thing I find interesting is the Moonstone set, because a source of 'free' fragments and CC spells appeals to me. Everything else is simply too expensive, especially so beyond the first map.

Looks like I will just be doing map 1 untill it gets rebalanced.
 

Paladestar

Enchanter
Did the first level then looked at the squad sizes needed for the first fight on the second level and just laughed and closed the spire. I don't plan to go back.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
Question about the negotiation game.

I selected coins for all five ghosts. One was apparently correct, as it gave no message and had a green check mark. The other four it was apparently not correct, as each gave a message - "Nobody needs it." it's a little disconcerting, from my memories of playing Mastermind. I was expecting the other four to say "Wrong person", as while they didn't want coins, there is/was someone who did. Thinking about it, however, this does give a little more information.

It'll just take a little getting used to.

Yes, I am sure. My first post was prompted by the clearly unexpected behavior in a circumstance where there would be no confusion.

I will post a screen capture should either circumstance arrive, upholding or disproving my position.
 

Sir Derf

Mentor
If you want confirmation, I just watched the video that INNO did introducing the Spire. During their demonstration of negotiating, the following negotiation is conducted with three resources, starting at 3:13 into the video:

Ghost 1 Ghost 2 Ghost 3 Ghost 4 Ghost 5
Wants Steel Supplies Steel Supplies Coins

Offered Coins Coins Supplies Supplies Steel
Said Wrong Wrong Wrong :) Wrong

Offered Supplies Supplies Steel Coins
Said Nobody :) :) :)

Offered Steel
Said :)

Notice the response of Ghost 1 in the second round. Ghost 2 just accepted Supplies that same round, but that is no longer being considered when Ghost 1 is giving his feedback. He says "Nobody", not "Wrong person".

We can only determine if this is bug or feature if INNO gave a complete description of their intended implementation. From my original posting, this is not how I remember playing Mastermind in my youth, but that does not mean that this behavior is unintended by INNO.

As I pointed out earlier, this behavior gives a little more information, a little less ambiguity, than what I had expected. I'll take every advantage I can get.

/PublicServiceAnnouncement

[video-"TheMoreYouKnow"]

*Edit - here, I go to all the trouble to switch to fixed-width font to align my columns, and I manually include smileys and all the white-space is condensed. D'oh! I'm not changing it.
 

FieryArien

Necromancer
After playing with Spire a bit yesterday and today, I’ve got the following feedback: The 21 hours production time on the Moonstone Library set buildings is absolutely AWESOME. With such a cycle I could be picking up the goods every morning no matter if it’s workday (earlier) or weekend/holidays (later). Someone else can do the same “before they go to sleep”, or “around lunchtime” etc. It’s effectively 24 hours production time with 3 hours buffer to pick up the goodies. I’m just loving this concept!

(As for Spire itself, I’ll wait with possible feedback till later.)
 

C-Nymph

Scholar
So far I have been fighting on manual (with pet food buff), and today I placed some boosters as well (Unleashed + Mage Multi).
Not a whole lot of losses, although the enormous squad sizes do actually hurt in that regard.

The real problem I experience is that the rewards do not, no matter how I look at it, justify these costs. The only thing I find interesting is the Moonstone set, because a source of 'free' fragments and CC spells appeals to me. Everything else is simply too expensive, especially so beyond the first map.

Looks like I will just be doing map 1 untill it gets rebalanced.

Exactly this.
The spire has some potentially interesting rewards (Genie, Moonstone Set), but the costs are in no way in proportion to the gains. Maybe if the rewards per chest were ALL given instead of just one of the three/four possible options it might be worth it. But at this moment, it is not.
The squad sizes are insanely big, which means we're all burning through our troops at an alarming rate. And if you negotiate, you're burning though your stacks of goods extremely fast.

If Inno wants people to choose between Spire and Tourney then this is the way, because for sure it is not possible to keep doing both week after week.

So yes, I will also be focussing on map one only, in hopes of completing the Moonstone Set after a couple months maybe... I wonder if the Genie is even a possible reward in Map 1 though...
 

DeletedUser441

Guest
The squad sizes become ridiculously large as we progress up the Spire and the chances of guessing the diplomacy requirements in 3 goes when there are 5 spirits and 6 types of "goods" which can be needed any number of times is impossible without sheer luck. It seems a ploy to get us spending diamonds and the rewards are really not worth it.:(:rolleyes::mad:
 

Tiriake

Soothsayer
I think the spire has potential, but with how expensive it is, it's just not worth the effort. One of my fellows said that he read that the difficulty depends on your wonders. Is that right? If it is, then I can stop even thinking about trying :D and so much for the "build wonders, they are good for your city".
 

Julian

Sorcerer
On further reflection, this is slightly more helpful behavior than how I remember playing Mastermind in my youth.

Picture this:
The ghosts want coins, supplies, marble, marble, marble.
You offer coins, coins, steel, steel, steel.

My Mastermind implementation, which does the analysis in a single pass, would tell you Correct, Someone, Nobody, Nobody, Nobody; the second ghost's "Someone", caused by the first ghost's desire, spills over to potentially implicate ghosts 3, 4 and 5 as also wanting Coins.

The Elvenar implementation does the analysis in two passes, first determining all the Correct guesses, and then analyzing the remaining offers based on the remaining ghosts, thus telling you Correct, Nobody, Nobody, Nobody, Nobody. Having removed the first ghost's desire from the second pass of analysis, the second ghost's "Nobody" now clears ghosts 3, 4 and 5 from the possibility of also wanting Coins.
Yes, it should perhaps say "Nobody ELSE needs it" Those who have already got it don't count.
 

Tiriake

Soothsayer
According to Marindor, on the Beta, only a teeny weensy bit. So keep building those wonders, they are very beneficial.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not planning to stop building and upgrading wonders. Not going to bother with the spire though. I can see how draining it already is. No point in putting the effort in, except maybe some encounters on level 1.
 

VallyStarr

Dreamer
I'm joining everyone who is saying they won't be bothering with this new feature. I personally would be going for it if the number of rounds at negotiations would increase as the number of possible goods goes up, so that it would always be possible to work out the right combination with logic, not luck. Keep it to the minimum necessary to puzzle it out, so that it will take some thinking and right tactics, leaving in the option to buy another turn if one screwed up.

I understand this is meant as a Diamond sink, but the rewards are simply not worth the price, thus I can't imagine many people using the feature. It's a shame for all the wasted effort, but the way it stands now, the Spire is a bust.
 

DeletedUser7032

Guest
the spire thing needs to be made cheaper to compete in to make it an interesting prospect..... at the moment its just not feesible to complete with the amount of goods and troops it chews up
 
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