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Spire of Eternity

DeletedUser8632

Guest
You can win CCs in the Academy? Beyond the 4 per day that can be crafted? How?

You can win the buildings in the Academy? How?

So what if level 2 is expensive - don't do it if its too expensive! Do you do 100% of your Tournament provinces to 6* every week? If not, why not?

Ok, I will try this again and type slowly this time:

I said: Everything in L1 (L1 = Level 1 or Stage 1) I can get from the Magic Academy. There I may be blind but I haven't been able to see CCs in the first stage of the Spire. And I certainly haven't seen buildings in stage 1 of the spire.

All these nice goodies are in Stage 2 of the Spire, buildings even later - which you yourself just said "Don't do it if it is too expensive".

So what again is the point of the Spire for me?

And for the record: Comparing the Spire and Tournaments is - what is the technical term? - fatuitous.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Sorry what do you mean as the first stage of the Spire? I thought that you meant the first map, which includes all prizes that can be won but did you mean the first encounter? Or before the first gate? Most players here seem to confirm they can complete the first map which offers every prize the Spire has to offer including CCs, Time Instants and Buildings.

Spire and Tournament are the two things we can each week throw our military and resources at in order to win resources that why critics and fans alike are comparing it.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
If you can't complete even Map 1 then Spire provides an inspiration to work to upgrade your military or production output so that you can complete it. Its a challenge that you can work towards and since its available every week if you can't do it now you can work to do it next week or next month. Map 1 doesn't take that many resources.
 

DeletedUser8632

Guest
If you can't complete even Map 1 then Spire provides an inspiration to work to upgrade your military or production output so that you can complete it. Its a challenge that you can work towards and since its available every week if you can't do it now you can work to do it next week or next month. Map 1 doesn't take that many resources.

I'm telling you - as a player of Chapter 8 - even the first Map of the Spire is forbiddingly expensive. And I'm not a moron. 4 fully upgraded T1, 4 fully upgraded T2, enough T3 from event buildings like I had 3 fully upgraded factories. 3 fully upgraded armories, fully upgraded barracks. Needles, Bulwark at least at level 6. I run 3 hour productions and my barracks are idle about 2 hours in 24 hours.

And its still not doable. Fighting will wipe out 30 stacks of each of my troops. Easily. Unless I go through the utterly painful, tedious and frankly ridiculous exercise of manual fight there is no way to finish the Spire in combat and still have anything left for Provinces. Or tournaments.

And negotiating? Dude, successfully negotiating map 1 of the spire costs DOUBLE the amount of resources of the ALL THE RESEARCH cost in Chapter 8.

So how?

Edit for clarity: I was referring to the first gate. Not the first map. Anything beyond the first gate is too expensive for somebody who is not end-game, still needs to spend resources a lot of resources on research, still needs to spend a lot of resources on upgrades and still has to fight in provinces. In other words, you can EITHER do the Spire OR improve your city. But not both.
 
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DeletedUser8409

Guest
How? If you want genuine advice there's plenty of tricks.

1: Save up - your resources and troops don't expire.
2: Build more manufactories
3: Cast Magical Manufacturing on your manufactories.
4: Build another Armory so your barracks is never idle - this would increase your military output by 10%
5: Upgrade your AWs
6: Manually fight battles so your losses are reduced. The fact you called manual fighting "tedious" when there are only 4 fights per gate speaks wonders.
7: Learn the tricks to manually fighting and catering - I seriously doubt sucessfully negotiating map 1 is remotely that expensive unless you're not putting any logic into minimising losses.

30 stacks of units? That's doable. In my experience it didn't matter what chapter I was in, I produced 1 squad of units per hour so you are talking just over a days prodution.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Just seen your edit. I wasn't always end-game, I only reached end-game recently. 95% of my time in this game I was not end-game and always was able to produce more units and more squads and more resources than I needed. Perhaps because I didn't find all facets of the game like manual fighting to be "utterly painful, tedious and frankly ridiculous". Trying to manually fight 50 provinces in the tournament end-game when every province is fought 4 times would be that, its 200 encounters, but in the spire you only have to fight 4 encounters in total per gate. If you don't have the patience to manually fight just 4 encounters then don't blame the game for that.

EDIT: That wasn't meant to come across as narky, sorry if it did.

If you want serious advice look at my prior post. I took a look at your city and first thing I noticed was the abundant empty space. You have plenty of space to build new residences, manufactories and armories. Elvenstats is a great resource to check how efficient your city is being ran, currently you have 168 (9% of your city) tiles of manufactories and 381 (20% of your city) empty tiles of empty space. Literally your empty space is well over double all your manufactories put together. If you compact your city together as if this was a game of Tetris you will be able to produce much, much more.

https://www.elvenstats.com/player/en1/1703663
 
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DeletedUser8632

Guest
How? If you want genuine advice there's plenty of tricks.

1: Save up - your resources and troops don't expire.
2: Build more manufactories
3: Cast Magical Manufacturing on your manufactories.
4: Build another Armory so your barracks is never idle - this would increase your military output by 10%
5: Upgrade your AWs
6: Manually fight battles so your losses are reduced. The fact you called manual fighting "tedious" when there are only 4 fights per gate speaks wonders.
7: Learn the tricks to manually fighting and catering - I seriously doubt sucessfully negotiating map 1 is remotely that expensive unless you're not putting any logic into minimising losses.

30 stacks of units? That's doable. In my experience it didn't matter what chapter I was in, I produced 1 squad of units per hour so you are talking just over a days prodution.

Again, please, do consider that this may not as easy as it seems. You are in the middle of Orcs, half your city and every single nook and cranny is filled with mushrooms farms and rally points. Build more factories AND build more Armories? Right, because population and space is infinite. Do you not think I would if I had the population and culture? And of course, upgrading AWs is a great way to improve stuff. Just need some extra KP after taking care of my regular research. Hmm.. where could I get more KP? Oh right! From tournaments. Sadly I don't have troops now anymore for tournaments because I used them in the spire.

And yes, you are right. Manual fight will make a difference. However, I already spend a lot of time in my life with doing things I despise. I don't need a game to add to that. Manual fight is an utterly unrewarding, tedious and pointless exercise. There are no secrets to manual fighting nor is there any skill required once you know how to abuse the terrain and the frighteningly stupid AI. But just because its easy I shouldn't be forced to do it. Pushing a rusty nail through my eyeball doesn't require much skill either - I'm still not going to spend considerable time doing it.

And yes, negotiating DOES in fact require that many resources. Not because its difficult - heck, its an awkwardly implemented game of mastermind - but because the ratio between what you can reasonably produce at that chapter and what it costs is completely ridiculous.
 

DeletedUser8632

Guest
Edit to your edit: Neither is mine. Well, it is really snarky but not directed at you. My position is this: The Spire is not a mid-game feature. Which is sad because I'd expect a company like Inno to implement something that can be enjoyable for all players. The Spire is not.

Also: I'm gonna stop arguing with you now because I think we both have valid points but different perspectives. Also because I'm drunk :)
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Again, please, do consider that this may not as easy as it seems. You are in the middle of Orcs, half your city and every single nook and cranny is filled with mushrooms farms and rally points. Build more factories AND build more Armories? Right, because population and space is infinite. Do you not think I would if I had the population and culture? And of course, upgrading AWs is a great way to improve stuff. Just need some extra KP after taking care of my regular research. Hmm.. where could I get more KP? Oh right! From tournaments. Sadly I don't have troops now anymore for tournaments because I used them in the spire.

And yes, you are right. Manual fight will make a difference. However, I already spend a lot of time in my life with doing things I despise. I don't need a game to add to that. Manual fight is an utterly unrewarding, tedious and pointless exercise. There are no secrets to manual fighting nor is there any skill required once you know how to abuse the terrain and the frighteningly stupid AI. But just because its easy I shouldn't be forced to do it. Pushing a rusty nail through my eyeball doesn't require much skill either - I'm still not going to spend considerable time doing it.

And yes, negotiating DOES in fact require that many resources. Not because its difficult - heck, its an awkwardly implemented game of mastermind - but because the ratio between what you can reasonably produce at that chapter and what it costs is completely ridiculous.
You forget that Orcs is not new to me. I did Orcs. I did it when it was harder as Portal Profits didn't exist. And my city looked completely different to yours.

I chose the "hardcore" method of doing Orcs in Elvengems chapter description. I sold every single culture building. Yes 100% of them. Of course this was before I had won any Sets and before RRs existed, so I would not recommend you sell Carnival. But you have plenty of space. You don't have every nook and cranny filled. You have nearly 400 tiles empty, which is basically more than 15 empty expansions.

First thing to do is rearrange your city and compact it. Then either fill it with Mushroom Farms to get through Orcs quicker, or build more manufactories, residences and armories. Then you'll be able to afford stuff you can't currently.

The challenges are scaled by chapter. If you're efficient you can do well.
 

DeletedUser8632

Guest
You forget that Orcs is not new to me. I did Orcs. I did it when it was harder as Portal Profits didn't exist. And my city looked completely different to yours.

I chose the "hardcore" method of doing Orcs in Elvengems chapter description. I sold every single culture building. Yes 100% of them. Of course this was before I had won any Sets and before RRs existed, so I would not recommend you sell Carnival. But you have plenty of space. You don't have every nook and cranny filled. You have nearly 400 tiles empty, which is basically more than 15 empty expansions.

First thing to do is rearrange your city and compact it. Then either fill it with Mushroom Farms to get through Orcs quicker, or build more manufactories, residences and armories. Then you'll be able to afford stuff you can't currently.

The challenges are scaled by chapter. If you're efficient you can do well.

Look, lets not fight but: If I do THAT, do you think I'd have the resources to do research, upgrades and tournaments AND the Spire? Mind you, I'm very well aware of the "Negative culture fast track" - but right now I'm struggling to upgrade enough buildings to do well in the next event. Trust me, I had different plans for my city. I can delete my culture buildings but have you noticed I only have cult/pop? I do that I lose all the population I need to get my workshops and factories to appropriate level. I also lose the pop to upgrade my armories.
And I know you didn't have PP back then, nor AWKPs - did you also have this continuous onslaught of Events?

Also, I refuse to be bullied into playing a game I like in a way that annoys me (thats not targeted at your advice)
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
Yes.

If you play efficiently I believe you can do research, upgrades and tournament and the spire. 100% yes I do believe you can. Not necessarily to complete all 3 maps of the spire, nor all provinces of tournament to 6 star. But could you complete Map 1 and regularly achieve a good score on Tournament? Yes, yes you can. I know players of that chapter who are doing so.
 

Timneh

Artisan
@randblade @tesla333 You both make valid points but it looks like you are never going to agree so maybe it would be best if you agree to disagree and stop debate before it turns into an arguement. Just my two pennies worth.
 

DeletedUser8409

Guest
I was trying to offer advice to help a fellow player not win an argument. But I'm happy to leave the matter here.
 

MinMax Gamer

Illusionist
So while I might think that doing level 1 of the Spire would be forth it for...let's say 12 CC, there is no guaranty I will get them. I might end up with 3000k SF and I don't need them so all my effort was not worth it for me. That s the main problem of the Spire imo.
By that reasoning, Wishing Wells are also pretty useless, as in theory you might not get any diamonds from them at all, and waste all the space and event daily draws for no valuable benefit. But if you put enough of them and collect regularly, your diamond collections will converge to expected values (10% IIRC) - even though that is indeed not guaranteed.

Spire is the same - play it long enough, and the rewards that you will get from there would correspond to expected percentages in aggregate. Any single run might indeed be very different - but that goes both ways. Sometimes you win a lot more from a single run, sometimes... not so much.
 

Hekata

Summoner
By that reasoning, Wishing Wells are also pretty useless, as in theory you might not get any diamonds from them at all, and waste all the space and event daily draws for no valuable benefit. But if you put enough of them and collect regularly, your diamond collections will converge to expected values (10% IIRC) - even though that is indeed not guaranteed.

Spire is the same - play it long enough, and the rewards that you will get from there would correspond to expected percentages in aggregate. Any single run might indeed be very different - but that goes both ways. Sometimes you win a lot more from a single run, sometimes... not so much.

True you can sometimes win more than expected in the Spire but given the percentage to get building sets and other valuable items chances are you won't be that lucky often (if ever). The difference with wells is that I don't have to waste resources to get them. I just get them from completing quests in events. With the current system you get at least 2, or more if you go for them as daily prizes. And I don't have to keep investing resources into wells to get those diamonds. They either appear or they don't. Also diamonds are not the only thing I like to get from wells, I am very happy to get kps and those come much more often. Plus, because I don't like relying on luck too much, I have a very limited amount of wells, just 4 (no second account with a diamond farm either), that's the amount of space I am willing to allocate to them for the possibility of that little extra bonus. And I have buckets of them in store. Maybe if I ever get to the end of the tech tree I will make use of that extra space and put some more while I wait for the next chapter, but for now this is enough.
In the end I'll just have to agree with all the players that said maybe LV1 is ok-ish to do and hope you get lucky to get something nice in a mystery chest, beyond that it costs too much and for rewards that are not worth it.
 

DeletedUser1874

Guest
Gating a useful feature that would've breathed some fresh air amidst all the discontent behind the poorly implemented, unfun, diamond and resources sink that is the Spire... brilliant. Oh, and RNG of course. I'm really looking forward to waste time, diamonds and resources in the hopes of getting some teleports only to be handed back half of the diamonds I spent or a 5% portal boost, or thousands of spell fragments I can't use because the ratios for CCs are horrible and even with a level 5 MA producing CCs 24/7 one can't keep up - it's gonna be great. I'm being snide and sarcastic, by the way. I feel like it's better to state it outright these days. Wouldn't wanna be misunderstood.
 

LazyTony

Sorcerer
I guess I'm in a tiny minority, but I find the spire to be a useful place to convert decaying and maximum limited resources (sentient goods, mana, seeds, coins, supplies) into something useful - some time boosters, more fragments than I could ever use and the odd helpful building. Mid chapter when those resources are needed my decision will most likely be different, but I am spending stuff I can't hoard and is no use to me and I am not compromising my tourney scores by spending troops.
 

DeletedUser9227

Guest
People is comparing Spire with tournament and I surely understand their reasons. But from different view, I see the Spire as an alternative for players who don't do tourney that much or be in non-active FS, like me. Most active FSs have rules and requirements I can't (or don't want to) meet. So I kinda more enjoy events and the Spire where I can play at my own pace. I think variety of game features is important because players play the game in different ways.

Speaking of cost/reward, it's not as bad as it seemed (at least for me). After 4 weeks I managed to win one full Moonstone set and one Genie, plus some others useful stuffs such as CC, time boosts, and a few diamonds. You don't have to complete all 3 level to win these prizes. I always end up somewhere in level 2. I'm not endgame player, just entering Woodelves, so it doable for mid- game players as well.

All in all, I like the spire and think it will get better. Inno just added new spell in reward chests and I believe they will keep adding more interesting reward after. Thanks Inno.
 

Hekata

Summoner
I'm a bit confused. A new Spire just appeared but with no teleport spell anywhere on the first level. The notification did say it will be available from Monday 23th so tomorrow. But what happens now? Will the teleport appear tomorrow instead of some other prizes and it's better to not play until then? Or will the whole Spire reset tomorrow regardless of our progress and we can start from the beginning?
 

davemc

Bard
Im thinking the same myself might do the first couple of encounters then wait till tomorrow. see what happens. find it quite easy for the fighting but only whilst tournaments are on and have fire phoenix upgraded and any relevant troop boosters going
 
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